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Saelind
Menegroth
Oct 30 2007, 1:30am
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Chapter 2 The Shadow of the Past I
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My apologies for the late start but maybe it gave some folks a chance to catch up.
Welcome to this week’s chapter discussion. This is a long chapter and I will do my best to cover it. I will be including one or two comments relating to the movies. I apologize if this offends anyone. I have no desire to start a movie versus book debate just relate the few passages that were used in the movies from this chapter.
The chapter opens with Frodo as Master of Bag End. He continues to celebrate his joint birthday with Bilbo. Frodo maintains that Bilbo is not dead but he doesn’t know where he is. The community thinks otherwise. This continues for the next 17 years.
When you initially read the story, did you think Frodo’s behavior was odd?
Frodo shows signs of “good preservation” as well. Another oddity.
As Frodo approaches 50, he becomes restless and starts having dreams. “He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands and strange vision of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.” More foreshadowing or just dreams conjured up by a mind soaked in Bilbo’s stories? Is Frodo having some sort of middle-aged crisis? If it is foreshadowing, is it too heavy-handed? Or, could Frodo’s impulses be coming from some other Power(s)?
The outside world starts to intrude on the Shire. Gandalf had not come to visit in several years. But the rumors of the Dark Lord and Mordor start to fly.
“That name the hobbits only knew in legends of the dark past, like a shadow in the background of their memories; but it was ominous and disquieting.”
What kind of stories/legends would the hobbits have about the “dark past”?
“But even the deafest and most stay-at-home began to hear queer tales; and those whose business took them to the borders saw strange things.”
I think these passages show the transition from a “Hobbit” sequel to the story we know as LOTR. Agree or disagree?
Sam and Ted Sandyman’s conversation at the tavern shows two sides of a debate. What’s the debate and what side are they arguing for? Who wins? What do you think Sam’s cousin, Hal, saw?
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Humbert
Lindon
Oct 30 2007, 2:26am
Post #2 of 19
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The Last (no, I mean: the First) Debate
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When you initially read the story, did you think Frodo’s behavior was odd?
Certainly not odd, by our standards - though I suppose it is considerably so if you're a hobbit!
The unlikely preservation, though, that's odd. Just like Bilbo. And Gandalf did say to be careful of that ring...
As Frodo approaches 50, he becomes restless and starts having dreams. “He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands and strange vision of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.” More foreshadowing or just dreams conjured up by a mind soaked in Bilbo’s stories? Is Frodo having some sort of middle-aged crisis? If it is foreshadowing, is it too heavy-handed? Or, could Frodo’s impulses be coming from some other Power(s)?
I love the way this kind of thing (and we discuss the like all the time) is vague enough to be literary foreshadowing, precognitive dreams sent by an otherworldly force, or simple dreams.
For myself, while I am sure the Professor intended it to be vague, but foreshadowing nonetheless, I tend to think of it mostly as Frodo's yearning. Not an actual foreglimpse, but a dream of his desires - to follow Bilbo into the wild.
A nice simple, but effective, way of gaining insight into Frodo's character at this point in his life.
What kind of stories/legends would the hobbits have about the “dark past”?
Not much more than we're given in the text, I expect. Hobbits aren't much for history - certainly not as it pertains to the wider world. I'm sure there are tales and legends (doubtless become bedtime stories for hobbit children) of trouble during the Wandering Times of the proto-hobbits. Certain names surviving in stories which no longer contain (if indeed they ever did) any truth or history, or any relevance to anything outside the direct experience of hobbits.
Not that other races are much better in this regard. Elven history almost strictly pertains to their own experience. Some of the great tales are of men, though only the ones whose fates were intricately tied up with elves. I'm sure if you went through the archives at Minas Tirith, or at the Lonely Mountain, you would find a similar situation.
Though hobbits do seem to be particularly insular in this regard, having little interest outside their borders at all.
Sam and Ted Sandyman’s conversation at the tavern shows two sides of a debate. What’s the debate and what side are they arguing for? Who wins? What do you think Sam’s cousin, Hal, saw?
One of my favorite gags in the whole book is when Ted argues against the existence of an "elm-like giant", when Sam points out that there are no elms on the North Moors, with:
"Then Hal can't have seen one."
And: 'There was some laughing and clapping: the audience seemed to think that Ted had scored a point.'
I've debated with people like this (and in company like this) when they make some asinine comment that they believe is an actual argument and resist all attempts to show them that they have just undermined their own argument.
As for what Halfast saw, well...
Wouldn't it be nice if it was an Entwife?
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Oct 30 2007, 2:41am
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The Sam & Ted debate passes the torch to a new generation
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“But even the deafest and most stay-at-home began to hear queer tales; and those whose business took them to the borders saw strange things.” I think these passages show the transition from a “Hobbit” sequel to the story we know as LOTR. Agree or disagree?
Agree, sort of. During this reading, I was struck by how deliberately Tolkien uses two tavern conversations near the beginning of Chapters 1 and 2 to set the tone for the rest of the chapters and lay the groundwork for the transition from whimsical Hobbit to the more serious LOTR. In Long Expected Party, the conversation is between Sam's father the Gaffer and Sandyman the Miller. In Shadow of the Past, the main participants are Sam and Ted Sandyman, the Miller's son. Sandyman and Gaffer are contempories of Bilbo, but Sam and Ted are of Frodo's generation, symbolically passing the torch to a new generation. They even have different hangouts, with the older generation favoring The Ivy Bush, while Sam and Ted tip glasses at The Green Dragon.
Sam and Ted Sandyman’s conversation at the tavern shows two sides of a debate. What’s the debate and what side are they arguing for?
In some ways, Sam and Ted's conversation is a continuation of their father's debate in the previous chapter, but there are some subtle differences. The Miller took a cynical view of life, regarded anything outside his narrow worldview with derision, and attributed self-serving motives to everyone from Drogo to Bilbo. The Gaffer, despite his limited range of experience, corrected the Miller on every point, and judged the Bagginses by their kindness rather than their perceived faults.
In the conversation at The Green Dragon, Ted Sandyman takes a cynical view of life just like his father, but when confronted with troubling events from the outside world, argues there is no need to be concerned by outsiders problems. Sam has his father's kind heart and limited knowledge of the outside world, but unlike his father, he already has a realization that the outside problems are going to affect the lives of ordinary hobbits.
Who wins?
If we polled the denizens of the The Green Dragon who listened, there would be a consensus that Ted won the jist of the debate (though I suspect Sam was probably better liked). Ted scored at least three one-liners that drew general laughter, and Sam came across as a hopeless dreamer.
But even at this early stage, there's more to Sam than meets the eye, as we see after Ted leaves: Sam sat silent and said no more. He had a good deal to think about. For one thing, there was a lot to do up in the Bag End garden ... But Sam had more on his mind than gardening.
Later on, in Chapter 5, we learn that Sam was already aware of many of Frodo's troubles and in contact with Merry and Pippen over how best to help Frodo. Sam could have shared a few more concrete facts and rescued himself from Ted Sandyman's verbal barbs, but he is nothing if not discrete when it comes to the affairs of his Master.
What do you think Sam’s cousin, Hal, saw?
A walking tree seems to imply an Ent or Ent-like creature such as a Huorn. We know that there are trees very much like the Huorns in the Old Forest on the eastern border of the Shire, so my best guess is a Huorn. I'll throw out a camaflouged Ranger as another possibility.
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Owlyross
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 10:34am
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The most important thing about this chapter is moving onto the main characters. The long expected party allowed Tolkien to get rid of Bilbo, to break the links with The Hobbit, and to get down to serious business. There are still moments where the childish tone of The Hobbit shows through, but on the whole, the tone is altogether more serious.
When you initially read the story, did you think Frodo’s behavior was odd?
More foreshadowing or just dreams conjured up by a mind soaked in Bilbo’s stories? Is Frodo having some sort of middle-aged crisis? If it is foreshadowing, is it too heavy-handed? Or, could Frodo’s impulses be coming from some other Power(s)?
Not at all. It would be natural to celebrate Bilbo's birthday, especially as he's celebrating his own at the same time. He was also brought up in a household where travelling, and seeing the mountains etc was the norm. His mind was opened by Bilbo, and now he's feeling the same wanderlust, I don't think there's anything odd in that. Obviously there is to other Hobbits though, who prefer life in the Shire, but Frodo is aware of the bigger world out there and wants to see it.
What kind of stories/legends would the hobbits have about the “dark past”?
Stories of Angmar, of Fornost and of the Witch King. The Hobbits fought against him so there would be tales of that. And deeper in history, the stories of Mirkwood, where the Hobbit race came from, and home of the Necromancer.
“But even the deafest and most stay-at-home began to hear queer tales; and those whose business took them to the borders saw strange things.”
I think these passages show the transition from a “Hobbit” sequel to the story we know as LOTR. Agree or disagree?
Agree to a certain extent, but outside the Shire was painted as dangerous and deadly in the Hobbit also. But yes, on the whole there is a definite change, a threat growing.
Sam and Ted Sandyman’s conversation at the tavern shows two sides of a debate. What’s the debate and what side are they arguing for? Who wins? What do you think Sam’s cousin, Hal, saw
The debate is between the old "sensible" stay at home Hobbits, and those who have more of a taste of the outside world. Sam is trying to convince the otehrs that Frodo, and by extension, Bilbo, are not cracked. As for what Hal saw, who knows? Could be an Ent, an Entwife, or could have been a troll. The point is not what he saw, but to reinforce that strange things are afoot, and the Shire can no longer isolate itself from the world at large, there's a big bad world out there and it's intruding.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 11:39am
Post #5 of 19
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When you initially read the story, did you think Frodo’s behavior was odd?
Only in the way that "old bachelor characters" are odd (hey, I was a teenager!). I noticed the line that said he carried on Bilbo's reputation for oddity.
Or, could Frodo’s impulses be coming from some other Power(s)?
I'm not sure I've ever looked at it that way before! Very interesting thought, that the dreams of distant mountains weren't just caused by Frodo's personal wanderlust influenced by tales told by Bilbo and the restlessness of adult life (when one realizes suddenly that perhaps a little too much time has gone by and if one is going to have adventures one better start pretty darn quickly!) but possibly could be an influence of the Ring. Or "other powers at work". Poor Frodo, caught in the web of fate already.
What kind of stories/legends would the hobbits have about the “dark past”?
"The goblins'll get ya ef you don't watch out!" as a poem read to me as a child used to put it. How did I--a modern American child of six or so, raised in middle-class America--understand that there were "scary things" that might "get" a child, if she didn't watch out? LIttle hints of things like Halloween costumes (never really explained) and poems and mom "touching wood" to ward off bad luck. I just sort of absorbed the little bits and pieces left of folklore that had been removed from it's foundations and was just left with bad connotations.
I imagine the hobbit tales were things of this nature.
What’s the debate and what side are they arguing for?
One of the examples of Tolkien's "pairs", used throughout the story. Ted and Sam, two sides of the same coin. Book-learning v. willful ignorance; outward-looking v. insular; going-to-have-adventures v. staying-home-and-being-adventured-upon.
What do you think Sam’s cousin, Hal, saw?
An Entwife! Or a lone Ent, hunting an Entwife?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 11:59am
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Good point about the isolation of the hobbits not being so peculiar after all!
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 12:21pm
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As Frodo approaches 50, he becomes restless and starts having dreams. “He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands and strange vision of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams.” More foreshadowing or just dreams conjured up by a mind soaked in Bilbo’s stories? Is Frodo having some sort of middle-aged crisis? If it is foreshadowing, is it too heavy-handed? Or, could Frodo’s impulses be coming from some other Power(s)?
Well, it could be his own wanderlust entering his dreams as well as the signs of a beginning middle-aged crisis. He lived a fairly settled life after all, while always getting news about the outside world. This must have created some tension.
“But even the deafest and most stay-at-home began to hear queer tales; and those whose business took them to the borders saw strange things.”
I think these passages show the transition from a “Hobbit” sequel to the story we know as LOTR. Agree or disagree?
As I was reading the chapter, I wasn't quite sure what to think. Obviously it's a bit different from the Hobbit, where the rest of the Shire isn't affected by Thorin & co. coming to visit. The language of LoTR is already quite different as well. But Tolkien is still fairly vague here, as if he doesn't quite know where exactly the story will be heading, and it's not until I get to hear about the history and nature of the Ring that I feel I have left the world of the Hobbit. But there can hardly be any doubt that this chapter is central both to later parts of the story as well as establishing how the Ring will be the prominent feature of LoTR.
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 2:20pm
Post #8 of 19
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Birthday parties and elm trees.
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When you initially read the story, did you think Frodo’s behavior was odd?
Not by my standards. By the rather narrow-minded standards of the Shire, I suppose it was, although I'm sure Bilbo would have wanted Frodo to continue to celebrate their joint birthday.
More foreshadowing or just dreams conjured up by a mind soaked in Bilbo’s stories? Is Frodo having some sort of middle-aged crisis? If it is foreshadowing, is it too heavy-handed? Or, could Frodo’s impulses be coming from some other Power(s)?
I agree with others that these dreams are Frodo's secret desires coming to the surface. His mind is telling him it's time to venture away from home.
What kind of stories/legends would the hobbits have about the “dark past”?
I think the stories and legends of the past would have been reduced to children's stories by that time. Spooky stories kids tell each other by the fireside, or "bogeyman" stories parents tell their children to frighten them into being good.
I think these passages show the transition from a “Hobbit” sequel to the story we know as LOTR. Agree or disagree?
I do agree. The story takes an important turn in this chapter. The previous chapter focused on food, drink and dancing hobbits until the very end. This is where the real story of the War of the Ring begins.
What’s the debate and what side are they arguing for? Who wins? What do you think Sam’s cousin, Hal, saw?
On the surface, the debate is about what, if anything, Hal saw on the North Moor. If we dig a little deeper, it's about the willingness to accept events outside of our own knowledge and experience. Logically, Sam's argument really goes something like this:
Hal saw an elm tree on the North Moor.
There is no elm tree on the North Moor.
This leaves three possibilites:
1. Hal is lying.
2. Hal is mistaken.
3. There was something on the North Moor that day that looked like an elm tree, but wasn't.
So:
1. Hal is honest, he probably wasn't lying.
2. He would know an elm tree if he saw one, he's probably not mistaken.
This leaves Option 3 as the most likely solution.
Sam's argument works fine for me, but it's not going to work for the hobbits in the tavern. First, tired from their day's work and mellowed by food and wine, they're not in the mood to do the mental work necessary to follow it through, and, second, because they don't want to believe that walking trees (or anything else outside their everyday experience) exist. It's too scary and provokes too much thought. If walking trees exist, dragons, goblins and other scary storybook creatures might exist as well, which means life would be much less safe and predictable. The listeners accept Sandyman's much less logical solution because it gets them off the hook. So,Ted won the argument simply because it's nearly impossible to win an intelligent argument in a bar.
In a way, the hobbits refusal to believe Sam's story reflects their refusal to believe that Bilbo is still alive: If something is not within the borders of their known world, and they can't see it, who knows if it exists?
I would love to believe that Halfast saw an Entwife, but I suspect some wild Huorn-like creature from the Old Forest is a more likely possibility.
I've heard your anguish, I've heard your hearts cry out
We are tired, we are weary, but we aren't worn out
Set down your chains, until only faith remains
Set down your chains--Jewel
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 31 2007, 2:57am
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that it's a camoflauged Ranger - even though that evokes images of Sir Rodney in the "Wizard of Id" comic!
Excellent point about the story being passed along to the next generation! We'll also find this happening later as the Fellowship gains Thranduil's son, Glóin's son, and the foster-son of Elrond.
"...there was a lot to do up in the Bag End garden": and not just with shears - I bet Sam knew all the good secret listening-areas!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 1 2007, 10:17pm
Post #10 of 19
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"Your Hal's always saying that he's seen things"
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No one disputes this claim by Ted, so maybe Hal has a habit of exaggerating?
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Join us Oct. 29-Nov. 4 for "The Shadow of the Past".
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Nov 1 2007, 11:22pm
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If that's true, maybe Hal does tend to stretch the truth a bit. And who knows what a person might see on the way home from the Green Dragon, after a few pints?
I hate to admit it, but Ted might actually have a point.
I've heard your anguish, I've heard your hearts cry out
We are tired, we are weary, but we aren't worn out
Set down your chains, until only faith remains
Set down your chains--Jewel
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 2 2007, 3:43am
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As Hammond and Scull have noted in their Reader's Companion to LotR, that's rather larger than Treebeard's stride, so Hal is at least exaggerating. And more than 25 years ago, Neil Isaacs suggested that the name "Halfast" is meant to be taken as a pun, further suggesting his reputation for unreliability.
On the other hand, I like the idea of Hal seeing an ent; squire's drabble last year was nice.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 2 2007, 3:54am
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"maybe he sees things that ain't there"
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The title of squire's drabble made me notice that the word "ain't" is used twice in reference to Hal's claim (my subject line quotes Ted; and Sam says, "there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors") which could be Tolkien punning, except that the word also appears close to the end of the chapter when Sam is caught by Gandalf: "There ain't no eaves at Bag End, and that’s a fact".
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 2 2007, 5:10am
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There was no "Shire" in "The Hobbit".
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This is a long chapter and I will do my best to cover it.
You're doing fine. Actually, it's only a little longer than the previous chapter, and well short of "The Council of Elrond".
I will be including one or two comments relating to the movies. I apologize if this offends anyone.
I doubt anyone has been offended, and I think it's perfectly appropriate, just as it would be to quote from other works that have a connection to Tolkien's LotR.
When you initially read the story, did you think Frodo's behavior was odd?
No, because we've seen Bilbo depart with three travelling companions and Gandalf's expectation of seeing him again. The comments here are meant to convey to us the hobbits' parochialism.
strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams
Is Frodo having some sort of middle-aged crisis? If it is foreshadowing, is it too heavy-handed? Or, could Frodo's impulses be coming from some other Power(s)?
As foreshadowing, it's not heavy-handed: mountains are a motif of hobbit imagination. In the previous chapter, Bilbo had already mentioned wanting to see "mountains" again, and later, on the Barrow-downs, from "memory and old tales", the travelling hobbits will fancy they glimpse "the high and distant mountains". As for where the vision comes from, at least one scholar has published these questions:
What is not clear is the nature of these dreams: is it just a normal dream, brought on by missing Bilbo (somnium)? Is it the Ring, trying to entice Frodo to leave the Shire so it can get back to Sauron (oraculum)? Or is it a higher power, trying to prepare Frodo for what lies ahead (visio)? Tolkien does not tell us. But what is clear is that these dreams are prescient, and they are the first indication that Frodo's dreams are moving beyond the ordinary.
That's from "Dream Visions in J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings", by Amy Amendt-Raduege, from Tolkien Studies III (2006). In the second Reading Room discussion of LotR, from September 2002, people speculated that Frodo was seeing Mount Doom, or Taniquetil, or remembering Bilbo's tales, or influenced by the Ring, or perhaps by Gandalf.
But even the deafest and most stay-at-home began to hear queer tales; and those whose business took them to the borders saw strange things
I think these passages show the transition from a "Hobbit" sequel to the story we know as LOTR.
Why do you think so? The previous chapter of LotR is not much like The Hobbit at all, where there is no "Shire" to speak of: Tolkien hadn't used that word yet, and The Hobbit features little social comedy among hobbits, of whom Bilbo is the only example. By this point in The Hobbit, Bilbo has already had the history lesson that Frodo has yet to receive, has even had a moment of terror as Frodo will shortly experience --both stirred by images of fire*-- and is on his way down the road.
*"Suddenly in the wood beyond The Water a flame leapt up --probably somebody lighting a wood-fire-- and he thought of plundering dragons settling on his quiet Hill and kindling it all to flames. He shuddered."
- - - - - - - - -
"Frodo gazed fixedly at the red embers on the hearth, until they filled all his vision, and he seemed to be looking down into profound wells of fire. He was thinking of the fabled Cracks of Doom and the terror of the Fiery Mountain."
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Nov 2 2007, 4:00pm
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As foreshadowing, it's not heavy-handed: mountains are a motif of hobbit imagination.
In addition to the Reading Room speculations to which you referred, and the questions you quoted, has anyone here ever suggested that the prominence of Mountains in the Hobbit imagination might represent a shared ancestral memory (in the Jungian "collective unconscious" sense) of their migration over the Misty Mountains from their original home in the Vales of the Anduin? This must have been an enormous ordeal for such a little people — the original Hobbit adventure (There, but not Back Again), the recovery from which might explain, to some extent, their losing the taste for adventure.
From a story-external perspective, Bilbo's attachment to mountains — "Then something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go and see the great mountains, and hear the pine-trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and wear a sword instead of a walking-stick." — would, of course, precede the development of the back-story of the migrations of his people, but even so, there's a defensible argument from the story-internal perspective in this, no? Perhaps Timothy O'Neill has made this point in The Individuated Hobbit. I will have to check (unless somebody beats me to it).
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 2 2007, 6:07pm
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Mountains are not romanticized by those who must cross them.
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I would say that Bilbo and Frodo's romanticizing of mountains (a sentiment by no means shared by most hobbits) is another anachronism, a reflection of the attitude of Victorian Era Englishmen, and in particular of Tolkien himself, who had a memorable vacation in the mountains when he was young.
Until the Industrial Revolution, and the invention of leisure and vacations, mountains were just a damned nuisance. There was no reason to associate them with pastoral scenery because you could find pastoral scenery anywhere, and not just in the mountains. You could also find vast stretches of relatively-flat, fertile wilderness in many lands. Now, in the 21st century, even the mountains are in danger of being overrun, and people are turning to deserts, arctic tundra, and antarctic ice for their romance.
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Nov 2 2007, 7:05pm
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We do have a tendency to romanticize adversities long overcome. It's a phenomenon well known in social psychology, and it also explains the fierce loyalty people show to fraternities, despite the horrific hazing they endured to get in. Once in, one cannot rationalize having endured all of that "for nothing"; nor can one quit half-way through, for then the hazing up to that point had been likewise endured "for nothing" (the often cited sunk cost fallacy) — and so, long afterwards, one tends to remember it with nostalgia rather than outrage.
Still, I don't doubt you are very largely right (from the story-external point of view) about mountains, pastoral scenery, and the relatively modern concept of vacation.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 3 2007, 1:09am
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What about Gollum's ancestors?
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In psychological terms, what does it mean that the Stoors crossed the mountains, then crossed back?
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Oct. 29-Nov. 4 for "The Shadow of the Past".
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