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Humbert
Lindon
Nov 6 2007, 2:59pm
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Ch 3. "Three is Company" - Pt 2: With This Ring...
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Whew! At least the first topic wasn’t a complete disaster. My habit is always to start with a gag - it seems to make the rest come easier. I have no such japery this time round, however, so it’s time for me to pull up my socks and get on with it. Hopefully you can forgive the lack of jokes!
I find while preparing this discussion that my ability to extract topics from this particular chapter is not really what it could be. I do encourage people to expand on the material presented by me, to feel perfectly free to elaborate and speak on topics not necessarily prompted by me.
This post will focus on the presentation of the Ring in “Three is Company”. Saelind’s previous discussion on “Shadow of the Past” led to some wonderful insights into the Ring and its effects. Nevertheless, let us take a few minutes to examine its presence in this chapter.
As Gandalf prepares to leave Hobbiton (fully expecting at this time to be back before Frodo sets out), he advises: “Let me impress on you once more: don’t use it!”
What potential uses does Gandalf imagine Frodo may find for the Ring within the Shire?
Bilbo has used the Ring many times without ill effect. (He may have had trouble giving up the ring, but Frodo has exhibited the same reluctance without having actually worn it himself anyway.) Later on, the Ring will be worn by Sam even on the edges of Sauron’s home territory without any trouble - indeed, in several ways it will aid Sam.
Why does Gandalf suddenly seem so desperate to convince Frodo not to wear it? Has Frodo shown any prior compulsion to put on the Ring?
In early drafts (especially in what Christopher Tolkien calls the ‘First Phase’ of writing), Tolkien had Frodo (actually ‘Bingo’ - the character who would ultimately be named ‘Frodo’) wear the Ring (or “the ring” with no capital, as its identity had not been ultimately decided yet) quite often, and without consequence - even around the Black Riders.
In a set of notes for revising the drafts for the so-called ‘Second Phase’ of writing (after Rivendell had been reached in the first attempt), the Professor realizes this problem.
Bingo must NOT put on his Ring when Black Riders go by - in view of later developments. He must think of doing so but somehow be prevented. Each time the temptation must grow stronger.
In the finished LR, at Frodo’s first encounter with a Black Rider, he resists putting on the Ring, but does grasp it with his fist. How good is Frodo at resisting the increasing temptation? Does Tolkien believably present situations where Frodo is “prevented” from wearing it? How satisfying is it, dramatically, to have Frodo evade temptation by being “prevented” rather than overcoming it by his own will?
When discussing Frodo’s destination, he cannot see what his goal may be - merely to go and not to return.
’But you cannot see very far,’ said Gandalf. ‘Neither can I. It may be your task to find the Cracks of Doom; but that quest may be for others.’
Is it too early to suggest that Frodo may take the Ring to Orodruin? How likely is Frodo to make the journey if he thinks this is an option? Would it help provide motivation, or be a stumbling block? Why would Gandalf even suggest it at this stage? Does it detract from Frodo’s choice in Rivendell to have it presented thus here?
As discussed yesterday, Gandalf (as in “The Hobbit”) bails on the party. The excuse he gives is that: “I have heard something that has made me anxious and needs looking into.”
What has he heard that disturbed him so? How has he “heard” it, remaining as he has in the Shire for two months?
When you first read this, were you disconcerted to see Gandalf leave, or did this trepidation not set in until his failure to return? How ominous, at this early stage, is Gandalf’s departure?
On the wooded road, Frodo and company hide from a mysterious black-garbed rider. As it sniffs for them, Frodo is overcome by an urge to put on the Ring.
However, a short time ago he was near a Rider in Hobbiton who was enquiring about Frodo to the Gaffer. Frodo felt no such compulsion then.
Is this effect a conscious choice on the part of the Ringwraith, to cause ring-lust in Frodo? How much will does a wraith have to exert to create this effect? How close does it have to be? Does the fact that it uses this now (rather than continuously ‘emitting’ the effect) mean that it knows Frodo is near? Why would it ride off when Frodo grasps the ring - partly succumbing to the urge?
Anthing else that strikes you about the Ring’s presentation in this chapter?
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Nov 6 2007, 3:20pm
Post #2 of 39
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What potential uses does Gandalf imagine Frodo may find for the Ring within the Shire?
Oh, nothing more serious than hiding from unwanted visitors or passersby, as Bilbo used to do, I imagine. However ...
Why does Gandalf suddenly seem so desperate to convince Frodo not to wear it?
I think the reason is that, now that Sauron knows it was found and is actively searching for it, probing with his mind and who knows what spies, Gandalf is worried that any use of the Ring could be perceived by Sauron. Perhaps the Ring itself "knows" that its Master knows it was found — and would be all the more likely to slip off accidentally on a country walk, abandoning Frodo as it did Isildur. Only to be picked up by Ted Sandyman or a passing craban.
What has he heard that disturbed him so? How has he “heard” it, remaining as he has in the Shire for two months?
Perhaps a passing fox? 
When you first read this, were you disconcerted to see Gandalf leave, or did this trepidation not set in until his failure to return? How ominous, at this early stage, is Gandalf’s departure?
Very. When Gandalf's anxious, I'm anxious!
However, a short time ago he was near a Rider in Hobbiton who was enquiring about Frodo to the Gaffer. Frodo felt no such compulsion then.
And this was Khaműl (as we're told in "The Hunt for the Ring"), second worst after only the Witch-king himself, so it's all the more surprising. Frodo did feel "a great relief" that the "black chap" didn't come on up the Hill, but it's nowhere near the fear and anxiety he'll feel on the road later on. So perhaps there is indeed some conscious will required on the part of the Ringwraiths. We do know they were still, at this stage, trying to be quiet and unobtrusive. Why am I picturing a big, black Ringwraith tiptoing and saying, ŕ la Elmer Fudd, "Be vewy, vewy kwiet — I'm hunting Hobbits!"
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 6 2007, 3:44pm
Post #3 of 39
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Hey! What am I going to entitle my post?
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Humbert
Lindon
Nov 6 2007, 3:50pm
Post #4 of 39
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Other people (including me, just now!) don't seem to mind stealing Darkstone's subject heading.
You can always use the variant: "Quick thoughts".
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 6 2007, 4:18pm
Post #6 of 39
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What potential uses does Gandalf imagine Frodo may find for the Ring within the Shire?
I find it quite remarkable that Bilbo and Frodo resisted the temptation to use the Ring for more than avoiding the Sackville-Baggins. In the Greek tales of the Ring of Gyges told by Herodotus and Plato, invisibility alone proved to be an irresistible temptation. How virtuous would any of us be if we knew we could not get caught? But I'm sure Gandalf simply imagined Frodo avoiding unwanted visitors or the like.
Why does Gandalf suddenly seem so desperate to convince Frodo not to wear it? Has Frodo shown any prior compulsion to put on the Ring?
No, I don't think Frodo has shown any prior compulsion to put on the Ring. But then the Ring has been laying dormant for quite some time. Gandalf leaves because of another hunch -- remember he leaves before he meets Radagast -- therefore Gandalf, as usual, sounds a bit mysterious. Later, of course, we will learn that the Nazgul are coming for the Ring, and therefore that Frodo should not use the Ring and expose himself to the Nazgul. But Gandalf can't explain all that because he does not yet know any of that -- he just has a hunch that Frodo should not wear the Ring.
How good is Frodo at resisting the increasing temptation? Does Tolkien believably present situations where Frodo is “prevented” from wearing it? How satisfying is it, dramatically, to have Frodo evade temptation by being “prevented” rather than overcoming it by his own will?
Frodo is excellent at resisting temptation, but without intervention he would succumb. I think the fortuitous incidents that prevent Frodo from wearing the Ring feed my theory that Higher Powers are at work. Even if you don't want to see it as Higher Powers, I don't think anyone can deny that luck or fortune plays an important role in Frodo's adventure, just as it did in Bilbo's. That is by design, though, and consistent throughout the tale, and therefore to me it doesn't feel like cheating. And despite Frodo's luck, he must also find courage and use his wits and virtue in order to accomplish his quest. Plus, of course, we can debate whether in the long run Frodo's fate can be considered lucky or tragic.
Is it too early to suggest that Frodo may take the Ring to Orodruin? How likely is Frodo to make the journey if he thinks this is an option? Would it help provide motivation, or be a stumbling block? Why would Gandalf even suggest it at this stage? Does it detract from Frodo’s choice in Rivendell to have it presented thus here?
I think Frodo knows quite well it is his fate to go to Mount Doom, and so does Gandalf, but neither of them wish to speak about it now. Gandalf is not suggesting it, but delicately setting it aside for the future. So they both pretend this is simply a trip to Rivendell, which sounds much more pleasant. Even so, Frodo is hardly motivated to leave, and delays it as long as possible.
What has he heard that disturbed him so? How has he “heard” it, remaining as he has in the Shire for two months?
Gandalf apparently has not heard anything specific from Radagast, based on their later conversation. Perhaps he simply sensed that Radagast was looking for him. Or perhaps he sensed something even more ominous. Whatever Gandalf heard, I would think he either heard it in his mind or sensed it as a hunch. Although Radagast is friends with animals and birds, and could have sent such creatures to search for Gandalf, and send a message to him.
When you first read this, were you disconcerted to see Gandalf leave, or did this trepidation not set in until his failure to return? How ominous, at this early stage, is Gandalf’s departure?
I don't remember my first reading, but I'm sure I found it quite ominous. On the other hand, it's a long book, and not the kind of book where I expect any of the heroes to die. So at most I probably experienced a mild tension, mixed with anticipation for what would happen in Gandalf's inevitable absence.
Is this effect a conscious choice on the part of the Ringwraith, to cause ring-lust in Frodo? How much will does a wraith have to exert to create this effect? How close does it have to be? Does the fact that it uses this now (rather than continuously ‘emitting’ the effect) mean that it knows Frodo is near? Why would it ride off when Frodo grasps the ring - partly succumbing to the urge?
No, I think it is a conscious choice on the part of the Ring, to compel Frodo to put it on and expose himself to the Ringwraith. But the Ring must work with Frodo's own desire to become invisible, for at this stage Frodo still thinks the Ring will protect him, rather than expose him. When Frodo saw the stranger speaking with the Gaffer he had no desire to hide. But when the stranger was following him, and trying to sniff him out, Frodo did have a desire to hide, and so the Ring had something to work with.
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weaver
Gondolin
Nov 6 2007, 4:23pm
Post #7 of 39
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playing it safe and Providence lends a hand...
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Gandalf doesn't know the whole story yet, so I think his advice is sound -- asking Frodo to keep the Ring out of circulation until he knows just what they are dealing with makes sense.
In terms of Frodo being "prevented" from using the Ring early on -- rather than exercising his own will -- well, we are still in the realm of "innocence" here. I think Frodo's being "looked after", for now when it comes to the Ring... Providence, chance or Higher Powers or whatever you want to call it are intervening until Frodo is more "seasoned" and Gandalf gets a game plan going.
The powers for good are free to act at this stage, because Frodo doesn't know enough to inadvertently block them, and also because they can act without tipping their hand, since the "bad powers" don't have the knowledge of the Ring's exact whereabouts yet. Once Frodo is aware and an active participant, the Higher Powers take more of a "back seat", intervening only in major moments of crisis, and more at the invitation of someone, rather than on their own.
Weaver
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 6 2007, 7:45pm
Post #8 of 39
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That's why Tolkien was so ambiguous
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about whether the Higher Powers played any role at all in the story. The more prominent their role, the more Frodo seems like a puppet.
So for those of us who believe that the Higher Powers were heavily involved, does that make Frodo a puppet? No, Frodo has free will. He could have failed. The danger was real. But the danger was not so much that he would be conquered by force, but rather that his faith would fail him. Frodo's quest is not a test of physical strength, but a test of faith.
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drogo
Menegroth
Nov 6 2007, 8:52pm
Post #9 of 39
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--What potential uses does Gandalf imagine Frodo may find for the Ring within the Shire?
Gandalf is now fearful that any use of the Ring could be dangerous, even if it is used for seemingly innocuous purposes such as hiding from the S-Bs.
--Why does Gandalf suddenly seem so desperate to convince Frodo not to wear it? Has Frodo shown any prior compulsion to put on the Ring?
Gandalf has seen how the Ring slowly grows in its power over an individual, so now that years have passed, he wants to make sure that Frodo does not become obsessive about it in a proto-Gollumesque way. Bilbo was able to give it up, yes, but not all are like Bilbo.
--How good is Frodo at resisting the increasing temptation? Does Tolkien believably present situations where Frodo is “prevented” from wearing it? How satisfying is it, dramatically, to have Frodo evade temptation by being “prevented” rather than overcoming it by his own will?
Having Frodo prevented from putting on the Ring would not really help with the development of his character. We see more of his free will and determination this way.
More later as I have time.
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Kdgard
Nevrast
Nov 6 2007, 11:41pm
Post #10 of 39
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"What potential uses does Gandalf....?": I'm in agreement with the others that Gandalf probably figured that Frodo would want to innocently use The Ring to avoid anyone he didn't want to talk to at the moment.
"Why does Gandalf suddenly seem so desperate....?": I think this is simply because now Gandalf knows for certain that it is The One and he knows exactly how dangerous this thing is. He may not know the Nazgul on hot on the trail yet, but he does know the power of Mordor is growing and he knows there is a link between Sauron and The One. Maybe using The Ring will draw the attention of The Eye and maybe it won't but, if you were Gandalf, would you want to take that chance?
"How satisfying is it, dramatically, to have Frodo evade temptation by being 'prevented' rather than overcoming it by his own will?": I think it's not only satisfying, but also EXTREMELY necessary. Others have suggested that Frodo being "prevented" from using The Ring somehow detracts from Frodo's character because it downplays his will power. I disagree. Frodo should not be able to always resist The Ring by will power alone. Why? Well, look at past and future events. Isildur was overpowered by The Ring. Gollum was overpowered. Bilbo was heading down that road as well. Gandalf and Elrond fear the power of The Ring. Lady Galadriel is almost tempted by its lure, and Boromir will succumb to its call. The will powers of the great and the wise and the powerful are no match for The One Ring. If Frodo could always resist The Ring by sheer will alone, that would make him the mightiest being in Middle-Earth. If that was the case, then Frodo wouldn't seem so heroic because The Ring would just be a trinket to him and the quest wouldn't really be a big deal. On the other hand, if Frodo's will isn't always enough and he must sometimes be "prevented" from using The Ring, then that just brings him down to Earth and actually makes him seem more heroic because it really demonstrates the burden he is dealing with.
"....were you disconcerted to see Gandalf leave, or did this trepidation not set in until his failure to return....?": Actually, for me, the nervousness set in when Gandalf failed to return. We're used to seeing Gandalf come and go at will, but we're also used to seeing him return in the knick of time (the three trolls, the Great Goblin, the Battle of the 5 armies). Here we have these darn scary Ringwraiths to deal with and no sign of Gandalf and even Aragorn will fear for him. Definitely things that make you go hmmmmm!
"Is this effect a conscious choice on the part of the Ringwraith....?": I don't think Frodo is experiencing Ring-lust (say, is that anything like Penguin Lust? Just seeing if there are any other Bloom County fans out there)---anyway, I don't think it's Ring-lust. I think it's plain old fear. The Ringwraith is scary and Frodo still thinks The Ring can hide him from danger. I also don't think that the Ringwraiths cause Ring-lust. Instead, I think they are always mentally "calling" for The Ring, ("Where are you?") and The Ring wants to answer. The Ring knows that if Frodo puts it on, it will be like a beacon for the Nazgul, so it plays on Frodo's fear while the wraith is sniffing around to try and get Frodo to put it on. Why is it more prevalent on the road than in the Shire? Because, in the Shire Frodo still feels safe because he's...well, in the Shire. Also, the black rider hadn't zoomed in on him yet. The Wraith knew he was getting in the right general area, but he hadn't locked in on his target yet. Out on the road in the woods, Frodo is afraid because he's in strange and potentially dangerous territory and he knows he's being pursued. Also, the Ringwraiths now know they are hot on the heels of their quarry and are probably really focusing on The Ring now. So, more alert Nazgul and frightening surroundings help make it easier for The Ring to try and tempt Frodo to put it on. Basically, it is still The Ring tempting Frodo and not the Ringwraiths causing The Ring to tempt Frodo. When Frodo doesn't put The Ring on, the wraith can't find him and so moves on to continue its search.
Kdgard
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weaver
Gondolin
Nov 7 2007, 12:06am
Post #11 of 39
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you know, I've never thought of Frodo as a puppet...
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I've always felt that the work of "higher powers" was more of a gift, or a reward, or well, something that Frodo sort of "merited" in some way -- that when he was being led or aided, it was because he had opened the door for that to happen for him. Even in these early scenes, his willingness to be a participant, to trust Gandalf, to set out grants him a certain grace.
But I could see where it could be interpreted that Frodo is being used, or a victim, or powerless, etc., so the vagueness on Tolkien's part helps from drawing those conclusions.
Thanks for making me think this through a bit further...
Weaver
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Nov 7 2007, 3:31am
Post #12 of 39
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As Gandalf prepares to leave Hobbiton (fully expecting at this time to be back before Frodo sets out), he advises: “Let me impress on you once more: don’t use it!”
What potential uses does Gandalf imagine Frodo may find for the Ring within the Shire?
It strikes me that perhaps -- just perhaps -- Gandalf worries that the Tookish part of Frodo might be curious enough to try the Ring on. That would definitely be a concern if Pippin were the Ringbearer, and even though Frodo is much more sensible, the warning is worth repeating.
Is it too early to suggest that Frodo may take the Ring to Orodruin? How likely is Frodo to make the journey if he thinks this is an option? Would it help provide motivation, or be a stumbling block? Why would Gandalf even suggest it at this stage? Does it detract from Frodo’s choice in Rivendell to have it presented thus here?
It is early and rather shocking at this stage to suggest that Frodo may soon be on a journey to the almost mythical Cracks of Doom. Yet I think the suggestion needed to be planted in Frodo's head or he would not think it was even possible. Saying it now gives him plenty of time to get used to the idea and to make a choice that is not just an impulse decision at the Council of Elrond.
Sorry about all the bold type. I can't turn it off for some unknown reason.
Where's Frodo?
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 7 2007, 4:04am
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I don't think that Frodo at this point realizes that his task is to go to Orodruin, although just the hint that this is possible implies that it may be. Of course we know: Frodo is the obvious hero of the story, and Orodruin is the obvious place to have a climax.
Thinking about it, the instigation to put on the Ring with the Ringwraith nearby must be an instigation by the Ring itself, since it is in contact with Frodo's mind, and the wraith's is not. However, I do get the understanding that the wraith has a pretty good feeling that the Ring is nearby, and has a pretty good idea even where it is, physically, and may be calling to the Ring to let it know that the wraith is near. However, the wraith does not imagine that anybody, let alone anybody as ignorant as it expects the Ringbearer to be, would be able to resist the urge, so when Frodo does not subsequently appear in the shadow world, the wraith concludes that it must be a false sensation.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Riel
Lindon
Nov 7 2007, 6:40pm
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How good is Frodo at resisting the increasing temptation? Does Tolkien believably present situations where Frodo is “prevented” from wearing it? How satisfying is it, dramatically, to have Frodo evade temptation by being “prevented” rather than overcoming it by his own will?
Frodo is excellent at resisting temptation, but without intervention he would succumb. I think the fortuitous incidents that prevent Frodo from wearing the Ring feed my theory that Higher Powers are at work. Even if you don't want to see it as Higher Powers, I don't think anyone can deny that luck or fortune plays an important role in Frodo's adventure, just as it did in Bilbo's. That is by design, though, and consistent throughout the tale, and therefore to me it doesn't feel like cheating. And despite Frodo's luck, he must also find courage and use his wits and virtue in order to accomplish his quest. Plus, of course, we can debate whether in the long run Frodo's fate can be considered lucky or tragic.
Is this effect a conscious choice on the part of the Ringwraith, to cause ring-lust in Frodo? How much will does a wraith have to exert to create this effect? How close does it have to be? Does the fact that it uses this now (rather than continuously ‘emitting’ the effect) mean that it knows Frodo is near? Why would it ride off when Frodo grasps the ring - partly succumbing to the urge?
No, I think it is a conscious choice on the part of the Ring, to compel Frodo to put it on and expose himself to the Ringwraith. But the Ring must work with Frodo's own desire to become invisible, for at this stage Frodo still thinks the Ring will protect him, rather than expose him. When Frodo saw the stranger speaking with the Gaffer he had no desire to hide. But when the stranger was following him, and trying to sniff him out, Frodo did have a desire to hide, and so the Ring had something to work with.
"Even the smallest person can change the course of the future."
~Galadriel
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Nov 7 2007, 8:18pm
Post #16 of 39
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On the wooded road, Frodo and company hide from a mysterious black-garbed rider. As it sniffs for them, Frodo is overcome by an urge to put on the Ring.
However, a short time ago he was near a Rider in Hobbiton who was enquiring about Frodo to the Gaffer. Frodo felt no such compulsion then.
Is this effect a conscious choice on the part of the Ringwraith, to cause ring-lust in Frodo? How much will does a wraith have to exert to create this effect? How close does it have to be? Does the fact that it uses this now (rather than continuously ‘emitting’ the effect) mean that it knows Frodo is near? Why would it ride off when Frodo grasps the ring - partly succumbing to the urge?
It's the Ring, not the Ringwraiths, that urges Frodo to put it on, I believe. As others have said it needs something to work on in the mind of the wearer, like wanting to hide. The Ring can probably call to the Ringwraith to alert it to its presence as long as the wraith is not occupied with something else I suppose. In Hobbiton the Ringwraith is enquiring the Gaffer and is not really intent on sensing the presence of the Ring. The ability of the Nazgűl to sense the Ring is not explained thoroughly, but it appears that the powers of the Nazgűl in general are much stronger by night than by day. This ought to explain why the Ringwraith following the hobbits seems to sense Frodo's presence more easily the second time, when it's getting dark, than the first time.
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Kdgard
Nevrast
Nov 7 2007, 11:31pm
Post #17 of 39
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Hi Elostirion74. You said, "The ability of the Nazgul to sense the Ring is not explained thoroughly, but it appears that the powers of the Nazgul in general are much stronger by night than by day."
I seem to recall reading in someone's post awhile back that there is some debate on whether or not the Nazgul are still wearing their rings of power. If they are, and personally I believe that they are, I think that would explain their ability to sense The Ring, since their nine rings have a link to The One. That link, however, doesn't seem to be as strong if The One Ring is not being worn by somebody. It's kind of like searching for a radio station. When The Ring is not being worn, it's difficult to find a signal and the Nazgul are probably sensing mostly static. If The Ring is being worn though, the signal becomes loud and clear and the Nazgul can lock onto it.
I like your idea that the Nazgul are stronger at night, and that would seem to make perfect sense. In The Silmarillion, when the Sun first appears in Middle-Earth, all of Morgoth's evil minions flee from it and take refuge in dark places. The Nazgul, like Orcs, can function in sunlight, but I don't think they're too happy about doing so. Later on, we'll see Gandalf attack the Nazgul with light on the Pelennor Fields, and they definitely didn't like that! It's just one of those eternal motiffs: Good vs. Evil. Light vs. Darkness. And the Nazgul, consumed by their rings and reduced to shadows, are very much creatures of darkness.
Kdgard
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 8 2007, 12:04am
Post #18 of 39
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Whew! At least the first topic wasn’t a complete disaster. Thirty-four responses is very respectable in the Reading Room (where the average since 2002 is twelve replies per thread).
What potential uses does Gandalf imagine Frodo may find for the Ring within the Shire? Relief from nuisances.
Why does Gandalf suddenly seem so desperate to convince Frodo not to wear it? Now he knows for sure that it is the One Ring. Twice in "A Long-expected Party", he cautioned Frodo:
‘I should not make use of it, if I were you. But keep it secret, and keep it safe! Now I am going to bed.’
- - - - -
‘But if you take my advice you will use it very seldom, or not at all. At least I beg you not to use it in any way that will cause talk or rouse suspicion. I say again: keep it safe, and keep it secret!’
Because as he later said, he had misgivings about the use of magic rings by mortals. And I'm not sure Frodo yet has the same difficulty giving up the Ring that Bilbo had. He hands it with reluctance to Gandalf, but doesn't argue or reach for a sword. (What he's unable to do is destroy it.) But I think repeated use, like long ownership, may encourage the bearer to grow accustomed to the Ring. And of course, there's the danger of being revealed to enemies.
Has Frodo shown any prior compulsion to put on the Ring? Has Frodo worn the Ring at all before? Later, Galadriel will tell him, "Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed." This leaves open the possibility that he'd worn it before, as Bilbo had, to fend off minor inconsistencies.
Is it too early to suggest that Frodo may take the Ring to Orodruin? How likely is Frodo to make the journey if he thinks this is an option? It's Frodo who suggests this, not Gandalf: "Bilbo went to find a treasure, there and back again; but I go to lose one, and not return, as far as I can see."
Is this effect a conscious choice on the part of the Ringwraith, to cause ring-lust in Frodo? Again, I think this is as much Frodo as the wraith or the Ring: when he hears someone talking to the Gaffer, he himself has no reason to put on the Ring: quite the opposite, as he even considers confronting the unknown stranger. But out on the road, the appearance of the dark sniffing horseman is a reason to hide.
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Nov 8 2007, 1:59am
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Agree about why it's important for Frodo not to use it
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Part of the reason (in addition to age) that Bilbo could not be the Ringbearer is because of the hold the Ring had acquired over him, through many years of relatively innocuous use.
Frodo starts afresh, with a clean slate. There's no indication that he ever used the Ring during his years at Bag-End and Gandalf wants to keep it that way. Although making their way to the Cracks of Doom sounds like a long shot, the biggest gap in Gandalf's plan is how to summon the will to destroy the thing once they get there. Isildur couldn't do it, and he was Mr. Look-at-me-I-saved-the-White-Tree. If Frodo struggles to summon the will to intentionally harm the Ring while still in the comfort of Bag-End, how is he going to do it on Mt. Doom and confronting the full will of Sauron?
The task is beyond the capability of any mortal or elf, so it's fortunate that Providence intervenes in the form of Gollum. However, as far as Gandalf can foresee, someone is going to have to summon the willpower to toss the thing in. Frodo is the best candidate for that role, and Gandalf needs to keep him free from any corruption as long as possible.
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Nov 8 2007, 9:52am
Post #20 of 39
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Hi, Kdgard. I agree that the Nazgűl would be more able to sense the exact presence of the Ring if someone is actually wearing it (as opposed to carrying it) as a result of the link between the One Ring and their own Rings of Power. I am not myself too sure whether Tolkien really had worked out the logic behind the Nazgűl's ability to sense the Ring at the time of writing, he seems to avoid explaining things in too much detail (which I approve of), preferring to give hints and general ideas. This of course leaves room for speculation on the part of the reader. We will be told later that the Nazgűl don't see the world of light, but they're able to feel the presence of the living as well as smelling their blood - creepy! Who knows if they weren't picking up on Frodo's scent as the smell of a living person..
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Owlyross
Nargothrond
Nov 8 2007, 12:59pm
Post #21 of 39
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that the Nazgul had lost their rings. While they were wearing their own rings, they were subjugated by Sauron, until they were wraithlike, at which point Sauron took their rings and all that was left of them were the evil wraith spirits. I can't even remember whether there is any evidence that backs this up, or it's something I worked out in my own head...
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 8 2007, 2:43pm
Post #22 of 39
(2194 views)
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Gandalf says otherwise in Rivendell.
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As Darkstone recently noted, Tolkien is inconsistent on the location of the Nazgűl rings.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 5-11 for "Three Is Company".
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Nov 8 2007, 6:16pm
Post #23 of 39
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Sorry, not much time for all the questions, but the question of the news Gandalf heard was one that interested me in the last round of discussions, and I think I found the definitive answer, here.
Son of Elizabeth in Frodo's tree
March, 2007
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Nov 8 2007, 6:36pm
Post #24 of 39
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Sorry, that link doesn't work for me:-( /
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As Darkstone recently noted, Tolkien is inconsistent on the location of the Nazgűl rings.
Son of Elizabeth in Frodo's tree
March, 2007
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 8 2007, 6:48pm
Post #25 of 39
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But there is some question as to when Gandalf heard that news.
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Although Gandalf tells Frodo that he must go because he has "heard something," Gandalf later tells the Council of Elrond that he left Bag End because of a "foreboding of some danger," and not because of news. Only after he rode to the border of the Shire did news reach him of the war in Osgiliath, and only after he met Radagast did he learn more. Based on that account, the "foreboding" came before the news. So I'm still not sure what Gandalf "heard" that prompted him to leave Bag End. Perhaps he heard something in his dreams.
(This post was edited by Curious on Nov 8 2007, 6:48pm)
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