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Humbert
Lindon
Nov 10 2007, 4:54pm
Post #1 of 50
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Ch 3. "Three is Company" - Pt 7: Building Character
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Having reached the end of the events of the chapter, today we will take a brief look at the characters therein, and how they are developed.
Today’s questions will be less specific, less leading, and more just general promptings for discussion.
By this time, Frodo is of course already well established as a character. His strength and also his failings here are not new revelations. Though we do see in his interactions with the Elves, some of that higher quality that Gandalf has seen, and that will guide him through on his journey.
Do you seen any new revelations about Frodo’s character in this chapter? Any surprises?
Sam was only barely introduced last chapter - mostly in a comedic fashion. Here we have more of that (the aforementioned beer barrel scene!) which helps to solidify that aspect of his character.
But we begin to see a different side of him as well.
’I am sure you have given me all the heaviest stuff,’ said Frodo. ‘I pity snails, and all that carry their homes on their backs.
‘I could take a lot more yet, sir. My packet is quite light,’ said Sam stoutly and untruthfully.
This is a good introduction to Sam’s selflessness, and his particular devotion to Frodo.
How much of a glimpse do you see here of the character of Sam that will carry Frodo and the Ring up the face of Mount Doom?
As the hobbits wake slowly up on their first morning of the journey, in their half-stupor Pippin begins:
’Sam! Get breakfast ready for half-past nine! Have you got the bath-water hot?’
Sam jumped up, looking rather bleary. ‘No, sir, I haven’t sir!’ he said.
Before their brains have “kicked in”, they seem to have failed to realize that they’re sleeping rough on the road to Buckland.
What does it say about Sam and Pippin that Pippin automatically assumes Sam (who is Frodo’s servant) will be looking after him? And that Sam just as automatically responds?
Pippin spends much of the chapter in the way we will come to know him for a while - loud and playful, and generally immature. And yet there are several moments where we see another side to the young hobbit.
’No you don’t, Sam!’ said Pippin. ‘It is good for him. He’s got nothing except what he ordered us to pack. He’s been slack lately, and he’ll find the weight less when he’s walked off some of his own.’
_________________
‘Water!’ shouted Pippin. ‘Where’s the water?’
‘I don’t keep water in my pockets,’ said Frodo.
‘We thought you had gone to find some,’ said Pippin, busy setting out the food, and cups. ‘You had better go now.’
Is it odd to find Pippin so early taking charge in this way? Or is he like this only in the comfort of familiar environs? How much does this aspect of Pippin’s character drop away once on the quest?
Other characters like Gandalf, and Merry, appear little in the chapter. It is mostly focussed on the three walking hobbits, with little in the way of incident or drama apart from the Black Rider(s).
How much do you find that you absorb about the character of Frodo, and of Sam and Pippin, throughout the course of this chapter that spends so much time with them? Is it a good place to begin to learn about the secondary characters like this?
Do you wish Merry were along as well at this point? The two movie versions of this tale always put Merry and Pippin together so that they get little chance to define themselves apart from one another at the outset - do you prefer it done Tolkien’s way?
What else do you see to discuss in the presentation of the main characters in this chapter?
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Nov 10 2007, 8:53pm
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Do you seen any new revelations about Frodo’s character in this chapter? Any surprises?
We are starting to see Frodo's skill at dealing with unfamiliar situations. I'm sure he's as awed by Gildor as Sam and Pippin, yet he's collected enough to talk one on one with Gildor and ask some very practical questions. He is learning to deal with the outside world for the first time, and he responds by thinking and planning.
How much of a glimpse do you see here of the character of Sam that will carry Frodo and the Ring up the face of Mount Doom?
We're starting to see determined, devoted Sam instead of Sam the inept spy, or Sam who is off saying good-bye to the beer barrel when Frodo calls. We still have a lot to learn about Sam.
What does it say about Sam and Pippin that Pippin automatically assumes Sam (who is Frodo’s servant) will be looking after him? And that Sam just as automatically responds?
Is it odd to find Pippin so early taking charge in this way? Or is he like this only in the comfort of familiar environs? How much does this aspect of Pippin’s character drop away once on the quest?
This shows us a Pippin who is foolish and rather spoiled. He automatically assumes that someone else will make breakfast and fetch water. He isn't used to looking after himself, much less anyone else, and he's not really taking charge, just being demanding (although he does finally set out the food and dishes). He has a lot of growing up to do, and we see that happen as the story progresses. This is a very different Pippin than the young soldier who eventually defies Denethor to save Faramir at Rath Dínen. At this point it's very difficult to imagine him going on a quest that may determine the fate of the known world.
Do you wish Merry were along as well at this point? The two movie versions of this tale always put Merry and Pippin together so that they get little chance to define themselves apart from one another at the outset - do you prefer it done Tolkien’s way?
I like getting to know Merry later on, at Crickhollow. The movie can't afford the luxury of scenes devoted only to character development, so we get to know Merry an Pippin by other means, such as the "second breakfast" scene, with Strider tossing the apple. Merry catches it while Pippin simply looks dumbfounded.
I've heard your anguish, I've heard your hearts cry out
We are tired, we are weary, but we aren't worn out
Set down your chains, until only faith remains
Set down your chains--Jewel
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 10 2007, 9:00pm
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Do you seen any new revelations about Frodo’s character in this chapter? Any surprises?
Perhaps not so much that's completely new, but things that deepen and reinforce what we know about him. We see that the Elves are impressed with him, but we also see him behaving very much like an ordinary hobbit, grumbling about the sleeping arrangements and so on. And grumbling about his heavy pack - we're reminded that he is getting to be middle-aged, and not at all hiking-fit.
But we begin to see a different side of [Sam] as well.
’I am sure you have given me all the heaviest stuff,’ said Frodo. ‘I pity snails, and all that carry their homes on their backs. ‘I could take a lot more yet, sir. My packet is quite light,’ said Sam stoutly and untruthfully.
This is a good introduction to Sam’s selflessness, and his particular devotion to Frodo.
How much of a glimpse do you see here of the character of Sam that will carry Frodo and the Ring up the face of Mount Doom?
It's a nice glimpse at one of Sam's little habits - avoiding telling Frodo the whole truth if he thinks the truth will make Frodo refuse his help. Frodo does refuse in this scene, because he soon figures out (or at least Pippin tells him) that Sam's not being truthful. But Sam did the same thing in the eavesdropping scene (although we won't know that until the Conspiracy is Unmasked). He told less than he knew, and asked to be taken along just to "see Elves". So Frodo accepted his company on those terms. Would he have agreed if he'd known how much Sam really knew? Probably not, since he tries to refuse Merry and Pippin's company when he finds out that they know too. I think there's a bit of this approach of Sam's in the way he gets himself chosen as Frodo's companion again at the Council of Elrond, and even at Parth Galen when he has to convince Frodo to take him to Mordor even though Frodo has already decided to take no-one. Sam has to be resourceful, because he knows Frodo will refuse any help that's above and beyond the call of duty, and that's the kind of help Frodo's going to need.
What does it say about Sam and Pippin that Pippin automatically assumes Sam (who is Frodo’s servant) will be looking after him? And that Sam just as automatically responds?
I think Pippin is playing a little joke on Sam. He seems to find it funny that Sam has signed on as Frodo's servant, so he's teasing him by pretending he's expected to do jobs that a servant in a big house would do. Sam was just the gardener before, so I assume he never did those other jobs of getting breakfast and baths, but in his half-awake state he's suddenly put on the spot, and falls for the joke. Frodo doesn't say anything, but I have a feeling that the reason he strips off Pippin's blankets is to let Pippin know he's been a bit out of line teasing Sam that way!
’No you don’t, Sam!’ said Pippin. ‘It is good for him. He’s got nothing except what he ordered us to pack. He’s been slack lately, and he’ll find the weight less when he’s walked off some of his own.’
_________________
‘Water!’ shouted Pippin. ‘Where’s the water?’
‘I don’t keep water in my pockets,’ said Frodo.
‘We thought you had gone to find some,’ said Pippin, busy setting out the food, and cups. ‘You had better go now.’
Is it odd to find Pippin so early taking charge in this way? Or is he like this only in the comfort of familiar environs? How much does this aspect of Pippin’s character drop away once on the quest?
I guess I see this as Pippin being very familiar with Frodo, and a bit cheeky. In fact, Pippin and Sam do most of the work (the packing, making the fire), but Pippin is very casual with Frodo, while Sam of course is formal and polite. Frodo's quite subtle in the way he never lets Pippin get away with his cheekiness though!
How much do you find that you absorb about the character of Frodo, and of Sam and Pippin, throughout the course of this chapter that spends so much time with them? Is it a good place to begin to learn about the secondary characters like this?
Well, Frodo and Sam are hardly secondary characters! But it's true that we haven't had much time to get to know Sam or Pippin so far. I think we get a good impression of the three hobbits as separate characters, but mostly we learn that hobbits are a lot like us. The whole walking, eating and camping thing seems so cosily familiar that we can easily identify with these experiences.
Do you wish Merry were along as well at this point? The two movie versions of this tale always put Merry and Pippin together so that they get little chance to define themselves apart from one another at the outset - do you prefer it done Tolkien’s way?
Tolkien's way means that we see less of Merry early on, so perhaps it takes a little longer to get to know him. But in the book Merry is a much different character from Pippin really - much more serious and confident, while Pippin is his immature, irrepressible self. However, I have to admit that even after several readings I still mixed up who did what! In the movie, although Pippin is as immature as in the book, Merry is quite the troublemaker too. There they are really positioned as a contrast with Frodo and Sam. In the book, Pippin and Sam are both a source of humour, and have several little scenes together. In the movie, it's Merry and Pippin who provide the humour, while Frodo and Sam are more serious.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Nov 10 2007, 9:59pm
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I had forgotten how different Merry and Pippin's personalities really were, and it is nice to have them introduced to us one at a time, so we can appreciate their differences.
Tolkien's portrayal of hobbits is a very interesting set of contrasts. Hobbits are clearly intended to be everymen - simple unsophisticated folk that readers can identify with, in contrast to the sophisticated men of Gondor. Yet even as we read about these early adventures of the hobbits, it is easy to forget that this is a rarified group of hobbits. Pippen is not just Frodo's immature young cousin, he is the eldest son of the Thain, quite literally "the Prince of the Haflings". Merry is also more than a young cousin, he is the heir of the Brandybucks, which has an even longer family pedigree than the Tooks. Frodo is the heir of Bilbo Baggins. It is not surprising that Sam shows defference to such a group, though we will eventually see Sam rise to similar prominance through his own merit.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 11 2007, 12:49pm
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Getting to Know the Three Hobbits.
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Do you seen any new revelations about Frodo’s character in this chapter? Any surprises?
We already know that Gandalf has a high opinion of Frodo. His encounter with Gildor just cements the differences between Frodo at the beginning of LotR and Bilbo at the beginning of The Hobbit. Frodo is Bilbo's successor, but he begins where Bilbo left off, with the benefit of everything Bilbo had learned.
Frodo is named an elf-friend at the outset of his adventure, not at the end, which leads us to wonder what the next step beyond elf-friend may be. How can Frodo possibly have a character arc if he starts out as a personal friend of Gandalf and the Elves? Well, he does.
How much of a glimpse do you see here of the character of Sam that will carry Frodo and the Ring up the face of Mount Doom?
Sam continues to be a stealth hero at this point. We later learn that the Elves had some words of advice for him as well, but I can't imagine that any first-time reader with no prior knowledge of the story could anticipate Sam's ultimate importance. Right now he just seems like a good, if somewhat nosey, servant.
What does it say about Sam and Pippin that Pippin automatically assumes Sam (who is Frodo’s servant) will be looking after him? And that Sam just as automatically responds?
Pippin is a young aristocrat and Sam is a paid servant. This episode tells us a good deal about both Pippin and Sam. They will change.
Is it odd to find Pippin so early taking charge in this way? Or is he like this only in the comfort of familiar environs? How much does this aspect of Pippin’s character drop away once on the quest?
When Merry joins the party he takes charge, and Pippin defers to him. Merry and Pippin are the closest the Shire has to young princes, heirs to the two most prominent hobbit families. Merry is senior to Pippin, though. Even in Bree, Merry and Pippin are still acting the part of young princes. Merry dispenses good advice and then ignores it when he goes for a walk, and Pippin ignores Merry's advice in the common room.
Merry and Pippin fade into the background with the coming of Strider, and don't really come into their own again until they are captured by the orcs. There they get tied up with the stories of the royal families of Rohan and Gondor, and learn the meaning of nobility. But when the return to the Shire for the Scouring, they immediately take charge again, with Pippin following Merry's lead again.
How much do you find that you absorb about the character of Frodo, and of Sam and Pippin, throughout the course of this chapter that spends so much time with them? Is it a good place to begin to learn about the secondary characters like this?
Secondary characters? What secondary characters? Do you mean Sam and Pippin? At this point I suppose we might think of them as secondary characters, but that will change. Unlike The Hobbit, where the dwarves are mere sketches of characters compared to Bilbo, LotR uses an ensemble cast. The core of the cast is the Fellowship, and the core of the core are the four hobbits, Gandalf, and Strider. Tolkien gives us time to get to know each of those six characters during Book I.
Do you wish Merry were along as well at this point? The two movie versions of this tale always put Merry and Pippin together so that they get little chance to define themselves apart from one another at the outset - do you prefer it done Tolkien’s way?
I much prefer Tolkien's version, where we get to know Pippin and Merry separately. Even so it take Tolkien a long while to get back to Pippin and Merry as central characters, but he does lay the groundwork for their distinct personalities in these early chapters.
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Humbert
Lindon
Nov 11 2007, 4:47pm
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More than one person has brought me to task on this point. Interestingly enough, I don't remember writing this phrase!
I can only assume that at the time of writing (and, sadly, it was much more hurried than the other discussion topics - as is doubtlessly obvious) I was intending indeed to suggest that at this point Sam and Pippin are minor characters. I surely wasn't suggesting that they are "secondary characters" in the book as a whole.
At least, I hope that's not what I meant. I honestly don't know what I might have meant by that expression! (I read it over three times right before posting, too. I hate when this stuff happens.)
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 11 2007, 5:02pm
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Really? I would like to hear more about this. Is this why Frodo cannot spare for the rogue-like Strider at Bree any of the "little" money he brought: because he needs it to pay Sam's weekly bit?
I agree with your assessment of Merry and Pippin's behavior, but not with your terminology. "Princes" is a bit much for the Shire, even given their later experiences as squires to royalty and near-royalty. Prince connotes royalty, and only one family in the Shire would have princes, if the Shire had acknowledged a leader of royal stature. The Tooks and Brandybucks are the equivalent of powerful and ancient noble families with extensive hereditary lands and a dependent local society that supports them.
Merry and Pippin are better thought of as "nobles" - their self-assured (or selfish) behavior and assumptions are what one could expect of any young nobleman even in Tolkien's time. If you need a specific title in lieu of Prince, may I suggest Duke?
But the absurdity of taking M & P's "status" too seriously is that Frodo's direct family, the Bagginses, though wealthy and well-respected, does not have a "land" named for it, just a single neighborhood of Hobbiton (Bag End). Bilbo and his heir would seem, if not actually bourgeois, then still lower in social status to the Tooks and Brandybucks. In English terms the intermarriages between the families would be interpreted as Baggins money marrying Took/Brandybuck status. Frodo as a "noble by marriage" would have less status than Merry and Pippin.
Of course nothing like this is actually true about Tolkien's fantasy hobbit society. Even in these early chapters, before their fellowship is bonded by shared adventures, things are so old school, chummy, and even democratic, that Sam's occasional intervals of "servant identity" seem awkward and authorially careless.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 11 2007, 5:39pm
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Sometimes our mistakes can lead to the most interesting discussions. When we covered "The Taming of Sméagol" two years ago, I mistakenly wrote Sam's expression as "snakes and ladders" when he actually says "snakes and adders". I didn't even have any questions about the phrase, just included it as I described a section of the text. But it got a half-dozen comments.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 5-11 for "Three Is Company".
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Nov 11 2007, 6:05pm
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In the Hobbit, don't they mention that
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The Bagginses were considered far more 'respectable' than the Tooks, though not nearly as wealthy. (This was before Bilbo's adventure, which of coure increased the wealth of the Bagginses, both actual and purported, and lowered their 'respectability' in the eyes of the Shire's chattering classes.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 11 2007, 6:33pm
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Yes: Tooks were "not as respectable" but "undoubtedly richer" than Bagginses. //
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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 5-11 for "Three Is Company".
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 11 2007, 8:19pm
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Aristocracy Among the Hobbits.
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Really? I would like to hear more about this. Is this why Frodo cannot spare for the rogue-like Strider at Bree any of the "little" money he brought: because he needs it to pay Sam's weekly bit?
As we have agreed, it is best not to look at Tolkien's economics too closely. But surely the Gaffer and Sam did not work for free all those years.
I agree with your assessment of Merry and Pippin's behavior, but not with your terminology. "Princes" is a bit much for the Shire, even given their later experiences as squires to royalty and near-royalty. Prince connotes royalty, and only one family in the Shire would have princes, if the Shire had acknowledged a leader of royal stature. The Tooks and Brandybucks are the equivalent of powerful and ancient noble families with extensive hereditary lands and a dependent local society that supports them.
Merry and Pippin are better thought of as "nobles" - their self-assured (or selfish) behavior and assumptions are what one could expect of any young nobleman even in Tolkien's time. If you need a specific title in lieu of Prince, may I suggest Duke?
I don't believe I said that Merry and Pippin were in fact princes, but as close to princes at you could get in the Shire, i.e. princely. Call them dukely if you wish. Or perhaps knightly.
Of course the Shire has so long ago forgotten the meaning of nobility that the Tooks and Brandybucks are no longer given the respect that should be their due -- until the Scouring reminds the hobbits of the need for leaders. Yes, the Shire is democratic, and perhaps Tolkien is not so enthused about such democracy. Lotho and his dad represent the seemy side of democracy, where money speaks louder than virtue. Of course there is a seemy side to aristocracy, but Tolkien seems to think there is something good to be said about it as well, at least in a world where the aristocrats are elf-friends, and the elves have been to Valinor.
But the absurdity of taking M & P's "status" too seriously is that Frodo's direct family, the Bagginses, though wealthy and well-respected, does not have a "land" named for it, just a single neighborhood of Hobbiton (Bag End). Bilbo and his heir would seem, if not actually bourgeois, then still lower in social status to the Tooks and Brandybucks. In English terms the intermarriages between the families would be interpreted as Baggins money marrying Took/Brandybuck status. Frodo as a "noble by marriage" would have less status than Merry and Pippin.
You don't think the Tooks and Brandybucks have a higher status than the Baggins? Perhaps not, until after the Scouring, when the King returns and the old order is restored. Elanor gains a similar status when her husband is granted the Westmarch, as an honor to Sam. Sam, however, must gain such status by holding elected office as mayor. As I noted above, it may be true that when our story begins the Tooks and Brandybucks are not given the honor they are due because it has been so long since the hobbits needed leaders. But by the end of the story that will change.
Of course nothing like this is actually true about Tolkien's fantasy hobbit society. Even in these early chapters, before their fellowship is bonded by shared adventures, things are so old school, chummy, and even democratic, that Sam's occasional intervals of "servant identity" seem awkward and authorially careless.
I do think Sam's status has already changed as far as Frodo is concerned, but I think Pippin and Merry have more aristocratic tendencies, and may take longer than Frodo to appreciate Sam's worth. But whether you like Tolkien's efforts to give Sam a servant identity or not, you must admit that he does it throughout the book, so that even in Mordor Sam is calling his "Master" "Mr. Frodo." But Sam's status does change, in Frodo's mind long before it does in Sam's, and in Sam's after Frodo leaves, and Sam truly becomes the Master of Bag End, and gains all the other honors he is due. Sam's subservience may make us uncomfortable, but it is an important part of his personality.
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 11 2007, 8:37pm
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"‘Lordly’ folk called them, meaning nothing but good..."
This is after the War of the Ring, of course, but it's not an adjective that's applied to Sam, and certainly not to Frodo.
  
Promises to Keep: a novel set in 19th Century New Zealand.
The Passing of Mistress Rose
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 11 2007, 8:45pm
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That's what I was trying to remember.
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Thanks for the cite!
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hobbitlove
Mithlond
Nov 12 2007, 1:45am
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Don't berate yourself for nothing. Not good. This is all terrific stuff. Love it!
What a great discussion this is, and so thoroughly prepared!
Come on, now! You can't be so hard on yourself about one word. Promise me you won't think about it for another second.
You know, Humbert, we never get tired of these book discussions. Look at the stats. We love them, but few find time to do them. It take a lot of time to prepare this stuff. It really is so appreciated, in a hundred ways. Afterall, we can't nit-pick if no one prepares a discussion.
= )
Pat yourself on the back, a lot!
I thank you so very much for all of this.
{{hugs}}
hob
Check out
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hob
(former nick: "HobbitLoveR*M-e" among several others, briefly)
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Nov 12 2007, 9:43am
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Far From Home wrote:
/But in the book Merry is a much different character from Pippin really - much more serious and confident, while Pippin is his immature, irrepressible self. However, I have to admit that even after several readings I still mixed up who did what! In the movie, although Pippin is as immature as in the book, Merry is quite the troublemaker too. There they are really positioned as a contrast with Frodo and Sam./
I wholeheartedly agree about the difference between Merry & Pippin. In the book Merry is a considerable character, resourceful, confident and quite knowledgeable, and going through some deep changes. Of all the characters from the movie Merry is the only one I hardly recognize.
/It's a nice glimpse at one of Sam's little habits - avoiding telling Frodo the whole truth if he thinks the truth will make Frodo refuse his help. Frodo does refuse in this scene, because he soon figures out (or at least Pippin tells him) that Sam's not being truthful. But Sam did the same thing in the eavesdropping scene (although we won't know that until the Conspiracy is Unmasked). He told less than he knew, and asked to be taken along just to "see Elves. So Frodo accepted his company on those terms. Would he have agreed if he'd known how much Sam really knew? /
It's an interesting comment you make about Sam, and probably true in most cases,but in the eavesdropping scene it seemed to me it was rather Gandalf who chose Sam as Frodo's companion than Frodo accepting him. After all, as we will see in the next chapter, the meeting with the elves did something to Sam's understanding of his own part in the quest, and Frodo and Sam are speaking quite openly about the dangers of what lies ahead; Sam is even given options. But I guess we can go more into that when the discussion of the next chapter begins.
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Nov 12 2007, 10:34am
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By this time, Frodo is of course already well established as a character. His strength and also his failings here are not new revelations. Though we do see in his interactions with the Elves, some of that higher quality that Gandalf has seen, and that will guide him through on his journey.
Do you seen any new revelations about Frodo’s character in this chapter? Any surprises?
I hardly see any new revelations, but we get to see Frodo actually interacting with the Elves instead of just hearing that he has met them during his tramping and wanderings. We see the melancholy and a bit lonely side of him again at the start, and more directly than before. When Frodo is interacting with Gandalf & the Elves he is also much more open about his fears and his hopes than he seems to be with his hobbit companions.
How much of a glimpse do you see here of the character of Sam that will carry Frodo and the Ring up the face of Mount Doom?
See my reply to FarFromHome below.
Pippin spends much of the chapter in the way we will come to know him for a while - loud and playful, and generally immature.
Is it odd to find Pippin so early taking charge in this way? Or is he like this only in the comfort of familiar environs? How much does this aspect of Pippin’s character drop away once on the quest?
I still see this as the same Pippin, but a Pippin who is a bit cheeky as well as well as playful and loud.
How much do you find that you absorb about the character of Frodo, and of Sam and Pippin, throughout the course of this chapter that spends so much time with them? Is it a good place to begin to learn about the secondary characters like this?
A good question. But there's such a long way to go yet and we've hardly started. I find that I get to know as least as much about the Shire's landscape as the hobbits. I like to read about the companionship of the hobbits, especially bearing in mind the melancholy and closed side to Frodo getting stronger as the quest progresses. The most important part of the chapter for me is the meeting with the Elves and the impact it has on Sam & Frodo. I've hardly seen who Pippin is yet, except noting that he can be quite funny.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 12 2007, 10:38am
Post #17 of 50
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You're quite right that Sam's little moments of deviousness don't always involve Frodo directly. In fact there are at least a couple where he gets someone else to step in and make the decision on behalf of Frodo. The eavesdropping scene is the first, as you say:
it was rather Gandalf who chose Sam as Frodo's companion than Frodo accepting him
Yes, I agree that it's Gandalf who chooses Sam. But that's because Gandalf, being the wise Wizard he is, sees through Sam better than Frodo does:
"Take you to see Elves, eh?" he said, eyeing Sam closely, but with a smile flickering on his face. "So you heard that Mr. Frodo is going away?"
Gandalf figures out Sam's little deception, realizes what he's trying to do, and so takes the decision out of Frodo's hands - Frodo's own reluctance to ask too much of Sam, by taking him into danger, is overruled. (Elrond does almost the exact same thing at the end of the Council, but I guess we've a while to go before we get there!)
I agree as well that the meeting with Gildor does change Sam's perception of just what he has volunteered for. But even then, when he and Frodo have their heart-to-heart, he says no word of the conspiracy. And later, in the Conspiracy Unmasked scene, he lets slip that he was eavesdropping again, when he was supposedly asleep while Frodo and Gildor talked. Frodo even threatens to kick him in future before assuming he's asleep - it seems that he's starting to realize that Sam's not as simple as he looks!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Nov 12 2007, 10:41am)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 12 2007, 4:06pm
Post #18 of 50
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You put together a week's worth of thoughtful, interesting questions, make one slip of the tongue, and that's what people jump on! (I was one of those people - sorry about that!)
Thanks for a great discussion. I hope I can do half as good a job when we get to my chapter!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Humbert
Lindon
Nov 13 2007, 12:52am
Post #19 of 50
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Oh, I didn't feel "jumped on".
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No worries.
And I am sure, FFH, that your discussion week will be far better than mine. I'm just glad I didn't screw it up too badly!
But much thanks to you and hobbitlove (hi!) for your kind words. And to everyone else for their words of encouragement and support.
Thanks again to all who participated - I wish I had had the time to enter into the discussion more (like I'd planned). Oh well.
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Kdgard
Nevrast
Nov 13 2007, 5:53am
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Hi Squire. You mention that "Merry and Pippen are better thought of as 'nobles'". I just realized that Sam is the ONLY person in the Fellowship who is not a noble or at least upper-class. He's the only average Joe in the group. I wonder if Tolkien was trying to say something about that by having Sam play such an important part at the end (carrying Frodo and The Ring up Mt. Doom). In the end, all of the upper class folks would have failed if it hadn't been for this one little working-class stiff. I became much more aware of this when reading LOTR as an adult with a mortgage payment, loans, grocery bills, utility bills, car payments, etc.. It's not really class-envy, but I find myself thinking about Frodo, Merry, Pippen, Gimli, Legolas and the rest and thinking, "Gee. It must be nice to be able to run off on an adventure and not have to worry about losing the house, or the car, or your job." You never hear Gimli saying, "I am SO going to be fired if I don't get back to the forge!"
I just recently watched the movie "Willow" again. If you think about it, Willow is a much more heroic character than anyone in the Fellowship. It was made clear before Willow left on his quest that, if he didn't get his crops planted, he would end up losing his farm to Berglecut (spelling?). I'm not trying to take away from the bravery of the Fellowship; if either the Fellowship or Willow fail then Evil will rule the world. But, unlike anyone in the Fellowship, Willow is risking sacraficing everything he has to go on the quest and do the right thing. Who in the upper-class Fellowship can say that?
Not one of them have to worry about losing anything back home by leaving on their quest, other than knowing that there will be no home to return to if their mission fails.
Kdgard
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 13 2007, 11:59am
Post #21 of 50
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Tolkien said Sam was the "chief hero"
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In letters, Tolkien called Sam the "chief hero" of the tale (Letter 131). Carpenter's bio of Tolkien quotes "a letter" (not sure which one): "Discussing one of the prinicpal characters in The Lord of the Rings he wrote many years later: 'My "Sam Gamgee" is indeed a reflexion of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognised as so far superior to myself.'"
It's interesting that Sam is also the only hobbit who leaves a sweetheart behind in the Shire. Here's Tolkien again in Letter 131:
"I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves' and sheer beauty." [emphasis in original/a.s.]
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 13 2007, 12:18pm
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Even in these early chapters, before their fellowship is bonded by shared adventures, things are so old school, chummy, and even democratic, that Sam's occasional intervals of "servant identity" seem awkward and authorially careless.
"Authorially careless"? I'm not sure I agree (or maybe I misunderstand) and wish you would elaborate a bit. To me, Tolkien portrays Sam consistently as a servant all the way through the book. Even at the end, when Sam has become an important person in the Shire, he remains a sort of quasi-body servant to Frodo, looking after him and taking care of him.
I think Pippin's peremptory assumption that Sam will start the meal and get the bath water is right in character for a young spoiled upper class hobbit completely used to being waited on as a matter of course (although his morning words to Sam could be read as a little bit tongue-in-cheek and not entirely serious). However, I notice that he slips out of this character rather easily and quickly, and when Frodo returns to the fire that both Pip and Sam are laboring over, Pippin (jokingly) berates Frodo for not having brought water.
In other words, Pippin's first reaction upon wakening is to call for a servant because that is simply the normal course of events. And Sam's first reaction is to say "yes, sir, coming, sir" etc. Yet both readily begin working together across class boundaries pretty quickly.
OTOH, Sam remains in a servant role to all the other hobbits throughout the book, until he returns with Frodo from Mt. Doom, at which time he comes into his own role as hero and remains a servant only to Frodo.
And I think we're supposed to notice that Sam is a servant. I think it's a very important point, his class and state.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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Kdgard
Nevrast
Nov 14 2007, 1:09am
Post #23 of 50
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is saying something about servitude? You mention that Tolkien refers to Sam as "the chief hero" and that his character is a reflection of the common English soldier. You go on to say that, "And I think we're supposed to notice that Sam is a servant. I think it's a very important point, his class and state". Since Sam is a commoner and also the "chief hero", does his character represent a subtle attack by Tolkien on the whole notion of class distinction and status? I have recently read "Around the World in 80 Days" and "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea". In both books, the main characters have servants (who, quite frankly, they would be doomed without) and the servants are absolutely loyal and subservient to their masters and apparently quite content to be so. Sam demonstrates that same contentment in his position with Mr. Frodo. The whole master/servant concept is just completely alien to my thought processes. In my mind, you may work for someone, but that doesn't make you inferior to that person, even if they happen to have more money or whatever. I wonder if Tolkien was trying to drive that point home with the character of Sam? At any rate, it's obvious that Frodo would be up the creek without a paddle were it not for Sam!
Kdgard
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Nov 14 2007, 1:47am
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I think Tolkien did view LOTR as a 'Catholic work', and he certainly had in mind Mark 9:35 "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all" when he emphasizes the heroic nature of Sam's role as a servant.
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 14 2007, 2:25am
Post #25 of 50
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Frodo's batman, and "good and faithful" service
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Well, I think there are a few things going on with Tolkien's portrayal of Sam as servant. First, it's clearly intended that Sam be a servant and he acts as Frodo's servant the entire journey; but this service takes on the ramifications of a personal service in war. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the history and derivation of "batmen", which was what the English officers' personal servants were called during WWI--I mean, I don't know if that was common in earlier wars, etc. But here is an interesting look at Sam as Frodo's Batman.
So yes, I think we are intended to notice that Sam is Frodo's servant, that there is beauty and courage in this role, and further, that people in a classed society have roles and there is nothing wrong with that on its face. However uncomfortable that makes modern people raised in "classless" (which often just means an unacknowledged class system) societies, I think it was something Tolkien had experienced, found some value in, and regarded as Sam's personal greatness. "He did not think of himself as heroic or even brave, or in any way admirable—except in his service and loyalty to his master."
Secondly, there is the thoughtful man Tolkien himself, reading and thinking about the great (some would say quintessential) Christian theme of service to others as the highest possible calling. While I think Tolkien intended Sam to be a kind of batman, I also think he intended us to notice that the greatest hero of the book is the servant who is intent on his job of service, considers it an honorable duty, and by this service enables Frodo to get up Mt. Doom for the final graced result.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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