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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 17 2012, 1:29pm
Post #1 of 20
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One does not simply walk into Mordor....
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...Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs." - Boromir in Rivendell (Council of Elrond)
When I first watched FOTR I tried to imagine what "more than just orcs" meant. Especially after Gandalfs similar quote after entering Moria "There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world". We just saw the Watcher in the Water. And later we saw the Balrog. Two very old and evil creatures and a Cave Troll too. After that I tried to think of what evil creatures could possibly guard the Black Gates of Mordor the Land of Shadow and Evil?
In TTT we got to see them... a bunch of orcs and two trolls and a small army of Easterlings. To be honest, I was a bit disappointed.
In ROTK we returned to the Black Gate. A new hope. Perhaps more than last time? And different things than on the Battle of Minas Tirith? Not really. 10.000 orcs, one or two trolls, a black Numenorean, 8 wraith on wings... yes. After Boromirs famous sentence I expected "more than just orcs (and trolls)".
WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Escapist
Mithlond
Oct 17 2012, 1:44pm
Post #2 of 20
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nazgul, huge trolls, the eye, and shelob
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are each worth noting as "worse than orcs".
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 17 2012, 1:55pm
Post #3 of 20
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Actually the Nazgûl do not guard the Black Gate do they? Neither does Shelob. And the Eye does not count because Boromir uses it in the sentence later: "[..] There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful." To put it simply: There are worse than orcs and also there is the watchful Great Eye. And the two trolls in TTT do not look that worse.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Escapist
Mithlond
Oct 17 2012, 2:12pm
Post #4 of 20
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I also remember some kind of sentinel statue that scared the heck out of Sam when he tried to rescue Frodo from the tower that the statue seemed to be guarding (in the book)(no this isn't the black gate either) and the Mouth of Sauron.
Do you think that Boromir was referring to the black gate only? How much of a perimeter would you give around it? Do you think the nazgul and the eye don't ever watch it or appear near it?
It sounds like you were expecting something - what was it?
I immediately thought of the nine and the eye.
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Lindele
Mithlond
Oct 17 2012, 6:28pm
Post #5 of 20
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everything in it and of it is evil. the epitomy of evil.
and yes, Sauron absolutely DOES count as 'more than just orcs'
just because we didn't see everything that exists in Mordor on screen does not mean it wasn't there.
i think his statement was completely appropriate.
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Plurmo
Nargothrond
Oct 18 2012, 4:02am
Post #6 of 20
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"there is evil there that does not sleep," that reminds me of Faramir telling Frodo about Minas Morgul "it is a place of sleepless malice, full of lidless eyes" and that reflects the lore they learned more than their own experience about those places.
In any case it must be taken into account that in the original form of the movie when the Morannon was finally opened, there was more than just orcs there. There was Sauron himself.
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TheBladeGlowsBlue
Ossiriand
Oct 18 2012, 4:38am
Post #7 of 20
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I also remember some kind of sentinel statue that scared the heck out of Sam when he tried to rescue Frodo from the tower that the statue seemed to be guarding (in the book)(no this isn't the black gate either) and the Mouth of Sauron.
Do you think that Boromir was referring to the black gate only? How much of a perimeter would you give around it? Do you think the nazgul and the eye don't ever watch it or appear near it?
It sounds like you were expecting something - what was it?
I immediately thought of the nine and the eye.
Yes there were two statues guarding the tower in the books, it was a creepy read and I was a bit disappointed they didn't make it into the film (or the extended versions)...you see them as Sam round the corner, but the next scene he is running into the tower.
It would have been a nice link back to Boromir's comment...
(This post was edited by TheBladeGlowsBlue on Oct 18 2012, 4:39am)
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 18 2012, 9:43am
Post #8 of 20
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"Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful."
But because he mentiones Sauron right afterwards I always interpreted it as a kind of enumeration like "orcs, more evil things than orcs and not to forget the ever watchful Great Eye". But after reading this line again and again I see that you can also refer everything to the Great Eye. When he talks of "there is evil there" he meant Sauron. And later it seems that way round.
But (as I mentioned before) after Gandalfs similar quote in Moria and the Watcher in the Water/Balrog encounter I was hoping for something different in Mordor, something we haven't had seen before (Nazgûl, trolls, orcs and the Great Eye appeared before in FOTR). I expected something like these stone statues that watched Cirith Ungol which could not be passed by mortals (in the book) and only with the help of the Phial Frodo and Sam were able to pass them. They would have been something new, evil and sleepless. Unfortunately they appeared twice in the movie (Minas Morgul and Cirith Ungol) but only as statues and not as actual watchers.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Plurmo
Nargothrond
Oct 18 2012, 4:21pm
Post #9 of 20
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That kind of frustration is the fate of the Tolkien reader...
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"He had many hardships and adventures before he got back. The Wild was still the Wild, and there were many other things in it in those days beside goblins..."
Certainly the Towers of the Teeth in the Morannon had magical protections, but we never see them at work because those "Two Towers" remained unconquered till they fell down in ruin. Boromir was right. Trying to pass the Black Gates would be the end of the Quest.
Anyway we never entered Minas Morgul or Barad-dûr either, but we will have a chance now in Dol Guldur. Let's hope PJ gives us his true cinema magic instead of mute statues and rolling skulls made of cheese.
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Ereinion Nénharma
Menegroth
Oct 18 2012, 8:04pm
Post #10 of 20
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and I feel the same. It did kind of disappoint me too, having 'nothing new' at the Black Gate. It was 'just another horde of orcs'.
In addition, I was not at all spooked out about how the Black Land itself looked (in fact, I think Dol Guldur is going to look far more creepy). That too was a missed opportunity imho. The same with Sauron, actually.
I absolutely love the movies, but 'evil' in general should have been much more potent and scary, imho.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Mithlond
Oct 18 2012, 8:54pm
Post #11 of 20
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It is a rather stupid line, as is "They have a cave troll"
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But they've still become classic quotes nonetheless!
"Radagast is, of course, a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue, and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends."-Gandalf, The Lord of the Rings.
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Noel Q. von Schneiffel
Ossiriand
Oct 20 2012, 2:25pm
Post #14 of 20
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Maybe you misunderstood Boromir's quote
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"...Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs."
Maybe this is simply a misunderstanding. He meant "by orcs who are more than just". They would be like normal orcs, only extremely just. So no passing unless it's really justified.
The Glorious Truth of J.R.R. Tolkien
Radiates from his Holy Writings
http://www.tolkientruth.info/
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 20 2012, 4:18pm
Post #15 of 20
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IF (and it's a big IF) you're right you surely can tell me what's so "not just" about these Orcs we've seen at the Black Gate in TTT. To me they look like usual Mordor Orcs not even Black Uruks.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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TheBladeGlowsBlue
Ossiriand
Oct 22 2012, 12:15pm
Post #16 of 20
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I feel PJ missed a golden opportunity to introduce the most dispicable of orcs of all.
Maybe this recent decision to make the Hobbit into 3 movies is his attempt/opportunity to fix this?
He wimped out IMHO when Gandalf's Army approached the Black Gates...he could have created cinematic history, instead he went Hollywood...
Maybe this time...?
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Ereinion Nénharma
Menegroth
Oct 22 2012, 9:47pm
Post #17 of 20
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do you feel he ''could have created cinematic history'' with the Battle of Morannon?
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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TheBladeGlowsBlue
Ossiriand
Oct 23 2012, 12:19am
Post #18 of 20
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..including the Mouth of Sauron (he did make it to the extended version, albeit with PJ's twist to his eventual fate, another unnecessary departure from the books), and more dialogue from Gandalf... PJ seemed more concerned about the visuals, rather than setting the scene properly with what was at stake - it felt more like a jolly jaunt with Gimli cracking jokes along the way.
It is still a great trilogy, I am not knocking that, as a set of movies they would be hard to beat but the final battle felt a bit tacked on for me.
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Ereinion Nénharma
Menegroth
Oct 23 2012, 9:54am
Post #19 of 20
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It could have been done better.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Durin's Folk
Lindon
Oct 23 2012, 3:13pm
Post #20 of 20
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I expected to see trolls heavy armored riding drakes and kamikaze goblins with bombs attached to them like in the LOTR war in the North game.
"But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: 'Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!' An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled."
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