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Nix of Mirkwood
Nevrast
Dec 8 2009, 9:51am
Post #1 of 7
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Chapter XXI - "Of Túrin Turambar" Part 2
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Greetings all!
Alright, let’s really get started on part one of Túrin Turambar.
Túrin is well received in Doriath by the King and lives there under his protection. But eventually, messengers from Dor-lómin stop arriving to bring news of his mother and sister, and his heart grows heavy. At about seventeen years of age, he goes to battle on the outskirts of Doriath for three years with his companion Beleg Strongbow. At his return, he finds that he has made himself an enemy. As is to be expected, he has a rival at Court. Saeros, a counselor of the King’s, is jealous of the honor Túrin receives in Doriath and aims to thwart him.
Today I’d like to examine the character of Saeros, whose role, though secondary, is not without interest.
If we were to think of other young ambitious characters in Tolkien (and in fairy tales in general) who make their way up in society and become favorites of Kings, would it be possible to recognize opposing characters who are always jealous of them and who always aim at hindering their ascension in society? What can you say about the role of this archetype in fairy tales?
We find these characters in many of the sub-plots of the Silmarillion, but do they represent anything bigger on a larger scale? I’m thinking of the general plot of the Silmarillion.
I find particular interest in the fate of Saeros. When Túrin returns, he takes to taunting him and to getting him riled up before he waylays him on the road to the marches. His speech is particularly significant I think: “If the Men of Hithlum are so wild and fell, of what sort are the women of that land? Do they run like deer clad only in their hair?”
He certainly knew what nerve to touch, didn’t he? Men don’t like hearing that kind of thing about their women. But I’d like to look beyond the mere insults of this unfortunate character. Of course we all know this is very significant with regards to a crucial later part of the story, but what is the significance of having Saeros foreshadow it?
What’s even more interesting is the way Saeros goes out. He tries to pick a fight with Túrin, but as expected, Túrin gets the better of him and sets him “to run naked as a hunted beast through the woods.” He then falls into the chasm of a stream to his death.
This is clearly a reference to a key event later on in the story, but that’s part two and I don’t want to talk about it too much. So what can you say about Saeros of all people being a parallel, a kind of foil character to Níniel?
What is the image we are given here? Saeros receives exactly what he mocks Túrin for. Is this justice in your opinion? Do you think there’s a message in there somewhere?
Do you think Túrin was really to blame for Saeros’ death? All he did was humiliate him. Do you think he drove him into the chasm, or that it was his intention to kill him later on? In any case, can he be blamed for the way Saeros actually died?
We'll pick up the discussion tomorrow with what happened after Saeros’ death. ‘Till then!
~We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold~
(This post was edited by Nix of Mirkwood on Dec 8 2009, 10:00am)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 9 2009, 5:52am
Post #2 of 7
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Is Saeros to Túrin as Denethor is to Thorongil?
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If we were to think of other young ambitious characters in Tolkien ... who make their way up in society and become favourites of Kings, would it be possible to recognize opposing characters who are always jealous of them and who always aim at hindering their ascension in society?
Or wait: as movie-Denethor is to movie-Shadowfax, who essentially forces the steward off a cliff? Not naked, though.
So what can you say about Saeros, of all people, being a parallel, a kind of foil character to Níniel?
Does guilt about the fate of Saeros make Túrin even more protective about the young woman who shudders at the waterfall, leading him to his doom?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Of Túrin Turambar".
 Also in the RR, Dec. 7-27: Letters from Father Christmas!
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Dec 9 2009, 9:59am
Post #3 of 7
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About the quality of the Elven leadership in Doriath. We have to Elves, Daeron, in a way, and Searos both high in the political leadership in Doriath. Yet both turn out to be quite nasty and spiteful in some of their dealings. Curiously, the better Elves in Doriath seem to be the military leaders, Beleg and Malbung. Is Tolkien making some comment here about the Warrior been better than the politician? Also it is interesting that here, as in Of Beren and Luthien, we have the noble Elves been presented in a rather evil manner and the men been the victims of their behaviour.
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 9 2009, 11:01am
Post #4 of 7
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If we were to think of other young ambitious characters in Tolkien (and in fairy tales in general) who make their way up in society and become favorites of Kings, would it be possible to recognize opposing characters who are always jealous of them and who always aim at hindering their ascension in society? What can you say about the role of this archetype in fairy tales?
Are you talking Daeron and Maeglin here? I didn't notice such things in LotR (unless you mean Lobelia to Frodo).
But yes, the stereotype is common. And it's understandable - those who were faithful all along, and followed the leader 'in the wilderness', do not always appreciate highflyers which come out of the blue.
We find these characters in many of the sub-plots of the Silmarillion, but do they represent anything bigger on a larger scale? I’m thinking of the general plot of the Silmarillion.
Do you mean the role of Men in a world dominated by Elves? Hmm...
He certainly knew what nerve to touch, didn’t he? Men don’t like hearing that kind of thing about their women. But I’d like to look beyond the mere insults of this unfortunate character. Of course we all know this is very significant with regards to a crucial later part of the story, but what is the significance of having Saeros foreshadow it?
Turin feeling the need to atone for his death?
But more than that. It awakened in Turin the feeling that he had actually deserted his folk in rags, and the sense of Elvish indiffirence to the fate of Men (think of Lindir's words in Many Meetings) - the seed which will ripen when he heeds Glaurung's taunts, and goes on his fools' errand to Dor-lomin rather than saving Finduilas.
So what can you say about Saeros of all people being a parallel, a kind of foil character to Níniel?
He is twice: both in running naked, and of failing in his leap (although Niniel didn't try to fet to the other side).
And you might also parallel Turin's causing Sauron's eath for Niniel's sake to his leaving Finduilas to die for Nienor's.
What is the image we are given here? Saeros receives exactly what he mocks Túrin for. Is this justice in your opinion? Do you think there’s a message in there somewhere?
A Sauron-like kind of justice.
But in The Children of Hurin this goes further, with Turin quoting his father as saying that without the instruction of the Eldar, Men would have been little better than beasts. Just what Saeros says, isn't it?
Do you think Túrin was really to blame for Saeros’ death? All he did was humiliate him. Do you think he drove him into the chasm, or that it was his intention to kill him later on? In any case, can he be blamed for the way Saeros actually died?
Yes, he is to blame - but not 'really'.
In The Children of Hurin, Turin says it was not his intention to kill Saeros - and I see no reason to question that.
"Of what sort are the women of that land?"
- Saeros
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Nix of Mirkwood
Nevrast
Dec 9 2009, 2:46pm
Post #5 of 7
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I quite like that actualy: politicians vs. the people who actually go out there and risk their lives fighting for what they believe in... that's very idealistic and naive, I know, but still...
~We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold~
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Nix of Mirkwood
Nevrast
Dec 9 2009, 3:06pm
Post #6 of 7
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You said: "But more than that. It awakened in Turin the feeling that he had actually deserted his folk in rags"
I never looked at it that way!
Yes, atcually, I was thinking Maeglin.
~We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold~
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Dec 12 2009, 4:50am
Post #7 of 7
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What is the image we are given here? Saeros receives exactly what he mocks Túrin for. Is this justice in your opinion? Do you think there’s a message in there somewhere?
Well....it's actually kind of comical...until it's not. I'm thinking I've seen this scene played in more than one film (likely of the comedy genre since I hear Steve Martin's voice saying something like "you picked on the wrong guy!"). In RL, I am more prone to not fight fire with fire and chalk up a display such as Saeros' as being *his* problem but...I am OK with Turin overcoming Saeors--if that means Searos attacked (waylaid) him and Turin knocked him on his can (overcame). That would be just, I suppose. Turin goes a bit far with the hunting through the woods business for me to label that as fair.
Do you think Túrin was really to blame for Saeros’ death? All he did was humiliate him. Do you think he drove him into the chasm, or that it was his intention to kill him later on? In any case, can he be blamed for the way Saeros actually died?
I don't think he caused a death, but I do think his actions contributed to this outcome. No, I don't think Turin intended to kill him.
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