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Urambo Tauro
Ossiriand
Oct 30 2007, 2:15am
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The "Red Star" in the South
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It's the time of year when the Ringbearer and his companions are enjoying an extended stay in Rivendell before they set out on their Quest. Tolkien writes the following:
...autumn was waning fast; slowly the golden light faded to pale silver, and the lingering leaves fell from the naked trees. A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.
-TLotR - The Ring Goes South
What is this star?
Does Tolkien's description make it seem hostile to you?
Does it have anything to do with Sauron?
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Oct 30 2007, 3:59am
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I've always assumed it was the red star Aldebaran, which is also known as "The Eye of Taurus".
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Penthe
Mithlond
Oct 30 2007, 4:48am
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I don't know which star it is, since I have no idea about stars except maybe Venus. I have always read it as a foreshadowing of the red glow of Mount Doom, and Frodo's walking vision of the eye during the Mordor days. It's as if to remind us that Sauron's Eye is indeed everywhere.
Perhaps it is a counterpoint to Sam's white star in Mordor? Sam sees purity in the midst of danger and gried, whereas Frodo sees the malign red star in the midst of safety and joy at Rivendell. Hope versus despair and suchlike.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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Elven
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 7:39am
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Mars - it is very much red ... and it is the planet of War and famine ... I think it fits well with what Penthe ws saying about the other white Star (I think of Venus) the planet of Love and beauty.
and also like omen in the sky ... war and misfortune, agressive energy and attacks ...
The Road Goes Ever On and On ...
Happy 70th Birthday to The Hobbit!!
Tolkien was a Capricorn!
..*sing & sway* "All we are saying ..Is Give Pete A Chance" ...
"Your friends are with you Peter"
Let the Hobbit Happen!!!
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 11:14am
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Because I know nothing about astronomy, I can never tell if this star has anything to do with the red star Borgil that the hobbits see in the sky when they meet the Elves in the Shire. That star rose in the East. This one shines in the South.
If it's the fire from Mt. Doom that Frodo sees from Rivendell and mistakes for a star, that would be South-East. Yet even if the red "star" he sees from Rivendell isn't literally the fire from Mt. Doom, it does seem symbolic of it "burning like a watchful eye". Yes, it seems hostile, burning and glaring from the South!
Here's an interesting site about the astonomy of ME. I don't see anything (scanning quickly) about this particular star-sighting, though maybe I missed it in skimming so quickly.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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Curious
Gondolin
Oct 30 2007, 2:42pm
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if it was really a star, it was most likely Aldebaran. Mars apparently doesn't work at that time of year. On the other hand, only Frodo sees the star, so that does raise the question of whether he is having a vision of Sauron's Eye. He certainly has that vision on the Hill of Seeing. Tolkien cleverly leaves the answer ambiguous.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 30 2007, 2:57pm
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Mars can be seen in the south at any time of year. //
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However, it would never be very low in the south: it would follow roughly the same path as the sun and moon. Except, you know, Frodo was seeing it from a deep valley, so maybe it's not that low.
I think it is a vision of the Eye of Sauron.
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 4:16pm
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Twinkle, twinkle little red star ...
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Kristine Larsen (the owner of the page that someone else linked to) argues quite convincingly that Borgil is Aldebaran in "A Definitive Identification of Tolkien's 'Borgil': An Astronomical and Literary Approach" (Tolkien Studies 2). She rules out Mars as well as Betelgeuse in this very interesting paper. She's an astrophysicist herself, which gives her a pretty unique perspective on the topic. I think the star is meant to be Borgil (Aldebaran), but that figuratively, it does indeed foreshadow the Eye of Sauron.
Off the subject a bit, this image always reminded me of a sequence in Ursula K. Le Guin's third Earthsea book, The Farthest Shore. Sailing in the extreme south of Earthsea, Ged and Arren see a strange and ominous constellation of stars (not visible in the north) gradually rising from the horizon over a period of days or weeks. Does anyone remember that?
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 30 2007, 4:47pm
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Wouldn't Frodo recognize Borgil?
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Or was this passage from "Three Is Company" one of those Gondorian additions to the Red Book?
Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt. The Elves all burst into song. Suddenly under the trees a fire sprang up with a red light.
I think that Curious makes a strong point (that was first emphasized in the 2002 discussion) -- only Frodo is said to see this star, which suggests that it is more vision than reality. (However, Mordor is rather more southeast than south from Rivendell.)
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 5:08pm
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Curious makes it sound like Frodo alone saw the star, but I don't see any reason to come to that conclusion, just from the text. We're told that "Frodo could see it", but not that "only Frodo could", or that "nobody but Frodo could." Curious is making an inference, but one that might not be supported by the text alone. Am I missing some clue to that effect? And FWIW, I don't necessarily disagree with Curious; I'm just playing advocatus diaboli here.
Moving on to your point, Brigand. Again, I don't see anything in the text to preclude this star from being Borgil. It certainly could be, though it isn't identified as such here. For any number of reasons, the most obvious of which would be to increase the sense of foreboding that inheres in the image. For all we know — making a story-internal argument — Frodo originally wrote "Borgil," and a later scribe amended this to "low in the South one star shone red" to improve the story. Possible? And I don't see anything in the passage you quoted from "Three Is Company" as precluding this either. Do you? If so, please explain. And then, there's also another possibility: that things simply look and feel different when perceived from the shelter of Rivendell, causing Frodo not to recognize the star.
I guess I would say that it's probably not too important whether it's actually Borgil or not, but just arguing from the text, I don't see any compelling reason to say it couldn't be Borgil. Still, the most important sense of the image, I will agree with others, is as an omen of Sauron's Eye.
Turning to another line from the same passage, I just had another thought:
But autumn was waning fast; slowly the golden light faded to pale silver, and the lingering leaves fell from the naked trees.
Does this sound to anyone else like a subtle reference to the waning of Two Trees of Valinor? One was gold, the other silver, and their cycles were such that the light of one faded into the light of the other. The "lingering leaves fell" then could be a moving reminder of their destruction, at a time when everyone was consumed with rather dismal and brooding thoughts.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 5:36pm
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It's described as 'burning' and 'glaring'. That may suggest a steady light, which in turn would suggest a planet and not a star. If this is Mars, it would also explain why Frodo sees it in isolation, and not as part of a known constellation. Like the star of Earendil (Venus), Mars travels independently of the constellations. It is also one of the brightest objects in the night sky, often visible even when the moon is bright. And as a symbol of the Eye of Sauron, it fits nicely in opposition to the Star of Earendil, its sister planet and source of the light that is Frodo's greatest aid in his struggle against Sauron.
I haven't read the paper you mention, but even if the author convincingly identifies 'Borgil' as Aldebaran, that doesn't prove anything about this sighting, which isn't identified as Borgil at all - quite the reverse in fact, since Frodo seems not to recognize it.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 5:56pm
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Red star at night, Frodo take fright ...
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Well, the definite identification of Borgil, which N.E.B. quoted from "Three Is Company", also doesn't explicitly twinkle; it "glows" (though you may say the image of a "jewel of fire" could suggest twinkling, and I wouldn't argue). Let me just add, for the sake of completeness:
The idea that planets do not twinkle is a common astronomical misconception. It is true that planets are less likely to twinkle due to their much larger apparent size than a star, but under conditions of atmospheric turbulence, even planets will twinkle. The likelihood of twinkling is inversely proportional to the apparent angular diameter of the planet. Jupiter’s apparent size varies from 30.5-49.8 seconds of arc, Saturn from 14.7-20.5 seconds of arc, Mars from 3.5-25.1 seconds of arc, and Venus from 9.9-64.5 seconds of arc (Dijon, Dragesco and Néel 188). It is therefore distinctly possible for Mars to twinkle, under adverse seeing conditions when Mars is relatively distant from the Earth in its orbit and displaying a small angular diameter. — the aforementioned Larsen, pp.164-5. But setting that aside, I think you make some good points. I do like the idea of the Star of Eärendil set against the "Star of Sauron" (neither of them being actual stars at all). There's a very satisfying parity to it. As I said before, I was playing devil's advocate and not strenuously disagreeing with anybody. I just felt I had to remind people that what the text doesn't say explicitly isn't the same as what the text simply doesn't say at all.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 6:13pm
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I've been googling Mars a bit more
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and it strikes me now that another part of the description - the fact that the 'star' seems to grow brighter each night - also fits with Mars, which apparently has been doing so this month as well. Although your quote mentions that it is "distinctly possible for Mars to twinkle, under adverse seeing conditions when Mars is relatively distant from the Earth in its orbit", the fact that the 'star' is bright and getting ever brighter suggests it's actually quite close to the Earth and getting closer, as it is right now.
It's also the Hunter's Moon right now, coincidentally, and very beautiful it is too. It's interesting that Frodo knows this autumn moon by our traditional name. Although the constellations represent different mythical characters from those we know, the seasons as represented by the moons (Harvest Moon, Hunter's Moon) would have been the same in Frodo's time as in our own.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 6:21pm
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Here's another explanation from some astronomers. I underlined the part that "explains" that it couldn't be Mars; I'm not sure about the rest of the "explanation" that it might be Sirius:
STARS OF FANCY:
BY DAVID TURNER
"Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a Jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all of the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvager with his shining belt."
"Peering out, Frodo saw that the night was still clear. The Sickle was swinging bright above the shoulders of BreeñHill."
"The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the south one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter."
All of the lines quoted above are from J. R. R. Tolkien's famous fantasy epic The Lord of the Rings (Ballantine Books). This trilogy is set in the mid-northern latitudes of Middle-Earth at some unspecified distant epoch in the Earth's past. Although the constellation and star names seem strange, the descriptions should strike a familiar chord with all experienced star-gazers. The first passage is from a scene set late at night towards the end of September, and clearly refers to the Pleiades star cluster in Taurus, with red Aldeberan lying just below. As the mists close to the eastern horizon clear away, the bright stars of Orion come into view, skewed of course at Orion's rising. The "Sickle" referred to in the second passage, from a scene several nights later, is the Big Dipper, as Tolkien explains in a footnote. Frodo must have been looking towards the northern horizon at the time.
The last passage is from a scene that takes place at mid-evening a month or two later. The bright red star sounds intriguing, but cannot be a planet (say, Mars) since the zodiac crosses close to the zenith during winter evenings. A better candidate is the bright star Sirius, which lies to the southeast of Orion. Although Sirius, the brightest star in the sky, appears distinctly white or blue-white in our twentieth century sky, it is accepted from stellar evolutionary theory that this would not have been true some millions of years ago. At that time the faint white dwarf that orbits the much more luminous A-type main-sequence star in the system would have been a luminous red giant with a brightness greater than that of its companion. The combined light of the system would have been both redder and brighter (by a few magnitudes) than it appears today, making Sirius comparable in brightness to the planets Venus or Jupiter. Astronomers have been aware of this possibility for many years, and it seems clear that Tolkien was also aware of the idea when he wrote The Lord of the Rings.
By all accounts Tolkien must have had more than a passing interest in astronomy, although that was not his area of academic expertise. Appendix D of The Lord of the Rings is devoted to a discussion of the various calendar systems in use at the time of the epic, and demonstrates Tolkien's thorough understanding of the topic.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 6:39pm
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Well, if it's not real, it doesn't matter
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I mean, our arguments have no basis in anything and are all equally valid, since if it's not real any answer is as good as another. We can just say it's "based on Mars" or something else.
How do we know it's supposed to be "thousands" and not "millions" of years ago? Based on assumptions from something in the text, or a reference somewhere? As far as I know, Tolkien didn't specify--he said ME was our world in an imaginary time. But it wouldn't be the first (or last) time I missed something obvious.
And also, I'm not pretending false modesty when I say I can't judge the arguments for or against any particular heavenly body, since I have no knowledge about astronomy except that the Sun comes up every day (so far). I believe the astronomer Larsen I linked to earlier also published something about the stars in ME in one of the editions of "Tolkien Studies"...maybe someone here has a reference to that?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 30 2007, 6:51pm
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Thousands, not millions ... years, not stars ... :)
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How do we know it's supposed to be "thousands" and not "millions" of years ago? Based on assumptions from something in the text, or a reference somewhere? As far as I know, Tolkien didn't specify--he said ME was our world in an imaginary time. But it wouldn't be the first (or last) time I missed something obvious.
In Letter #211, Tolkien refers to the "gap in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days", which he footnotes with: "I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh."
Of course, Tolkien was known to change his mind. 
I believe the astronomer Larsen I linked to earlier also published something about the stars in ME in one of the editions of "Tolkien Studies"...maybe someone here has a reference to that?
Yes, I mentioned that article earlier in the thread. But ultimately, you're right: it doesn't really matter that much. Still, all playing of the devil's advocate aside, I like the Mars theory best, I think.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 30 2007, 6:52pm
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"only Frodo is said to see this star"
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Curious makes it sound like Frodo alone saw the star, but I don't see any reason to come to that conclusion, just from the text. We're told that "Frodo could see it", but not that "only Frodo could", or that "nobody but Frodo could."
My comments (copied to this subject line) tightened up Curious' formulation a little to satisfy your concern: if Tolkien meant that only Frodo saw the star, he was being even more ambiguous than Curious had indicated. (We might compare Frodo seeing and hearing Gollum in Moria and after, something that is presented at first as only his own observations, but which we eventually learn that Aragorn has known about almost from the start.) In the same chapter as the mysterious red star (which I don't think is explained in the published drafts, rather like the Nazgûl-like shadow that passes overhead in Eregion), Tolkien also never says that Frodo withdraws Sting from the beam, a la Sigmund and Arthur, something first noticed by Verlyn Flieger; the authors of a recent Mythlore article consider this an obvious allusion, but other readers aren't so sure.
By the way, here's the earlier discussion of this subject that I remembered.
Urambo: be sure to check back in when Wynnie discusses this chapter in February!
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 30 2007, 6:57pm
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Larsen's article on Borgil is from Tolkien Studies 2.
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And it is in fact accessible on her web page, to which you linked above. She has nothing to say about this red star, however.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 30 2007, 7:06pm
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The red star Betelgeuse, Larsen says, varies dramatically in its brightness, but I don't know over what period that occurs, i.e. if it could steadily brighten over the period of a few weeks.
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 7:20pm
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I just noticed you DID send that infor about the article in Tolkien Studies earlier today. I apologize. Can I plead lack of caffeine?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 30 2007, 7:36pm
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OK, I finally found our previous discussion of this chapter, as something was noodling around in my brain (something had better be going on in my brain, and noodling is better than NOTHING!!) and I don't have all of HOME.
In our previous chapter discussion, Dernwyn quoted HOME:
"in the earliest draft it is more foreboding: "Frodo could see it through his window deep in the sky, burning like a wrathful eye watching, and waiting for him to set out." (VI, 409)"
I think that's a pretty blatant piece of foreshadowing, and I think we are supposed to notice that it feels like a "watchful eye", in both texts!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Oct 30 2007, 8:15pm
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Oh, good, you found that! No, HoME was not much help there, and Tolkien seemed more concerned with the appearance of a Hunters' Moon than his cryptic add-on.
I've been searching through Letters to see if Tolkien had ever mentioned anything, and the most revealing statement I came across was from #211, "I do not 'know all the answers'. Much of my own book puzzles me...".
Hammond and Scull's Reader's Companion doesn't offer any insight other than: "Several readers have suggested that the one start that shone red is the planet Mars."
So, what is that red star? A typical Tolkien enigma, in other words, a basis for fun speculation and discussion, of course! 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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