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Ataahua
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Oct 26 2007, 5:12am
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LOTR chapter discussion: A Long Expected Party # 6: Tolkien the comedian
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Let's end the structured part of this discussion on a light note, and explore the humour of JRR Tolkien!
Lobelia Sackville-Baggins: "You're not a Baggins - you - you're a Brandybuck!"
Frodo Baggins: "Did you hear that Merry? It was an insult, if you like."
Merry Brandybuck: "It was a compliment, and so, of course, not true."
1. A deliciously-delivered double barb from Merry. What is your favourite piece of humour from this chapter?
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less that half of you half as well as you deserve." ...There was some scattered clapping, but most of them were trying to work it out and see if it came to a compliment.
2. OK, confess: Who scratched their heads the first time they read this? And who laughed out loud?
3. And have any of you used this phrase in real life?
Tolkien has some beautifully sharp phrasing: Calling 'tweens' the 'irresponsible twenties'; "... seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustable wealth"; 'eleventy-one', 'voluntary assistant postment', "ProudFEET!"
4. How does Tolkien's use of humour affect readers at the start of what will turn out to be a very dark story?
5. People retain information more easily if it is delivered humorously than if it is delivered straight. How much of LOTR's long-lasting popularity be attributed to Tolkien's use of humour?
We learn it is apparently well-known that legendary gold is anyone's for the finding, unless the search is interrupted (as happened in Bag End the day after the party).
6. What other 'unwritten laws' does Tolkien give to his readers? Do you use any of them in your offline world?
Bilbo's birthday speech: "I have called you all together for a Purpose!" ...There was almost silence, and one or two of the Tooks pricked up their ears.
...Even the Tooks (with a few exceptions) thought Bilbo's behaviour was absurd.
7. Why pick on the Tooks? What are we to take from what Tolkien has written?
8. The Hobbits all have cute or folksy names, but the Sackville-Baggins might by the only ones whose surname is hyphenated. Why?
9. The Springle-ring is described as "a pretty dance, but rather vigorous". What dance would be our real-life version of the Springle-ring?
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Oct 26 2007, 5:15am)
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 26 2007, 2:13pm
Post #2 of 32
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9. The Springle-ring is described as "a pretty dance, but rather vigorous". What dance would be our real-life version of the Springle-ring?
I always thought of the Virginia Reel, a dance I am embarrassed to admit I participated in as a youngster for an elementary school presentation. It's kind of like a British or Scottish square dance. And yes, I did grow up in Texas. :)
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Riel
Lindon
Oct 26 2007, 3:02pm
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awesome. and yes, i'm a Texan too. 
"Even the smallest person can change the course of the future."
~Galadriel
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 26 2007, 3:09pm
Post #4 of 32
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A fellow Texan? Say it ain't so!
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Whereabouts you from? Me, I call Dallas home, but I lived in Houston for many years, too, including in my "springle-ringing" days. (And BTW, talking of the springle-ring, it's surely no coincidence that ring is part of the name of the dance.)
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Oct 26 2007, 3:45pm
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I've never been to Texas myself, but I can think of at least two other 'sibs in that great state: Alassea Eruvande, and...someone else whose name I don't remember.
Does Virginia Reel have a grand right and left in it? Where you're in a circle (or square) with every other person facing the opposite direction and they weave in and out, kind of pulling each other along with alternating hands? I can't remember what folk dances that move is in, but it seems essential for a Springle-Ring.
Where's Frodo?
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 26 2007, 3:57pm
Post #6 of 32
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Does Virginia Reel have a grand right and left in it? Where you're in a circle (or square) with every other person facing the opposite direction and they weave in and out, kind of pulling each other along with alternating hands? I can't remember what folk dances that move is in, but it seems essential for a Springle-Ring.
To the best of my recollection — we're talking 25 years ago! — that sounds about right. Wait, here it is on YouTube ... Yep, looks like a Springle-ring to me!
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Oct 26 2007, 4:19pm
Post #8 of 32
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1. A deliciously-delivered double barb from Merry. What is your favourite piece of humour from this chapter?
I love Bilbo's humorous gifts to his relatives, especially Lobelia's spoons. It sums up Lobelia's character perfectly. Another favorite is the line about gardeners showing up after the party with wheelbarrows to remove guests that inadvertently remained behind.
2. OK, confess: Who scratched their heads the first time they read this? And who laughed out loud?
3. And have any of you used this phrase in real life?
I confess: I haven't figured it out yet, except that I'm pretty sure it doesn't come to a compliment. The first part's easy, and vaguely complimentary, but the second part is confusing. Is Bilbo's point that he likes more than half of the guests better than they deserve? Isn't that saying they don't deserve to be liked? And what about the group he likes less than they deserve? If they really deserved to be liked, wouldn't he like them? I wouldn't dare use this phrase in real life. If someone were to call me on it I have no idea how I'd argue for it!
4. How does Tolkien's use of humour affect readers at the start of what will turn out to be a very dark story?
I think the humor bonds with the characters. They make us laugh, so we don't want bad things to happen to them. This helps the reader, as well as certain hobbits, long for the carefree easy days in the Shire during the dark and dangerous chapters.
5. People retain information more easily if it is delivered humorously than if it is delivered straight. How much of LOTR's long-lasting popularity be attributed to Tolkien's use of humour?
A major reason people love LotR is because of hobbits, and one reason we love hobbits is because they make us laugh.
6. What other 'unwritten laws' does Tolkien give to his readers? Do you use any of them in your offline world?
I like Gildor's response to "Do not go to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both yes and no." Attempting to quote from memory: "You have not told us all of yourself, so how can we say better than you, and all courses may run ill." I find those words very true when it comes to giving advice.
7. Why pick on the Tooks? What are we to take from what Tolkien has written?
I don't think Tolkien's really picking on them, I think he's just reminding us that Tooks might have a bit more tolerance for bizarre behavior (such as Bilbo is exhibiting) than the average hobbit, and also might be more likely to pick up on the fact that something was amiss.
8. The Hobbits all have cute or folksy names, but the Sackville-Baggins might by the only ones whose surname is hyphenated. Why?
Because they're snobs, and for some reason hypenated names are associated with snobbery.
I've heard your anguish, I've heard your hearts cry out
We are tired, we are weary, but we aren't worn out
Set down your chains, until only faith remains
Set down your chains--Jewel
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Curious
Gondolin
Oct 26 2007, 4:46pm
Post #9 of 32
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Because they're snobs, and for some reason hypenated names are associated with snobbery.
English families in Tolkien's time hyphenated their surname so that everyone would know about an aristocratic maternal line. Thus if Bilbo had been similarly snobbish he might have called himself Bilbo Baggins-Took, because his mother came from a more prominent family than his father. Frodo might have called himself Frodo Baggins-Brandybuck for the same reason. (Note that the Sackville-Baggins presumably don't have any relationship to the Tooks or Brandybucks, or else they would be sure to flaunt it, and consider Baggins more prominent than Sackville.)
Modern women, on the other hand, have taken to hyphenating names or using two surnames simply because they are not as inclined to give up their maiden name as they used to be, especially if they have a prominent professional status under their maiden name. There's nothing snobbish about it.
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Oct 26 2007, 5:33pm
Post #10 of 32
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I've known several women who hyphenated their names because of the second reason you gave; they wanted to take their husband's name but also keep the name they were known by professionally.
The first reason-to advertise aristocratic maternal ancestors-didn't occur to me. That explains the connection with snobbery.
I've heard your anguish, I've heard your hearts cry out
We are tired, we are weary, but we aren't worn out
Set down your chains, until only faith remains
Set down your chains--Jewel
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Milady
Ossiriand
Oct 26 2007, 5:38pm
Post #11 of 32
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1. "Old Gaffer Gamgee stopped even pretending to work in his garden."
2. I laughed. But I did have to go and read it a second time to understand it.
3. I probably used 'eleventy-one' when I was little, but never any of the others.
4. Well, if the story started out all dark and depressing, not many people would keep reading. As it goes now, the humor helps keep people interested as the story gradually eases into its dark nature.
5. I don't know, exactly. The later parts of the story don't really have a lot of humor, or at least not as much as this chapter, and yet most of the hype is about the main story. This first chapter isn't really one of the more famous ones, or at least not that I've heard.
6. He states several times that the Shire is only allowed to see Gandalf's tricks and fireworks as a rule, but I'm not too sure if that counts.
7. Tolkien here makes a reasonable assumption that if you're reading this, you've read The Hobbit. There we learn from Bilbo that the Tooks are rather more adventurous that most hobbits, so they would probably regard Bilbo's highly unusual lifestyle and disappearance as a rather good adventure. They might be excited to learn that Bilbo has some Purpose and would smell another adventure in the wind.
8. Who knows? All the hobbits are pictured as well-meaning, rustic, enjoyable people, but the S.-B.s are presented as rather unpleasant people. They would have a different name and style than the rest of the Shire.
9. Possibly a tango?
Middle-Earth stands on the brink of destruction.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Oct 26 2007, 5:56pm
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I've always thought of the Springle Ring as a Morris dance
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which is often done with bells.
But I can see the Virginia Reel at a hobbit party. Yep, I did that in grade school too, here in Colorado.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
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"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape." --Terry Pratchett
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Oct 26 2007, 6:00pm
Post #13 of 32
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When my daughter graduated from high school
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the boy giving the valedictory address started out, "I don't know half of you half as well as I would like" etc. Even from high up in the bleachers I saw my daughter's fist go up in the air with a silent "yes!"
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape." --Terry Pratchett
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Curious
Gondolin
Oct 26 2007, 7:11pm
Post #14 of 32
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Tolkien was snobbish himself, I judge.
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He was very proud, it seems, of his own mother's family, on which the Tooks were modeled. And although Bilbo and Frodo do not flaunt their connections to the Tooks and Brandybucks, Tolkien makes sure they have such connections, and that their close friends Merry and Pippin are the heirs in those families, and that even Sam has a hidden Fallowhide strain in his family, as shown by Sam's golden-haired sister Marigold. So I'm not sure if Tolkien is making fun of the Sackville-Baggins' snobbishness, of which he might have approved if they were indeed Tooks or Brandybucks, or of their pretensions and ambition.
American readers go on and on about whether Tolkien was a racist, but English readers may be just as concerned about whether he was a classist. Most Americans see classism based on family trees (as opposed to wealth) as kind of quaint and cute, because it just isn't much of a factor in the U.S. But in Tolkien's time it may have hit closer to home than racism, because Tolkien's part of England, like the Shire, had few immigrants, so discrimination was more likely to be based on class. And that may be why the hobbits were so concerned about genealogy.
(This post was edited by Curious on Oct 26 2007, 7:14pm)
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Ataahua
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Oct 26 2007, 7:38pm
Post #15 of 32
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Galadriel's another Texan (the TORNado, not the
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Lothlorien elf). Her nick on OldTorn was GalTX.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Ataahua
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Oct 26 2007, 7:46pm
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known that either. What a fascinating insight into what I thought was a relatively modern phenomenon.
It looks to me like Tolkien was making a beautiful little dig at the class society, regardless of whether he approved of it or not (one can gently laugh at something while still appreciating it). I wonder if Tolkien ever laughed while he wrote?
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Ataahua
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Oct 26 2007, 7:46pm
Post #17 of 32
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Lily Fairbairn
Gondolin
Oct 26 2007, 8:01pm
Post #18 of 32
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I'm from Texas. So is Darkstone.
But please don't hold it against us! 
* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!"
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 26 2007, 8:03pm
Post #19 of 32
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Also Ugly Troll, of course. Reera the Red, too. //
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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Oct. 22-28 for "A Long-expected Party".
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artaheri_elv
Lindon
Oct 26 2007, 9:07pm
Post #20 of 32
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1. A deliciously-delivered double barb from Merry. What is your favourite piece of humour from this chapter?
I always find the hobbits relishing in gossip the funniest part. you know, when Gaffer tells the story of how Frodo's parents died, and reproaches Sandyman for his words. maybe not the most appropriate part to be laughed at, but it always brings a smile to my face.
2. OK, confess: Who scratched their heads the first time they read this? And who laughed out loud?
I laughed. then scratched. am still scratching 
4. How does Tolkien's use of humour affect readers at the start of what will turn out to be a very dark story?
somehow, I associate laughter with hope. if you can laugh, then there's always hope left. with all the dark hints and foreboding in this chapter, laughter helps to ease the tension a bit, it gives hope that no matter how dark and troublesome things might get in the future, in the end, there will be light.
5. People retain information more easily if it is delivered humorously than if it is delivered straight. How much of LOTR's long-lasting popularity be attributed to Tolkien's use of humour?
very much, I think. all the humor in the books makes even the saddest parts bearable.
6. What other 'unwritten laws' does Tolkien give to his readers? Do you use any of them in your offline world?
"Don't be hasty..." well, not really. but I try...
7. Why pick on the Tooks? What are we to take from what Tolkien has written?
I guess he wants to emphasize that Tooks are different from other hobbits, that they're more tolerant towards "strangenesses" or something like that. and also, he might want more attention on the Tooks and their traits as one of them is going to become a very important participant in the story.
8. The Hobbits all have cute or folksy names, but the Sackville-Baggins might by the only ones whose surname is hyphenated. Why?
I'd probably say because they're snobbish and stuck up. and probably jealous, because Bagginses are probably a more prominent family. besides, Bilbo's also rich, which makes Lobelia doubly jealous (the spoons?).
9. The Springle-ring is described as "a pretty dance, but rather vigorous". What dance would be our real-life version of the Springle-ring?
some lithuanian folk dance comes to mind, though I can't remember it well. probably a lot of countries have folk dances that could be associated with it.
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Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Oct 26 2007, 9:30pm
Post #21 of 32
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I'm in Houston.
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Oct 27 2007, 5:51am
Post #22 of 32
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The problem is, Virginia Reel is a line dance (or a contradanse). I screened a bunch of square dances on You Tube, since they're done in a ring formation. They were nice, but tended to feature senior citizens in short frilly skirts -- not that there's anything wrong with that! Then I thought to search for English country dancing, which is more appropriate to the subject. Anyway, here's a cool one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEGUcdqN0tE
Where's Frodo?
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 27 2007, 12:37pm
Post #23 of 32
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nice! can anyone find a "flip-flap"?
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In H&S's LOTR Companion Guide, it says "Tolkien notes that springle-ring is 'an invention'...In the second draft version of Book 1, Chapter 1 the dance is called 'the flip-flap' (a step-dance of the nineteenth century)."
I've done some useless Google searching of various terms, including any combination of "step dance hand bells nineteenth century", including and excluding "flip flap" and haven't come up with anything!!
I really thought step-dancing is Celtic in origin, but perhaps that's ethno-centric of me.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Nothing that is worth doing can be achieved in our lifetime; therefore we must be saved by hope. Nothing which is true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history; therefore we must be saved by faith. Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we must be saved by love."
~~~Reinhold Niebuhr
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 27 2007, 6:00pm
Post #24 of 32
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Otho's "rather absurd ambition"...
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was "to achieve the rare distinction of being 'head' of two families (he would probably then have called himself Baggins-Sackville-Baggins)..." For more fun comments like this, see Letter #214.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Oct. 22-28 for "A Long-expected Party".
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Oct 28 2007, 1:35am
Post #25 of 32
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What is your favourite piece of humour from this chapter?
No favorites, I love them all! How about the description of the hobbits leaving the Party: "Gardeners came by arrangement, and removed in wheelbarrows those that had inadvertently remained behind." Bilbo knew there'd be some so overcome and overstuffed, that they'd have to be literally hauled away!
How does Tolkien's use of humour affect readers at the start of what will turn out to be a very dark story?
This looks like it's going to be a fun story. Let's read some more!
People retain information more easily if it is delivered humorously than if it is delivered straight. How much of LOTR's long-lasting popularity be attributed to Tolkien's use of humour?
There's a lot of subtle humor throughout the book, and that gives it character, and heart. Contrast with the humorless CoH! It's little bits, like Aragorn teasing Merry about wanting to smoke after he awakens in the Houses of Healing, that give the characters humanity, and endears them to you.
"...Even the Tooks (with a few exceptions) thought Bilbo's behaviour was absurd. " Why pick on the Tooks? What are we to take from what Tolkien has written?
Tolkien is not "picking on" the Tooks, rather, he's emphasizing that despite that line's reputation for doing "outrageous" things (such as have adventures), Bilbo's disappearance was too much even for most of them.
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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