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Stubaan
Lindon
Nov 17 2011, 9:51pm
Post #1 of 28
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Does it rain in Mordor?
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Mae govannen. 'Tis good to be back!
I am, among some other things, a hydrologist. Consequently, when I read about Middle-Earth, and particularly when I peruse the maps, I find myself musing about the hydrology (and secretly about writing a book about said musings).
Looking at the map of Mordor it is pretty clear that the sea of Núrnen is fed by a few rivers coming out of the surrounding mountains. I see that the Encyclopedia of Arda refers to "the more fertile southern plain of Nurn" as compared with the "barren uplands of Gorgoroth." The Plateau of Gorgoroth implies a higher elevation than the Plain of Nurn, and perhaps this explains the parched imagery of the Mordor we spend more time in during LOTR, but it does strike me as strange that absolutely no tributaries are mapped in Gorgoroth.
Does anyone recall any mention of climate, and particularly rainfall, in Mordor? The shadow over Mordor appears to be an enormous cloud of some sort... but is it cloud, or cloud of volcanic smoke? And if cloud, yet without rain... does this imply some sort of weather control by Sauron? Boromir alludes to this power at some point, though I forget when, but I see no explicit treatment of the matter (no surprise there!). And come to think of it, what source of water exists at all for sustaining the bajillions of orcs massed within Mordor?
Always more questions than answers in this game... :-)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Nov 18 2011, 12:07am
Post #2 of 28
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Horrible, miserable, nasty, wet dripping rain with more than a touch of wind, the type that really gets under your skin. On particularlly nasty occasions it can hail and hail for nearly an hour with big hailstones, some of which have a little red-eye on them.
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Nov 18 2011, 8:41am
Post #3 of 28
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- In reply to: "...does this imply some sort of weather control by Sauron?"
Nope. At least, I don't think so. As Bombadil says, 'I am no weather master, nor is anything that goes on two legs'. (FR; Fog on the Barrow-downs: paraphrase from memory).
(This post was edited by geordie on Nov 18 2011, 8:42am)
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
Nov 18 2011, 9:28am
Post #4 of 28
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when Gimli speaks of Caradhas and the very bad weather on the Redhorn Pass, Gandalf says "his arm has grown long." Also the Witch King is responsible for the horrible (extended) frost and evil winds in the Bay of Forochel that killed Arvedui. Bombadil is no weather master, but he's never said to control the winds and frosts either- plus does he mean donkeys, ponies and horses control the weather then? ;)
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Michael Martinez
Lindon
Nov 18 2011, 9:42am
Post #5 of 28
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From "The Land of Shadow" in THE RETURN OF THE KING:
The light grew no stronger, for Orodruin was still belching forth a great fume that,
beaten upwards by the opposing airs, mounted higher and higher, until it reached a region
above the wind and spread in an immeasurable roof, whose central pillar rose out of the
shadows beyond their view. They had trudged for more than an hour when they heard a
sound that brought them to a halt. Unbelievable, but unmistakable. Water trickling. Out
of a gully on the left, so sharp and narrow that it looked as if the black cliff had been
cloven by some huge axe, water came dripping down: the last remains, maybe, of some
sweet rain gathered from sunlit seas, but ill-fated to fall at last upon the walls of the Black
Land and wander fruitless down into the dust. Here it came out of the rock in a little
falling streamlet, and flowed across the path, and turning south ran away swiftly to be
lost among the dead stones.
From Chapter 3, "Mount Doom":
A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements,
tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great
courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and
adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted,
crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until
they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming
down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble, rising
to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, the plain heaved and cracked, and
Orodruin reeled. Fire belched from its riven summit. The skies burst into thunder seared
with lightning. Down like lashing whips fell a torrent of black rain. And into the heart of
the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgűl
came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled,
withered, and went out.
Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion, and Understanding Middle-earth.
http://www.michael-martinez.com/
Middle-earth.Xenite.Org
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 18 2011, 12:03pm
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Yes, but not enough to have any impact on the aridity of the central plain
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I found the same question a while ago during an earlier discussion. As Michael Martinez notes below, Tolkien does admit that rain falls in Mordor, but only under the remarkable circumstances of a Mt. Doom eruption, or on the perimeter mountainsides. The only example given of the latter case, the Morgai, is a landscape that is "dying but not yet dead", as he puts it, to explain the presence of stunted and thorny desert vegetation where Sam and Frodo find the open watercourse.
The implication is that the central plain of Gorgoroth is truly dead: completely rainless, without even a single wet season, like only the most arid landscapes of our earth. As my note wondered about such a climate, why then are the skies always grey? Really dry deserts are characterized by clear skies and relentless sunlight. A constantly overcast landscape such as Gorgoroth would get at least some moisture. It's a puzzle that doesn't need solving, since Tolkien's actual point is that Mordor is physically horrible in every way possible at once - a nightmare landscape come true.
squire online:
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 18 2011, 12:21pm
Post #7 of 28
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(in the second passage you quote) probably isn't water, though. The ash clouds generated by an active volcano produce lightning storms and rains of ash. In fact, when that very same scene is seen again through Frodo and Sam's eyes, we are specifically told what the rain is:
"Behind them the Mountain was convulsed. Great rents opened in its side. Slow rivers of fire came down the long slopes towards them. Soon they would be engulfed. A rain of hot ash was falling." (The Field of Cormallen)
Tolkien was quite geologically realistic here, I'd say - although the odds of anyone surviving it are pretty slim! 
As for your first quote, about the rain falling "upon the walls of the Black Land", again I think Tolkien was describing a realistic geological situation - the Black Land being in a "rain shadow", cast by the mountains that are its "walls". The mountains take whatever rain is in the air, leaving a desert on the other side.
Of course, this realistic geological explanation is overlaid with the mythic tale, in which Sauron may (or may not  ) be responsible for the desert-like conditions of his land. Either way, I think it's maybe fair to say that rain isn't completely absent from any desert, magically-intended or not. It's just very rare.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 18 2011, 1:07pm
Post #8 of 28
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I think the earlier instance of "black rain", like "lashing whips", at the moment the volcano first erupts, is meant to be the kind of fat heavy liquid rain drops one often encounters in conjunction with the outbreak of thunder and lightning. I have always thought it falls at this point because of a sudden drop in air pressure that accompanies the first explosive eruption. Tolkien also warns us it is coming: the day before, we see through Sam's eyes that "there seemed to be a storm coming up, and away to the south-east there was a shimmer of lightnings under the black skies."
It is something like an hour later when Frodo and Sam reach the foot of the mountain and are tormented by a "rain of hot ash", which is obviously fallout from the eruption. The two rains don't seem to be the same phenomenon to me. If the first "black rain" was not watery, but ash particles, I think Tolkien would have said so.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 18 2011, 1:17pm
Post #9 of 28
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that the chief argument you're making, both here and in the post from the old boards that you linked to, is that Mordor weather is deliberately unrealistic, and doesn't need to conform to real-world weather at all. By coincidence, I was arguing the opposite at the same time (and didn't see your post until after I'd submitted mine).
You make a good point about the unlikely combination of overcast skies and desert conditions, but I'm not convinced that this type of meteorology doesn't exist on our earth. I'm struggling to remember my high school physical geography, but I seem to recall that "rain-shadow" deserts can be like this - the air of the prevailing winds sheds moisture as it rises over a mountain barrier, then carries on over the plain behind, not shedding any further moisture (and in fact, absorbing any moisture there is in the plain) until it hits the next barrier. And I remember reading descriptions of people stranded in deserts cursing the clouds that pass overhead without ever dropping their load of rain.
But I could be wrong, It's been a long time since those high-school geography lessons...
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 18 2011, 1:27pm
Post #10 of 28
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The "black rain" looks like "lashing whips", but Sam isn't out in it - he sees it from the shelter of the Sammath Naur. It may be that liquid rain falls at this point in a volcanic eruption, for the meteorological reasons you mention, and I can easily imagine that it would be black, since it would condense around ash particles in the air. But Sam is in no position at this point to say what the rain is made of, and it's his viewpoint that we are given.
Either way, I guess this doesn't really tell us anything about the normal conditions of Mordor - from the mythic point of view, this happens after Sauron's influence has ended, and from the meteorological point of view it's an extreme condition that causes rain to fall that perhaps would normally stay unshed.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Felagund
Mithlond
Nov 18 2011, 2:12pm
Post #11 of 28
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the impact of the supernatural on landscapes
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The lack of rain in Mordor and the 'artificial' deadness of the Gorgoroth plateau, also covered by squire and FarFromHome, got me thinking about Morgoth's impact on Ard-galen during the Dagor Bragollach. Through unleashing rivers of flames and poisonous fumes, Morgoth turned the grassy plains of Ard-galen into a permanent desert overnight - the Anfauglith ('Gasping Dust'). For Tolkien, why this plain should remain a desert for the next century probably had less to do with the 'real' meteorological conditions prevailing north of Beleriand and and more to do with the triumph of Morgoth's will over this particular bit of Arda.
There are various other scenes in the legendarium, usually connected with death / burials / tragedy, which leave a permanent mark on the landscape - inexplicable in any other terms than the supernatural. For example:
- the Death Down, said to have been the mass grave for the orcs slain at the Battle of Helm's Deep - thereafter no grass would grow there
- Haudh-en-Nirnaeth, where the Eldar and Edain dead were buried after the Nírnaeth Arnoediad - thereafter the only part of the Anfauglith where grass would grow
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 18 2011, 2:42pm
Post #12 of 28
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- the Death Down, said to have been the mass grave for the orcs slain at the Battle of Helm's Deep - thereafter no grass would grow there
- Haudh-en-Nirnaeth, where the Eldar and Edain dead were buried after the Nírnaeth Arnoediad - thereafter the only part of the Anfauglith where grass would grow As I recall, he said that burning carcasses poisons the land where it's done, while the natural decay of buried bodies fertilizes the earth. It's rarely either/or with Tolkien, I find - the natural and the supernatural are much more in accord than one might think! Of course, the stories present these "wonders" as supernatural, but there's often a natural explanation underlying them. The effects may be exaggerated, as you suggest for Ard-galen, but they're rarely at odds with nature, I find - it seems to me that Tolkien took great care to keep his fantasy grounded in the real world.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 18 2011, 4:01pm
Post #13 of 28
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How many legs does Sauron have?
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
an age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
an age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
no man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
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Michael Martinez
Lindon
Nov 18 2011, 4:51pm
Post #14 of 28
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There is too little information
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The way I read the original question, I was only looking for references to weather (involving rain) while Frodo and Sam were in Mordor. That was just too brief a time for anyone to be able to say that it never rained in Mordor (or that it might).
The wind that blows away Sauron's cloud is able to pass over the mountains but I have always assumed that was a Manwe-sent wind, and therefore may not count as normal weather.
In New Mexico Albuquerque sits on the eastern side of a small group of mountains. The lands around Albuquerque are very dry but they do occasionally receive rain. If you drive west around the mountains, however, you come into a national forest.
The only other reference to weather in or near Mordor of which I am aware is a statement by Boromir which does not have to imply that it rains IN Mordor:
'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,' said Boromir. "They say in my land
that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of
Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.'
I would guess it's reasonable to assume that Tolkien did not envision much rainfall IN Mordor but that it could still have received SOME rain, while depending mostly on the mountain streams for the majority of its water.
Author of Visualizing Middle-earth, Parma Endorion, and Understanding Middle-earth.
http://www.michael-martinez.com/
Middle-earth.Xenite.Org
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Nov 18 2011, 5:46pm
Post #15 of 28
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What about the cisterns in Gorgoroth?
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Sam & Frodo do find a little water as they travel an orc highway and come to cisterns of foul water that Sauron maintained for his soldiers on the march. That water could come from rain, or it could come from deep wells. It could come from wells if the water table was supplied by rains in the mountains that worked their way down to the plain. It's amazing that even in the Sahara, if you dig deep enough, you do find water. It gets there somehow from very far away.
I have trouble imagining that with all the orc camps in Gorgoroth, all of their water was brought in by wagons from Nurnen, or poached from the Anduin. So aside from wells, it seems there could be occasional rains that supplied the orcs, just not enough to make the land less horrid.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 18 2011, 6:02pm
Post #16 of 28
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There are similar cisterns in the deserts of Saudi Arabia. It's just that the water of the aquifers they tap into is thousands of years old (from rainy seasons during the Pleistocene and Pliocene eras so they're not renewable), and once they are depleted they're gone.
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
an age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
an age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
no man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Nov 18 2011, 6:47pm
Post #17 of 28
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Yes, in many respects it's consistent with the "real world" as Tolkien perceived it. But he was not a hydrologist, nor, for that matter, a geologist nor an economist (nor quite a number of other things), and at various times experts in these disciplines have complained that Middle Earth is inconsistent with the more detailed reality that they understand.
It's a tribute to the realism of Middle Earth that we are tempted to try to make it consistent in technical spheres beyond those that were actually within Tolkien's grasp.
Join us in the Reading Room as we discuss the LotR Appendices! The real stories behind the Numenorians, Rohirrim, Elves, and Dwarves!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Nov 18 2011, 6:48pm)
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Nov 18 2011, 6:48pm
Post #18 of 28
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That Norse verse in your signature is certainly cheerful. 
Have you (or anyone else) read The Norse Code by Greg Van Eekhout? Besides being funny and entertaining, it seems pretty well-researched and gave me a good overview of Norse mythology, aside from how he adapted it for his novel set in the modern day: the climax of the Ragnarok takes place in a strip mall parking lot in California. (While it is a funny book, I wouldn't call it silly, just in case the strip mall makes it sound that way.)
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 18 2011, 8:46pm
Post #19 of 28
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Not only Sauron, but at times Saruman, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel all seem to control the weather at least in a limited way. My take on it is that while some of the two-legged Great and Wise may play at controlling the weather, they are all trumped by the true Weather Master, Manwe. And in Gandalf's case, he may be doing Manwe's will, for Manwe is his master.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 18 2011, 8:50pm
Post #20 of 28
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that normal winds are not Manwe-sent?
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 18 2011, 9:03pm
Post #21 of 28
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"...in Gandalf's case, he may be doing Manwe's will, for Manwe is his master."
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Do you mean that Gandalf is consciously "working for" Manwe, fulfilling the Vala's plan, in a way that none of the other Wise ones do? That makes Gandalf effectively a puppet. I never get that feeling with Gandalf - he regards himself as a being with a mission to be sure, but as far as specific actions and choices are concerned he seems to see himself as riding Fate with some foreknowledge and understanding rather than changing or even influencing it.
I also think that Gandalf does not control the weather Manwe-style, even in the incidents at Rivendell and Edoras, so much as he controls people's perceptions of what the weather is doing and how it is making them feel. That seems more in line with his original nature as one of the Maiar of Lorien the Dreamer.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 18 2011, 9:07pm
Post #22 of 28
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...by it's similarity to movie-Aragorn's speech before the Morannon.
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
an age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
an age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
no man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 18 2011, 9:32pm
Post #23 of 28
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I don't think Gandalf is a puppet, but he surely is working as a steward for the Higher Powers in Middle-earth. "'For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'" That doesn't mean he knows everything that will happen -- although when he first returns as Gandalf the White he seems to have knowledge that comes from a Higher Source, while at the same time he has forgotten much of what he learned in Middle-earth, like the name "Gandalf."
Whether he temporarily controls the weather or simply makes it look that way is unclear.
(This post was edited by Curious on Nov 18 2011, 9:34pm)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 18 2011, 10:17pm
Post #24 of 28
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I guess the "realism" tends to be on the hand-waving, common-knowledge level rather than the expert level. Still, I've been surprised a number of times to learn that there even is a "realistic" explanation for something that I'd assumed to be purely magical. The effect Felagund mentioned, of the barren earth where the orcs were burned, and the fertile earth where heroes were buried, is a good example of that. It had never occurred to me that this magical effect could be simply caused by the different ways of treating the bodies. (Darkstone's explanation was actually about the the burning of the fell beast and the burial of Snowmane on the Pelennor, in this post. Obviously Tolkien repeated this theme more than once. It's a clever effect really - the evil creatures are burned, because that's all they deserve. And the resulting barren earth is proof of their evil nature!)
Sometimes, though, Tolkien's assumptions about the physical world have since been proved wrong - one example I recall is the idea that stars can be seen in the daytime when looking up from a deep place. It was a common belief at one time, but is now considered to be just an old wives' tale.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
Nov 19 2011, 12:32am
Post #25 of 28
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there is likely to be a supply line from Nurnen, since Sauron had plenty of slaves and desert-wise Haradrim on his employ. Sam and Frodo never get to see the actual supply train as its out of their path. There are 'great slave-worked fields' in Nurnen, so irrigation techniques are likely to be used, maybe even pipes or canals.
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