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SaulComposer
Nargothrond
Dec 7 2009, 2:26pm
Post #1 of 23
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In The Hobbit.
Bilbo tries to get something out of one of the troll's pockets.
Since when trolls have pockets?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 7 2009, 3:59pm
Post #2 of 23
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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Of Túrin Turambar".
 Also in the RR, Dec. 7-27: Letters from Father Christmas!
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 7 2009, 4:24pm
Post #3 of 23
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Since Tolkien said that they do.
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After all, you can't expect his Trolls to walk around naked, now can you? 
Besides, even Gollum had a pocket!
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 7 2009, 4:30pm
Post #4 of 23
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After eating two and a half villages - where did they find tailors?
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Yes, I know. They went to New Zealand and got some from Ngila's crew.
I can't wait for the Arwen's Daughter "Did you ever notice William's pocket?" thread.
"Of what sort are the women of that land?"
- Saeros
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Dec 7 2009, 4:33pm
Post #5 of 23
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The word "pocket" originally meant a pouch. (Which originally meant a poke (as "pig in a poke").)
Eventually someone got the idea of sewing a pouch into clothing thus it became what we know today as a pocket.
******************************************
That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 7 2009, 8:05pm
Post #6 of 23
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This is one of many anachronisms found throughout The Hobbit.
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In LotR the anachronisms are more confined to the earlier, Hobbit-influenced chapters. In The Hobbit they persist throughout the book.
While Darkstone correctly notes that pockets were originally pouches not sewn to clothing, I don't think that's what Tolkien had in mind in The Hobbit. First, Tolkien refers to multiple pockets, not just one. Second, the original pockets were stolen by cutting the strings that tied them to the owner, not by picking the pocket. And third, as noted, this is one of many anachronisms in The Hobbit. The whole dialogue of the trolls is a long anachronism, as they speak in Cockney accents and use terms like "Lor' bless me."
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Idril Celebrindal
Dor-Lomin
Dec 7 2009, 9:41pm
Post #7 of 23
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What has it got in its pocketses?
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If Gollum can have one in his loincloth, surely a troll can, too.
The trolls have sacks, too -- basically, extra large pockets for stashing things that they want to eat (like Dwarves).
With caffeine, all things are possible.
The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 7 2009, 10:07pm
Post #8 of 23
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And if so, is it more like the trolls' pockets or the sacks they catch the dwarves in?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Of Túrin Turambar".
Also in the RR, Dec. 7-27: Letters from Father Christmas!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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squire
Gondolin
Dec 7 2009, 10:56pm
Post #9 of 23
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"Anachronism" against which time line?
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I know what you mean - it's a convenient shorthand for a rather complex subject. But I would hope for a more nuanced commentary than just calling various peculiar elements of Tolkien's fiction "anachronisms". When discussing these things, let's always resolve to add the following for context:
Typically we take anachronism to mean an item from a different time period than the main story, usually from the "future" relative to the story. The entire medieval approach to Bible stories, from translation to illustration, brims over with anachronisms because Europeans at the time were not so historically minded as we are.
But in The Hobbit (and The Lord of the Rings) - well, the entire thing's a fantasy, isn't it? So what era does it take place in, that pockets, clocks, umbrellas, tobacco, potatoes, gunpowder and even express trains are anachronistic in relation to? Bilbo's "Western Lands", and later The Shire and Middle-earth, is patently not early modern Europe; it's certainly not the middle ages; no classical equivalents come to mind. The best we can say is it seems to be "pre-industrial", yet craftsmen and artisans of those times (when they weren't fabricating water mills) devised the most fabulous mechanical toys and gadgets. Why not umbrellas and mantle-clocks?
As to the Trolls' speech being one long "anachronism" because it is Cockney-flavored. Hm. What would accurate-to-the-period Trolls' speech sound like?
Welcome back!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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SaulComposer
Nargothrond
Dec 7 2009, 11:41pm
Post #10 of 23
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What I understand is that Tolkien's trolls had clothing, and Jackson's trolls were naked.
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 8 2009, 9:45am
Post #12 of 23
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That will be an interesting one...
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Comparing the loincloth of The Hobbit, and seeing how it was exactly the same as in The Lord of the Rings (with a bit of wear and tear, naturally) - or perhaps in the first movie Gollum will have proper clothes, which will be taken when he was a prisoner in Mordor?
And it seems I have neglected your birthday post in Off-Topic.  A belated happy birthday!
"Of what sort are the women of that land?"
- Saeros
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Dec 8 2009, 2:16pm
Post #13 of 23
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Which is variously translated as “glove” (Hall), or “pouch” (Slade), or “tummy” (Darkstone).
******************************************
That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 8 2009, 7:49pm
Post #14 of 23
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If Gollum can have one in his loincloth, surely a troll can, too. The trolls have sacks, too -- basically, extra large pockets for stashing things that they want to eat (like Dwarves).
I can only think of one portion of a loincloth large enough to have a pocket on it (or in it). Or, as Rudyard Kipling said of Gunga Din's loincloth:
"The uniform he wore
Was nothing much before,
And little less than harf o' that behind."
Are you saying that Bilbo attempted to pick a pocket there? Not an appetizing mental image! On the other hand, it shows Bilbo as a lot braver than I would have expected that early in the story! And the troll especially dense for not noticing!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Dec 8 2009, 7:51pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 8 2009, 7:54pm
Post #15 of 23
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Good point. Perhaps "modern references" is a better term.
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As you note, the word "anachronism" implies that it doesn't belong, but Tolkien did not write historical novels, and shouldn't be held to that standard.
On the other hand, by his own standards Tolkien's Secondary World should be internally consistent, following internal rules. Is Tolkien consistent, or do the modern references break Tolkien's own rules?
In some ways, The Hobbit is more consistent, since the modern references are sprinkled throughout, and the timing of the tale is more vague. The historical feel of the tale is consistently inconsistent, with elements plucked from both modern and ancient settings.
In LotR Tolkien goes to the trouble of explaining the modern references in the Shire as a quirk of the "translation," and then works to eliminate such references in the rest of the book. Outside of the Shire, the tale combines elements of many pre-industrial historical periods, although to me it seems closest to a romanticized version of Europe just before the fall of Rome, during a period when Rome allied with Germanic tribes against Asian invaders. But it is a very romanticized version, which makes no attempt to be historically accurate or consistent. And it doesn't really resemble historical Europe in any period.
The Silmarillion Tolkien stays away from modern references altogether. But the armor and weapons and dwellings and animals and climate described in The Silmarillion make it feel like a romantized version of Europe during the middle-ages.
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Idril Celebrindal
Dor-Lomin
Dec 8 2009, 8:03pm
Post #16 of 23
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You're a better man than I am, Bilbo Baggins!
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Bilbo *is* trying to justify being hired as a professional burglar/expert treasure hunter, after all. Picking a troll's nether pockets would certainly do the trick.
With caffeine, all things are possible.
The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 8 2009, 8:10pm
Post #17 of 23
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My own understanding (right or wrong) is that the Shire more closely resembles conditions contemporary to Tolkien's childhood, and that the entire rest of the free world for that reason consider them a backwards people, because Tolkien tended to think of older as better. Elves would not have clocks on the mantle because clocks to them seem like part of an overall barbaric lifestyle. Imagine, not being able to sense what time it is naturally! Or unnaturally scheduling one's life down to the minute? No siree, those poor hobbits need some help and sympathy.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 8 2009, 11:00pm
Post #18 of 23
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Clocks might not work very well in Rivendell and Lothlorien.
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Not with Elrond and Galadriel slowing down time. Who needs clocks when you can control time?
But Rohan is another matter. Clocks would seem like advanced technology in Rohan.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Dec 8 2009, 11:32pm
Post #19 of 23
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Not with Elrond and Galadriel slowing down time. Who needs clocks when you can control time?
But Rohan is another matter. Clocks would seem like advanced technology in Rohan.
Good point about elven realms. Regarding Rohan, they might consider them a pain, not worth bothering with. I can't see the Rohirrim doing anything to a tight schedule. Gondor might do things on a tight schedule, but disdain anyone who can't gauge time by the motion of the sun and stars. I think that most of Middle Earth considers technology itself backwards, philosophically primitive.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Morthoron
Hithlum
Dec 10 2009, 3:34am
Post #20 of 23
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in all the pocketish theorizing, no one wonders at all about the purse inside the pocket, and an enchanted one at that: "There was a purse in it, as big as a bag to Bilbo." Of course, it squeaks in Cockneyish asides, just like its master. Be that as it may, I believe the pocket was...a pocket, anachronistic or no. A few paragraphs earlier, Tolkien mentions that a 'first-class and legendary burglar would at this point have picked the trolls' pockets" among other stellar burglarial feats.
""I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy." -- Charles Manson
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Dec 13 2009, 11:30pm
Post #21 of 23
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This talking purse was almost certainly a toy of Dwarfish origin. Tolkien did say that the Dwarves made many magical devices, this sounds like one of them! Also, it does seem a little like a mobile phone in a way. One wonders if sometime in one of the next generations of mobiles one will be invented which can say if someone it doesn't recognize grabs it, 'Oi, who are you?' 
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Ithil Gaurhirim
Lindon
Dec 16 2009, 7:08pm
Post #22 of 23
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Hobbits are all about comfort and manners. Comfort would mean getting their meals on time. Manners would mean arriving and departing at appropriate times. They have not the Elves deeper sense of nature nor their Lords / Ladies ability to control time. They are clever and quick with their hands. They have trade with Dwarfs who could help with the design and metal working. Why not have devices to let them know the minute of the day without having to leave their comfortable hole to check the sky? That would take away from eating and conversation, don't you know?
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Ithil Gaurhirim
Lindon
Dec 16 2009, 7:19pm
Post #23 of 23
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Trolls have pockets AND apparently sleeves. They must have been very civilized, for trolls, as they not only spoke "the Queen's English", wore clothes but William even had the decency to wipe his greasy lips on his sleeves for appearance's sake. And Im assuming that the pocket in question was on William back side as when the purse cried out, William had to turn around to catch Bilbo.
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