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**Beowulf Discussion Part 30** -- Peace Won't Last, and What I Did for the Danes.

Curious
Gondolin

Nov 2 2007, 9:21am

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Beowulf Discussion Part 30 -- Peace Won't Last, and What I Did for the Danes.	Can't Post

The Sparknotes summary for this section of Beowulf can be found at this link:
http://www.sparknotes.com/...owulf/section7.rhtml

[Beowulf] predicts that the sight of the ancestral possessions of each worn by the kin of the other (the result of many years of warring and plundering) will cause memories of the deep and lengthy feud between the Danes and the Heathobards to surface, so that they will not be able to keep themselves from continuing to fight. Beowulf then tells the story of his encounter with Grendel. He particularly emphasizes the monster�s ferocity and the rewards that he received from Hrothgar. He relates the battle with Grendel's mother as well. Lesslie Hall's 1892 translation is at this link:
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16328

XXX.

BEOWULF NARRATES HIS ADVENTURES TO HIGELAC.

"It well may discomfit the prince of the Heathobards
And each of the thanemen of earls that attend him,
[70] When he goes to the building escorting the woman,
That a noble-born Daneman the knights should be feasting:
5 There gleam on his person the leavings of elders
Hard and ring-bright, Heathobards' treasure,
While they wielded their arms, till they misled to the battle
Their own dear lives and belov�d companions.
He saith at the banquet who the collar beholdeth,
10 An ancient ash-warrior who earlmen's destruction
Clearly recalleth (cruel his spirit),
Sadly beginneth sounding the youthful
Thane-champion's spirit through the thoughts of his bosom,
War-grief to waken, and this word-answer speaketh:

{Ingeld is stirred up to break the truce.}

15 'Art thou able, my friend, to know when thou seest it
The brand which thy father bare to the conflict
In his latest adventure, 'neath visor of helmet,
The dearly-loved iron, where Danemen did slay him,
And brave-mooded Scyldings, on the fall of the heroes,
20 (When vengeance was sleeping) the slaughter-place wielded?
E'en now some man of the murderer's progeny
Exulting in ornaments enters the building,
Boasts of his blood-shedding, offbeareth the jewel
Which thou shouldst wholly hold in possession!'
25 So he urgeth and mindeth on every occasion
With woe-bringing words, till waxeth the season
When the woman's thane for the works of his father,
The bill having bitten, blood-gory sleepeth,
Fated to perish; the other one thenceward
30 'Scapeth alive, the land knoweth thoroughly.[1]
Then the oaths of the earlmen on each side are broken,
When rancors unresting are raging in Ingeld
And his wife-love waxeth less warm after sorrow.
So the Heathobards' favor not faithful I reckon,
35 Their part in the treaty not true to the Danemen,
Their friendship not fast. I further shall tell thee

[71]

{Having made these preliminary statements, I will now tell thee of
Grendel, the monster.}

More about Grendel, that thou fully mayst hear,
Ornament-giver, what afterward came from
The hand-rush of heroes. When heaven's bright jewel
40 O'er earthfields had glided, the stranger came raging,
The horrible night-fiend, us for to visit,
Where wholly unharmed the hall we were guarding.

{Hondscio fell first}

To Hondscio happened a hopeless contention,
Death to the doomed one, dead he fell foremost,
45 Girded war-champion; to him Grendel became then,
To the vassal distinguished, a tooth-weaponed murderer,
The well-beloved henchman's body all swallowed.
Not the earlier off empty of hand did
The bloody-toothed murderer, mindful of evils,
50 Wish to escape from the gold-giver's palace,
But sturdy of strength he strove to outdo me,
Hand-ready grappled. A glove was suspended
Spacious and wondrous, in art-fetters fastened,
Which was fashioned entirely by touch of the craftman
55 From the dragon's skin by the devil's devices:
He down in its depths would do me unsadly
One among many, deed-doer raging,
Though sinless he saw me; not so could it happen
When I in my anger upright did stand.
60 'Tis too long to recount how requital I furnished
For every evil to the earlmen's destroyer;

{I reflected honor upon my people.}

'Twas there, my prince, that I proudly distinguished
Thy land with my labors. He left and retreated,
He lived his life a little while longer:
65 Yet his right-hand guarded his footstep in Heorot,
And sad-mooded thence to the sea-bottom fell he,
Mournful in mind. For the might-rush of battle

{King Hrothgar lavished gifts upon me.}

The friend of the Scyldings, with gold that was plated,
With ornaments many, much requited me,
70 When daylight had dawned, and down to the banquet
We had sat us together. There was chanting and joyance:
The age-stricken Scylding asked many questions
[72] And of old-times related; oft light-ringing harp-strings,
Joy-telling wood, were touched by the brave one;
75 Now he uttered measures, mourning and truthful,
Then the large-hearted land-king a legend of wonder
Truthfully told us. Now troubled with years

{The old king is sad over the loss of his youthful vigor.}

The age-hoary warrior afterward began to
Mourn for the might that marked him in youth-days;
80 His breast within boiled, when burdened with winters
Much he remembered. From morning till night then
We joyed us therein as etiquette suffered,
Till the second night season came unto earth-folk.
Then early thereafter, the mother of Grendel

{Grendel's mother.}

85 Was ready for vengeance, wretched she journeyed;
Her son had death ravished, the wrath of the Geatmen.
The horrible woman aveng�d her offspring,
And with mighty mainstrength murdered a hero.

{�schere falls a prey to her vengeance.}

There the spirit of �schere, ag�d adviser,
90 Was ready to vanish; nor when morn had lightened
Were they anywise suffered to consume him with fire,
Folk of the Danemen, the death-weakened hero,
Nor the belov�d liegeman to lay on the pyre;

{She suffered not his body to be burned, but ate it.}

She the corpse had offcarried in the clutch of the foeman[2]
95 'Neath mountain-brook's flood. To Hrothgar 'twas saddest
Of pains that ever had preyed on the chieftain;
By the life of thee the land-prince then me[3]
Besought very sadly, in sea-currents' eddies
To display my prowess, to peril my safety,
100 Might-deeds accomplish; much did he promise.

{I sought the creature in her den,}

I found then the famous flood-current's cruel,
Horrible depth-warder. A while unto us two
[73] Hand was in common; the currents were seething
With gore that was clotted, and Grendel's fierce mother's

{and hewed her head off.}

105 Head I offhacked in the hall at the bottom
With huge-reaching sword-edge, hardly I wrested
My life from her clutches; not doomed was I then,

{Jewels were freely bestowed upon me.}

But the warden of earlmen afterward gave me
Jewels in quantity, kinsman of Healfdene.

[1] For 'lifigende' (2063), a mere conjecture, 'w�gende' has been
suggested. The line would then read: _Escapeth by fighting, knows the
land thoroughly_.

[2] For 'f��mum,' Gr.'s conjecture, B. proposes 'f�runga.' These three
half-verses would then read: _She bore off the corpse of her foe
suddenly under the mountain-torrent_.

[3] The phrase '��ne l�fe' (2132) was long rendered '_with thy
(presupposed) permission_.' The verse would read: _The land-prince
then sadly besought me, with thy (presupposed) permission, etc_.

A more recent translation by Benjamin Slade (this section starts on line 2032) can be found here:
http://www.heorot.dk/beo-intro-rede.html

This then may displease the chief of the Heatho-Bards'
and every thane of that people,
when he with the maiden walks on the floor:
that the noble sons of the Danes, her veteran troop, are entertained,
on them glisten ancient heirlooms,
hard and ring-adorned, the Heatho-Bards' treasure,
so long as they those weapons were able to wield.
Until they had led to disaster in the shield-play
their dear companions and their own lives.
Then speaks at the beer-drinking, he who sees a ring-precious object,
the old ash-warrior, he who remembers all
the spear-death of men --in him is a fierce heart--
he begins sad-spirited in a young champion,
by the musing of his heart, to tempt his mind,
to awaken war-horror, and speaks these words:
"Can you, my friend, recognise that maiche,
which your father bore into the fight,
under his army-mask on the last campaign,
precious iron, there the Danes slew him,
controlled the slaying-field, when retribution failed,
after the heroes' fall, the fierce Scyldings?
Now here of those slayers the son of one or other of them,
exultant in trappings, goes across the floor,
boasts of murder, and wears the treasure
which you by right ought to possess."
Thus he incites and reminds every time
with grievous words, until that time comes
that the woman's thane for his father's deeds
from the bite of a bill-blade sleeps, stained in blood,
having forfeited life; him the other thence
escapes alive, the land is readily known to him.
Then are broken on both sides
the sworn oaths of earls; then in Ingeld
murderous hate will well up and in him the love of woman
surges of grief will become cooler;
Therefore I the Heathobards' loyalty do not consider,
the alliance's portion, for the Danes untreacherous,
enduring friendship. I ought speak further
again about Grendel, that you may readily know,
giver of treasure, what then happened,
the hand-fight of heroes when heaven's gem
had glided over the earth, the ireful guest came,
terrible, fierce in the evening to visit us,
where we, unharmed, warded the hall,
where was for Hondscio a sinking battle
deadly evil for the doomed man; he fell first,
the girded champion; for him Grendel was,
the famed thane of distinction, a slayer by mouth,
the belov�d man's body swallowed up completely;
not the sooner out yet empty-handed,
the slayer bloody-toothed, wickedness in mind,
from the gold-hall did he wish to go
but he, famed for his strength, tested me,
gripped with an eager hand; a pouch hung down
spacious and strange, with cleverly-wrought clasps held fast,
it was cunningly all devised
with devil's crafts and dragon's skins;
he me there inside, guiltless,
the daring instigator wished to stuff,
as one of many; he could not do so,
since I in anger stood erect.
It is too long to recount how I the scourge of the people
for each of his evils paid in hand-requital
where I, my lord, your people
honoured by acts; he escaped away
for a little while, enjoyed the joy of life;
yet from him the right, a vestige, remainded behind
hand in Heorot, and he wretched thence,
gloomy in his heart, sank into the depths of the mere.
To me for the bloody battle the Friend of the Scyldings
with objects of plated gold in plenty rewarded,
many treasures, when morning came,
and we to the feast had sat down
where was song and glee: old Scylding
who has heard tell of many things, from long ago narrated;
at times this battle-daring one the harp for pleasure
the old-wood played; sometimes recited a song,
true and tragic; sometimes strange tales
he related rightly, the open-hearted king;
at times he began again, bound in his age,
the ancient war-soldier, to mourn for his youth,
his battle-strength; his heart welled inside,
when he, wise in winter, recalled many things.
So we there inside a whole long day
took pleasure, until came night
another to men; then was again swiftly
ready for grief-revenge Grendel's mother,
she journeyed full of sorrow; Death had taken her son,
the war-hate of the Wederas; the horrible woman
avenged her child, killed a warrior
savagely; there was from �schere,
the old, wise lore-counsellor, life departed.
Nor could they him, when morning came,
weary of death the Danish people
cremate in fire, nor lay on the funeral bale,
the beloved man; she had carried off the corpse
in fiend's embrace beneath the mountain stream;
that was for Hrothgar the most bitter grief
which the ruler of the people long had received.
Then me the chieftain, by your life,
implored with troubled mind, that I in the waters' tumult
perform a noble act, risk life,
accomplish glory; he promised me rewards.
Then I the welling waters', as is widely known,
wrathful ghastly guard of the deep found;
there a while we were sharing a hand;
the water welled with gore, and I cut off the head
in that deep-hall of Grendel's mother
with mighty edges, not easily thence
I carried off my life; I was not doomed yet
but to me the protector of heroes again gave
many treasures, the kinsman of Half-Dane.'

Questions:

Beowulf doubts that the peace between the Danes and Heathobards will last. Beowulf envisions one of the Heathobards recognizing an item that used to belong to his father, and now is worn by one of the Danes who slew his father. But what is the item to which Beowulf refers? Is it jewelry, a weapon, or something else? What does it look like? What is it made of?

Wouldn't the Danes know better than to flaunt treasure they took from the Heathobards when visiting their former enemies?

Why are heirlooms worth so much to the Danes, Geats, Heathobards, and presumably the Anglo-Saxons? Are they just into antiques? Do they place great store on sentimental value? Or is there another reason why the age of the treasure has something to do with its value? Is there a historical basis for this value system, or is this simply the stuff of legends and myth and fiction? In other words, did ancient peoples really place such value on heirlooms? If so, why? How would the world be different if the best and most treasured items were also the oldest, rather than the newest?

Okay, having briefly discussed why this truce won't last, Beowulf then tells us about his encounter with Grendel and Grendel's mother. Why do we hear this again? Why doesn't the poet just say that Beowulf told his king what has happened, without going through Beowulf's summary of the poem so far?

How does Beowulf's summary of the poem so far differ from the poem so far? What new information does Beowulf relate that we haven't heard before? Why haven't we heard this information before?

What do we learn about Beowulf from hearing his account of what happened? Is Beowulf proud or modest or some mixture of both? Is that okay? Is Beowulf's report complete and accurate? Is it too long or too short? When the poet told us of Beowulf's feats he made sure to mention God or Fate (Weird), but does Beowulf do so? Should he? What did Beowulf think was important, and what did he omit?

Is there any humor in Beowulf's story? Any anger? Any sadness? Is Beowulf a good storyteller? Does Beowulf have an agenda behind the story he tells his king and uncle?

Is anyone else present when Beowulf tells this story, or is it just him and the king? Is there a poet nearby taking notes? If we imagine Beowulf's story to be historical rather than fictional, how would the story have been handed down to us?

What does Beowulf think of Hrothgar? Is it all good? Or does he see some weaknesses in Hrothgar's rulership?

Any other comments?

(This post was edited by Curious on Nov 2 2007, 9:22am)

FarFromHome
Doriath

Nov 4 2007, 2:11pm

Post #2 of 17 (909 views)
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might be to let people see these lines in Heaney's version. Other than that, I'll have my usual uneducated guess at some answers to your questions! Crazy

...at times the king
gave the proper turn to some fantastic tale

I don't recall hearing that the king was the ultimate source of the correct version of a story (if this is what the Anglo-Saxon really says). It reminds me of Aragorn saying of some ancient tale that "only Elrond remembers it aright".

What do we learn about Beowulf from hearing his account of what happened? Is Beowulf proud or modest or some mixture of both? Is that okay? Is Beowulf's report complete and accurate? Is it too long or too short? When the poet told us of Beowulf's feats he made sure to mention God or Fate (Weird), but does Beowulf do so? Should he? What did Beowulf think was important, and what did he omit?

Beowulf's account seems to dwell on different aspects of the story than what we heard the first time. I'm not sure we should read too much into what Beowulf himself says compared to what the poet told us. They may just be two versions of the story, rather than meant to represent the "objective truth" (the poet's version) and the "subjective truth" (Beowulf's version). Beowulf does mention Fate briefly:

I barely managed
to escape with my life; my time had not yet come.

but he leaves out a lot of the actual action, and focuses on the honours and gifts that he was given.

Is there any humor in Beowulf's story? Any anger? Any sadness? Is Beowulf a good storyteller? Does Beowulf have an agenda behind the story he tells his king and uncle?

Beowulf seems to be telling his story in very diplomatic fashion. He's dwelling on the honours bestowed on him by Hrothgar, and making it clear that these honours were won on behalf of his own king, Hygelac. So I don't hear anger, sadness, or indeed storytelling. I hear a diplomatic report, confirming details of the story (some of it seems to have already become known), and emphasising the links of goodwill that have been forged.

Is anyone else present when Beowulf tells this story, or is it just him and the king? Is there a poet nearby taking notes? If we imagine Beowulf's story to be historical rather than fictional, how would the story have been handed down to us?

Surely he's addressing the assembled court. I don't think this is a private interview. This is a big, prestige event. I don't think the poets took notes - most of them probably couldn't read or write - but they would have had a prodigious talent for committing to memory what they heard. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were also pretty good at spin doctoring! I think Beowulf's story is (mostly) historical and not fictional. All the political stuff, the feuds and marriages and so on, is surely historical. And the monsters would have grown from some historical kernel of truth as well, no doubt. The story really was handed down to us (or at least to the poet who wrote it down), by generations of storytellers. There wasn't really a division between history and fiction then anyway. History and story were the same word, and essentially the same thing.

What does Beowulf think of Hrothgar? Is it all good? Or does he see some weaknesses in Hrothgar's rulership?

Well, I'm not sure what Beowulf is actually implying in his story of what's likely to happen between the Danes and their former enemies the Heathobards. He imagines the scene of the Danes flaunting their war-trophies in front of the people they took them from, and yet he seems to imply that it's the Heathobards who are not in good faith. To me it looks as if it's the Danes who are acting in bad faith, but I'm not sure if Beowulf would say such a thing since Hrothgar the Dane is his people's new ally. Or maybe he's just being diplomatic?

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.

(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Nov 4 2007, 2:19pm)

Curious
Gondolin

Nov 6 2007, 2:54pm

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Thoughts. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

Hall seems to say the heirloom in question is a "collar," I think, while the Slade and Heaney come down in favor of some kind of weapon. But the poem also refers to treasure in a more general sense, perhaps including ringmail and other "ring-adorned" and "ring-precious" objects.

Quote

Wouldn't the Danes know better than to flaunt treasure they took from the Heathobards when visiting their former enemies?

I get the impression that the Danes and Heathobards had fought each other so often that they could not dress properly without wearing something taken during one of their battles.

Quote

Why are heirlooms worth so much to the Danes, Geats, Heathobards, and presumably the Anglo-Saxons? Are they just into antiques? Do they place great store on sentimental value? Or is there another reason why the age of the treasure has something to do with its value? Is there a historical basis for this value system, or is this simply the stuff of legends and myth and fiction? In other words, did ancient peoples really place such value on heirlooms? If so, why? How would the world be different if the best and most treasured items were also the oldest, rather than the newest?

As I understand it, old iron was treasured because it might have been made of steel. Accidental impurities in the forging process could result in weapons and armor that were harder than iron. Those items would last much longer than ordinary iron, and as a result would be treasured for very practical reasons.

On the other hand, in the pre-industrial era, when every item was one of a kind and none were disposable, people tended to hang on to all their possessions and hand them down from generation to generation. In a society with few technological innovations, a grandson could make use of everything owned by his grandfather.

But in the society described in the poem treasure also seems to relate to social status. It is a fluid society, in which foundlings can become kings, but kings must be able to dispense treasure in order to attract followers.

Also, in a society with no banks or checks or credit cards, and probably with little common coinage, treasure may have been worth more than money. Money, if it was used at all, may have been valued only for the metal with which it was made, and there would be no paper money. I don't recall any references to money or coins in this poem.

Quote

Okay, having briefly discussed why this truce won't last, Beowulf then tells us about his encounter with Grendel and Grendel's mother. Why do we hear this again? Why doesn't the poet just say that Beowulf told his king what has happened, without going through Beowulf's summary of the poem so far?

I suppose that the way Beowulf tells his story tells us something about Beowulf. Since we don't hear what Beowulf is thinking unless he says it aloud, the more chances he has to make speeches, the more chances we get to know him. So he makes lots of speeches, even when it seems somewhat repetitive. And often we get new information in what seems like rehashing of the same material.

Quote

How does Beowulf's summary of the poem so far differ from the poem so far? What new information does Beowulf relate that we haven't heard before? Why haven't we heard this information before?

We hear about the bag in which Grendel wanted to put Beowulf, and we hear the name of the man Grendel ate. Note that the bag or glove is made of dragon's skin, which implies that Grendel may have killed a dragon, which creates another parallel to Beowulf, who will eventually kill his own dragon.

Quote

What do we learn about Beowulf from hearing his account of what happened? Is Beowulf proud or modest or some mixture of both? Is that okay? Is Beowulf's report complete and accurate? Is it too long or too short? When the poet told us of Beowulf's feats he made sure to mention God or Fate (Weird), but does Beowulf do so? Should he? What did Beowulf think was important, and what did he omit?

Well, Beowulf certainly could have told a longer tale. This retelling is rather short, and just hits the highlights. Grendel ate a man, I fought Grendel, I prevailed, Hrothgar gave me rich rewards; Grendel's mother ate a man, I followed and fought Grendel's mother, I prevailed, Hrothgar gave me even more rich rewards.

I think it would be hard to tell the tale any more modestly than Beowulf does, although he does not seem to mention God or Fate as much as the poet has. Perhaps that is because Beowulf is supposed to be non-Christian, while the poet is clearly Christian. Beowulf does say "not doomed was I then" (Hall), "I was not doomed yet" (Slade), and "my time had not yet come" (Heaney). That's about as close as he comes to giving the credit to a Higher Power.

Quote

Is there any humor in Beowulf's story? Any anger? Any sadness? Is Beowulf a good storyteller? Does Beowulf have an agenda behind the story he tells his king and uncle?

I find the lines about Grendel leaving his arm behind wryly humorous. I find sadness and anger in the lines about the men who were killed and Beowulf's retribution. But for the most part Beowulf is just recounting the facts without lots of emotional rhetoric.

Quote

Is anyone else present when Beowulf tells this story, or is it just him and the king? Is there a poet nearby taking notes? If we imagine Beowulf's story to be historical rather than fictional, how would the story have been handed down to us?

I can't tell from the poem whether anyone else was present for this account. On the one hand I would think everyone would want to know about Beowulf's adventures, but on the other hand the discussion of whether the truce between the Danes and the Heathobards will hold sounds like something that might be intended for the king's ears alone. But even if this account was given to the king alone, I'm sure Beowulf and his men would be asked for the story many times over by other people, including any local poets.

Quote

What does Beowulf think of Hrothgar? Is it all good? Or does he see some weaknesses in Hrothgar's rulership?

I get the feeling that Beowulf pities Hrothgar because Hrothgar is old and can no longer do what Beowulf does. This foreshadows Beowulf' own old age later in the poem.

Curious
Gondolin

Nov 6 2007, 4:40pm

Post #4 of 17 (920 views)
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Thanks for Heaney's version. [In reply to]	Can't Post

The more translations the better, I suppose, when I don't know how to read the original.

The other translations don't make it clear whether we are talking about ring-mail or ring-adorned treasure or treasure worth many rings (rings almost seem to function like currency in this poem). But at any rate, I agree that rings are associated with treasure and that treasure is associated with endless feuds. And of course the poet is Christian, and perhaps a monk, so it seems quite possible that he did not approve of endless feuds, even though he recognized the virtue of generous ring-lords.

You talk about the Dark Ages as unique, but didn't Greek mythology also portray a decline from the Golden Age of yesteryear? Don't most mythologies portray history as a long decline? Look at the Bible -- and not just the Garden of Eden, but also the Tower of Babel, which was built in the Age when all men spoke one language. Then later the rule of David and Solomon was romanticized, probably well beyond the historical record. The Romans themselves mythologized the past, as we see in Virgil's Aeneid.

Only in the post-industrial world do we seem to mythologize the future, inventing science fiction to satisfy our fantasy needs. Although perhaps Christian tales of what will happen when Christ comes again, and other religious beliefs about the end of the world could be considered mythologizing the future. But usually the end comes only after the world has gone to hell.

As I said in my own response, I'm not sure the Danes are flaunting Heathobard treasure. I think the Danes may not be able to dress properly without someone wearing something that was formerly owned by the Heathobards.

(This post was edited by Curious on Nov 6 2007, 4:42pm)

Darkstone
Elvenhome

Nov 6 2007, 5:27pm

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"What I tell you three times is true." [In reply to]	Can't Post

Beowulf doubts that the peace between the Danes and Heathobards will last. Beowulf envisions one of the Heathobards recognizing an item that used to belong to his father, and now is worn by one of the Danes who slew his father. But what is the item to which Beowulf refers? Is it jewelry, a weapon, or something else? What does it look like? What is it made of?

It�s a �mece�, or a long double edged sword. I�d imagine it had a very distinctive hilt, which was no doubt quite ornate and had a couple of fine jewels set into it.

Wouldn't the Danes know better than to flaunt treasure they took from the Heathobards when visiting their former enemies?

A warrior has to wear his sword. Leaving it behind would be considered cowardly. In any case, a �ring� was portable wealth, which meant you wore it. Besides, if you left it at home your fellow Vikings would doubtless consider it fair game for pilfering.

Why are heirlooms worth so much to the Danes, Geats, Heathobards, and presumably the Anglo-Saxons?

Why such a fuss over the shards of Narsil? Or the silmarils?

Are they just into antiques?

An example of truth in advertising: �We buy junk and sell antiques.�

Do they place great store on sentimental value?

Yeah, deep inside Vikings were just big sentimental softies.

Or is there another reason why the age of the treasure has something to do with its value?

They just don�t make stuff like they used to.

Is there a historical basis for this value system, or is this simply the stuff of legends and myth and fiction?

Symbols of clan and kingship were very important. That�s why Hama handed Theoden �The sword of the king!� and not �Just any old sword lying around�.

In other words, did ancient peoples really place such value on heirlooms?

Yep. We do now as well. Just last month four captured battle flags from the American Revolutionary War were returned to the United States after more than 225 years.

http://www.history.org/...m?pressReleaseId=844

If so, why?

It�s who we were that makes us who we are.

How would the world be different if the best and most treasured items were also the oldest, rather than the newest?

That�s like the difference between America and Europe. In America we tear down a perfectly good building to put up another building. In Europe they knock out a wall renovating an apartment and find a long lost 16th century synagogue.

http://www.azcentral.com/...1226synagogue26.html

Okay, having briefly discussed why this truce won't last, Beowulf then tells us about his encounter with Grendel and Grendel's mother. Why do we hear this again?

Uncle Miltie�s Rule of Three: �People are idiots. You have to tell them three times.� Or as Tolkien�s fellow Oxfordian Charles Dodgson put it in another saga:

"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.

"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true."

Why doesn't the poet just say that Beowulf told his king what has happened, without going through Beowulf's summary of the poem so far?

The poet is reciting this to a hall full of people drinking mead. Remember, you don�t buy beer, you merely rent it. So after each much needed intermission you have to have a �Our story thus far� sequence.

How does Beowulf's summary of the poem so far differ from the poem so far?

Seems remarkably the same.

What new information does Beowulf relate that we haven't heard before?

The name of the guy who got eaten.

Why haven't we heard this information before?

Grief was too near.

What do we learn about Beowulf from hearing his account of what happened?

He seems pretty modest. It�s interesting to compare it to Beowulf�s earlier account of the swimming/rowing contest Obviously there was a lot more to that tale than he told us as well.

Is Beowulf proud or modest or some mixture of both?

He seems pleased to have his deeds generously recognized.

Is that okay?

Don�t we all?

Is Beowulf's report complete and accurate? Is it too long or too short?

He�s short and to the point. Exactly what is expected of a report from a military officer. This reveals another aspect of Beowulf.

When the poet told us of Beowulf's feats he made sure to mention God or Fate (Weird), but does Beowulf do so? Should he?

Just the facts, ma�am.

What did Beowulf think was important, and what did he omit?

He left out the coast guard�s challenge, and Unferth�s rudeness, and the intrigue between Wealhtheow and Hrothulf.

Is there any humor in Beowulf's story?

Some definitely non-PC �humor�. Handscio means �hand-shoe� or �glove�. And Beowulf later describes how Grendel tries to stuff him into his own �gl�f� (original), or �glove� (Hall), or �pouch� (Slade), or �tummy� (Darkstone).

Thus �Handscio� could be a nickname meaning �The Stomach�, which immediately brings to mind Bombur from the Hobbit, who likewise was a very sound sleeper and indeed could have been eaten whole by a monster without being any the wiser.

Another bit of humor is when he fights Grendel�s mother and they �share a hand� ("hand gema�ne") which suggests a handshake, or, since she�s a female, a dance. Of course earlier Beowulf describes Grendel as paying �hondl�an forgeald�, or �hand-payment� (or �hand requital�) in the form of getting his hand (and arm) torn off.

Any anger? Any sadness?

Handscio is �l�ofes mannes� or �beloved man�. That suggests another connotation for �glove�, which is probably best left expressed in the Language of Love:

La ot tante vermoille ansaigne,
et tante guinple et tante manche,
et tante bloe et tante blanche
qui par amors furent donees.

Is Beowulf a good storyteller?

Strikingly as good as the poet.

Does Beowulf have an agenda behind the story he tells his king and uncle?

He can�t make Hrothgar sound better than his own king.

Is anyone else present when Beowulf tells this story, or is it just him and the king?

There�s probably a meadhall full of drunks. I�m sure a lot of the political subtleties that go overt their heads are caught by the king.

Is there a poet nearby taking notes?

How else could we have gotten the story otherwise?

If we imagine Beowulf's story to be historical rather than fictional, how would the story have been handed down to us?

Orally.

What does Beowulf think of Hrothgar?

He�s pretty wise and generous. Perhaps Beowulf is giving subtle hints to his own king?

Is it all good?

Is being wise worth getting old?

Or does he see some weaknesses in Hrothgar's rulership?

Well, when you get old perhaps it�s best not to complain or dwell on it. But then, when you get old what else is there to do for fun?

Any other comments?

It�s interesting that in the beginning it�s an �old ash-warrior� (�eald �scwiga�) who is seen as potentially stirring up trouble by remembering about past possessions of captured heirlooms. Yet later �schere (�Ash-spear�) is praised as a wise old counselor (�fr�dan fyrnwitan�). It would seem that Anglo-Saxons viewed the wisdom of age as a double edged sword. Kind of like the wise Istari being deliberately limited by confinement in the bodies of old men.

Speaking of old men, sorry I'm a bit late but my cardiologist has been demanding all my time lately.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.�

FarFromHome
Doriath

Nov 6 2007, 10:24pm

Post #6 of 17 (890 views)
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Golden Ages [In reply to]	Can't Post

do seem to be a constant, don't they?

In Reply To

You talk about the Dark Ages as unique, but didn't Greek mythology also portray a decline from the Golden Age of yesteryear?

But I think regrets for a lost Golden Age are often more about a decline in morals rather than a loss of technology or knowledge. Even today we're convinced that kids used to be more polite, the streets used to be cleaner, people used to be friendlier, or whatever. And surely people used to spell better than they do now? Wink

These early centuries after the Romans left Britain, though, were quite literally much poorer than before, in almost every way. It wasn't just an impression of things not being what they used to be, but a real crash from highly-evolved, efficient systems (civil engineering, written history and literature, centralized government) to "thatched barns", oral storytelling and tribal feuding. No doubt you're right that these centuries weren't unique in this - similar "dark ages" must have happened many times (and might again). Whenever a great civilization self-destructs, there's going to be a time when people have to live among the ruins left behind by people of now-unimaginable power and knowledge. It's at times like this that anything you can save from the ruins is going to seem particularly precious, as the heirlooms of Beowulf do.

I was always taught that it was in the Enlightenment of the 18th century that the idea of Progress was "invented". The scientific revolution perhaps, rather than the industrial one that came out of it. It was at this point that people started to look forward and believe that they had the power to make things better, instead of resigning themselves to fate. But events of the 20th century certainly revealed the downside of this idea.

Since both you and Darkstone agree that the Danes have no choice but to end up antagonizing the Heathobards by what they wear, I'm certainly not going to argue. I was a bit surprised that Beowulf would seem to be criticizing the Danes in this way at all. So I'm glad to know there's good reason to believe they are not blameworthy after all.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.

Curious
Gondolin

Nov 7 2007, 12:43am

Post #7 of 17 (891 views)
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Except [In reply to]	Can't Post

that the Anglo-Saxons would not remember Roman Britain, nor would the Danes or Geats. So I don't think they would look back to Roman Britain as a Golden Age. On the contrary, they might consider the fall of Rome the beginning of their Golden Age, since that is when their conquest of Britain began.

Curious
Gondolin

Nov 7 2007, 3:50pm

Post #8 of 17 (939 views)
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So Grendel's tummy is made of dragon skins? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I didn't get that from any of the translations, but it's an interesting interpretation.

I did get the impression that there was more wry humor in Beowulf's tale, so thanks for pointing out some possible jokes. However I don't read French, so I'll have to imagine what your cite says.

I remember when reading Shakespeare that many jokes had to be explained in footnotes, after which they weren't quite so funny. It's a real challenge to convey Shakespeare's humor to a modern audience from the stage, without the benefit of footnotes, especially when the humor is rather rude.

I do hope your visits with the cardiologist are not serious. And you're not late, I am, since I have moved my posts to Thursday, and posted this one last Friday.

FarFromHome
Doriath

Nov 7 2007, 4:11pm

Post #9 of 17 (887 views)
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It's true [In reply to]	Can't Post

that the Anglo-Saxons wouldn't personally remember the Romans, but the memory of such things can live a long time - in the 19th century when their myths were collected, the Irish Celts were still telling stories about the "Fairy folk" who preceded them on the island, who they believed were immortal but had withdrawn underground to live in the great mounds like Newgrange. Archaeology has shown that these "Fairy folk" flourished about 3000 years earlier, at the time the pyramids were being built in Egypt, and were clearly advanced in astronomy and the building techniques that have allowed their "passage tombs" to survive under those mounds. The Celts had kept a memory of them alive for 5000 years.

It's also true that the Vikings (as I'll call all these Nordic tribes for convenience) had no interest in Roman book-learning - when they raided the monasteries on the coast of Ireland, where the last vestiges of Roman learning still clung on, they ripped the jewelled covers off the books and tossed the pages into the nearest bog. (Luckily leather pages can survive in bog, so enough has survived at least for us to know what we've lost.)

On the other hand, I'm quite sure that the Vikings were pretty happy to get their hands on any weapons and armour made in Roman Britain before the Roman-taught skills were lost. That's why those heirlooms were so important, I believe. They were quite literally irreplaceable, because later smiths could not equal such work. That's why it would be worth reforging an old sword if it got broken, because even the metal would be better than they could produce themselves. And it may be why old swords were thought to have magical powers, like flashing and glowing when they're used. A sword made with Roman techniques would gleam, while an Anglo-Saxon one was probably rough and dull. The difference really could look like magic, I guess.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.

Darkstone
Elvenhome

Nov 7 2007, 4:31pm

Post #10 of 17 (1072 views)
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Was Beowulf Gay? [In reply to]	Can't Post

So Grendel's tummy is made of dragon skins?

Yep. Apparently Grendel could eat a man whole including armor, sword, shoes, hair, and bones. Today we�d call it a �cast iron stomach�.

I didn't get that from any of the translations, but it's an interesting interpretation

Well, Breeden and Hall are often old fuddy-duddies
.

I did get the impression that there was more wry humor in Beowulf's tale, so thanks for pointing out some possible jokes. However I don't read French, so I'll have to imagine what your cite says.

It�s from Chr�tien de Troyes�s 12th century Arthurian cycle poem �Erec et Enide�. There�s a long description of a joust where they talk about the �lances� of the knights and the �sleeves� of the ladies which probably only seems ribald because of my own questionable character.

A translation is:

�Many an ensign of red, blue, and white, many a veil and many a sleeve were bestowed as tokens of love.�

So. Was Beowulf gay? Was Handscio his cute little nickname for his beloved "glove" or "sleeve"?

I remember when reading Shakespeare that many jokes had to be explained in footnotes, after which they weren't quite so funny. It's a real challenge to convey Shakespeare's humor to a modern audience from the stage, without the benefit of footnotes, especially when the humor is rather rude.

I find the same problem with Italian opera.

I do hope your visits with the cardiologist are not serious.

Thanks. I should find out the 26th. I got three doctors and my wife conspiring against me.

And you're not late, I am, since I have moved my posts to Thursday, and posted this one last Friday.

Ah. Well, thanks again for your efforts and leadership. I do wish more people would participate. I�ve tried to spur participation with naughty riddles and a picture of Angelina Jolie in a catsuit but nothing seems to work. Maybe the heading �Was Beowulf Gay?� will get the view count up.

Curious
Gondolin

Nov 7 2007, 4:47pm

Post #11 of 17 (947 views)
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We do have numerous lurkers. [In reply to]	Can't Post

And several people have told me that they appreciate the series, even though they do not contribute. So your ribald interpretations are not falling on deaf ears. Or deaf eyes. Or blind eyes. Or, well, you know what I mean.

Curious
Gondolin

Nov 7 2007, 5:46pm

Post #12 of 17 (905 views)
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I don't know about steel, but most of the gold [In reply to]	Can't Post

in northern Europe probably came from ransacking the treasure of the fallen Roman Empire. You may also be correct about steel weapons and armor originating with Roman smiths. And even if those weapons and armor did not survive, legends about them may have survived.

Still, every mythology seems to look backward to a Golden Age until modern times, when the idea of Progress was invented, and technological innovations became the norm. Yes, we still have nostalgia, and we have not given up on mythological fantasy, but we still live in a world of constant technological innovations, very different from any time or place in the world prior to, say, 1750, if not 1815.

Elizabeth
Gondolin

Nov 7 2007, 10:34pm

Post #13 of 17 (914 views)
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Sometimes lurkers even laugh. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Keep 'em coming Darkstone, we all love you.

Son of Elizabeth in Frodo's tree
March, 2007

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'

dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator

Nov 8 2007, 12:32am

Post #14 of 17 (925 views)
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It's just that we're embarassed to write only "LOL!"s. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Do forgive us, we're getting our first full wallop of this stuff, and boy are we getting wallopped! So much of it is beyond our abilities to respond in an even half-coherent manner. Crazy

But this is better than any class we could have had.

So we're loving it! Well, then, maybe we should express more "Wow!"s and "Whoa!"s!

*makes note to shake the dust off the cheerleader pompoms* Will do.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915

N.E. Brigand
Gondolin

Nov 8 2007, 4:59am

Post #15 of 17 (913 views)
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Wow! Whoa! // [In reply to]	Can't Post

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Nov. 5-11 for "Three Is Company".

Elizabeth
Gondolin

Nov 8 2007, 7:59am

Post #16 of 17 (890 views)
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Heaney's version [In reply to]	Can't Post

is the first I've been able to read right through (about a year ago). It's a good balance of accessible language and poetry. Prior to that, I only remembered Beowulf in high school as being slightly preferable to waterboarding.

Son of Elizabeth in Frodo's tree
March, 2007

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'

FantasyFan
Nargothrond

Nov 8 2007, 3:53pm

Post #17 of 17 (913 views)
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well it made me click! [In reply to]	Can't Post

As did the one with the ribald riddle. Do you know, I read that same riddle in a Tolkien fanfiction story, where it was put into the mouth of and earthy woman of Rohan teasing a bride to be...

"That is one thing that Men call 'hope.' Amdir we call it, 'looking up.' But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is 'trust.' It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and First Being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End. Of all His designs the issue must be for His children's joy."
Finrod, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, HoME X Morgoth's Ring

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