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almas_sparks
Nargothrond
Nov 21 2009, 4:00pm
Post #26 of 45
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with critical and boxoffice response it has. As for Oscars, it has never been meant for Oscars nor WB campaigns it as such. Perhaps they`ll do it for the very last one if response is like for TDK, but HP really doesn`t need that. Besides, Ringers are the only people that insist HP is ailing, finished, ship has sailed and what not even though facts speak against it. Even Twihards don`t go that far and Twilight is beyond huge as of yesterday. Like, how about getting over rivalry between LOTR and HP? There`s never been one except in some fan`s heads. besides, they are now in the same house and you bet WB will make sure both Hobbit and HP make as much as humanly possible and get all the accolades they can get. HP ends when The Hobbit starts so it must be super-exciting time for WB that they got such a money-maker to replace their most treasured golden goose.
(This post was edited by almas_sparks on Nov 21 2009, 4:02pm)
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xy
Nargothrond
Nov 21 2009, 6:48pm
Post #27 of 45
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re: actor's age and women wants
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Bilbo and Frodo are of the same age as they start their journey. They chose the very much too-young Elijah Wood for Frodo (the single worst casting choice), so I guess someone roughly in that age department for Bilbo as well ? I wouldn't want someone in their 50's or 60's in the lead role, even 40's may be pushing it.
As for the women...Bard the skilled archer will likely steal most of the attention. (and no one seemed to mind Legolas or Aragorn actors)
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 21 2009, 8:48pm
Post #28 of 45
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your opinion of Martin Freeman is common knowledge by this time. But one of the primary rules of this board is "no personal attacks and no namecalling", and in general we extend that courtesy to the actors we discuss. You don't have a high opinion of MF's acting ability but there's no call to insult him or the people who do like him and you're heading in that direction. Time to take a breath and tone it down a little.
I agree that Hugh Laurie is an amazing actor and I've been a fan since Blackadder and Jeeves and Wooster. But personally, I see nothing of Bilbo in him, or for that matter in several of the other actors that have been suggested (Colin Firth, for example). Acting talent is only part of good casting. The other is casting the right look and persona to bring an established and well-loved character to life on the screen. Once in a while I've seen an actor whose looks and personality are completely different from the character as described pull off a convincing performance, but mostly it doesn't work for me. Also, he's far too tall. I firmly expect that they'll cast in the same relative height ranges for hobbit and dwarf that they used last time, as it will eliminate the need for forced perspective in many scenes. I expect the actor who plays Bilbo to be well under 6'.
The ideal actor for Bilbo in my mind is one who both looks and can act the part. We may disagree on who that person is, but it's up to GDT and PJ to choose him. Based on their track record, I think they'll find (have found, probably) someone who will fit both requirements. I'm expecting good things.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Nov 21 2009, 8:52pm)
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almas_sparks
Nargothrond
Nov 21 2009, 9:34pm
Post #29 of 45
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I`m just annoyed that Freeman is talked about as if he is cast. Some people even say things like "when they announce Martin Freeman is Bilbo." Not cool, guys, not cool.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Nov 21 2009, 9:51pm
Post #30 of 45
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they're hoping for him to be cast just as intensely as you're hoping he won't. But it's not a vote, and nobody's opinion as expressed here is influencing the actual decision, so it's not worth getting too upset about. The same sort of thing happened with Gandalf's casting when for months prior to the announcement it was widely reported that the casting of Sean Connery was a done deal. In the end, I think most people were grateful about how that rumor turned out.
I don't think GDT would cast anyone he didn't feel he could get a good performance from as a director. So even if it is someone you don't like, they could end up surprising you. The quality of the direction can make a big difference in the quality of the acting.
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
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squire
Gondolin
Nov 21 2009, 10:34pm
Post #31 of 45
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Frodo was seventeen years younger than he should have been in the FotR films, because the director chose to compress the timeline and eliminate the long period between the Party and Frodo's assumption of the quest. And as you say, Elijah Wood was very young even to pull off 33 (much less 50).
However, I don't follow you when you say that, because Frodo was too young in the LotR trilogy, therefore The Hobbit film must follow the same path, and cast someone "in that age department" to the point where someone in his "40s may be pushing it."
It's true that in the books, Bilbo and Frodo both set out on their adventures at the age of 50 or so. The New Line version of LotR changed that, but why does that set a "rule" that must be followed with Bilbo in The Hobbit film? Why not stick to the author's vision, and cast a Bilbo who is indeed in "in his 50s"? Frodo was written by Tolkien as having grown to middle age before leaving the Shire, in imitation of Bilbo's story, not the other way around. It was not as important for Frodo to have been middle-aged in the film (although a little more maturity, and tummy, in both the actor and the written character wouldn't have hurt, I think).
In contrast to Frodo, Bilbo's identity as a middle-aged hobbit is central to the entire plot and theme of The Hobbit. A young actor for Bilbo - 33 or whatever - makes no sense in terms of his character's growth from out of his stodgy adulthood and his rediscovery of his childlike sense of wonder and magic.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 21 2009, 11:08pm
Post #32 of 45
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Even in the books, there is a big difference between Bilbo in TH and Frodo in LOTR
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To elaborate on your point further, even though in the books, Bilbo in The Hobbit and Frodo in The Lord of the Rings are said to be the same chronological age, 50, there is a big difference between the way the two are presented, particularly in regard to their appearances. In LOTR, even though Frodo is 50 at the time that the sets out from the Shire, Tolkien makes it clear that he still appears to be about 33, because of the effect of the Ring, which came to him when Bilbo left the Shire. Moreover, 33 is "just out of his tweens" and the implication in LOTR is that that is the equivalent of a human just out of his teens. From that point of view, Elijah Wood was not poorly cast from the point of view of appearance (I would argue that the big problem is that Frodo is not presented as having the maturity of a 50 year old, despite his youthful appearance). In contrast, in The Hobbit, 50 means 50. At the time that Bilbo sets off from Bag End, there has been no Ring to keep him appearing more youthful than he really is. There is also no concept of Hobbits aging slower than humans in The Hobbit though I expect that they will adopt that concept from LOTR both for consistency's sake, and to avoid casting a true 50 year old. But, most importantly, as you have already pointed out, Bilbo being a middle-aged Hobbit set in his ways is integral to the plot of The Hobbit in a way that an equivalent concept regarding Frodo simply is not the case in LOTR.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
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Finrod
Nargothrond
Nov 22 2009, 12:09am
Post #33 of 45
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Elijan Wood was the right age, but Ian Holm was not
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To elaborate on your point further, even though in the books, Bilbo in The Hobbit and Frodo in The Lord of the Rings are said to be the same chronological age, 50, there is a big difference between the way the two are presented, particularly in regard to their appearances. In LOTR, even though Frodo is 50 at the time that the sets out from the Shire, Tolkien makes it clear that he still appears to be about 33, because of the effect of the Ring, which came to him when Bilbo left the Shire. Moreover, 33 is "just out of his tweens" and the implication in LOTR is that that is the equivalent of a human just out of his teens. From that point of view, Elijah Wood was not poorly cast from the point of view of appearance
I agree.
I don't know why so many people misunderstand this. It seems pretty clear to me at least that Tolkien meant age 33 in Hobbits to correspond to about age 21 in Men. If you look at the family trees of Appendix C, the Hobbit women are bearing children at ages similarly extended. Belladonna Took bore Bilbo when she was 38. There are a lot of first births in the Hobbit mothers' late 30s and early 40s. Adamanta Chubb bore The Old Took a dozen children over a period of thirty years!
In contrast, in The Hobbit, 50 means 50. At the time that Bilbo sets off from Bag End, there has been no Ring to keep him appearing more youthful than he really is. There is also no concept of Hobbits aging slower than humans in The Hobbit though I expect that they will adopt that concept from LOTR both for consistency's sake, and to avoid casting a true 50 year old. But, most importantly, as you have already pointed out, Bilbo being a middle-aged Hobbit set in his ways is integral to the plot of The Hobbit in a way that an equivalent concept regarding Frodo simply is not the case in LOTR.
I'm a lot less certain of all that.
I don't mean that in The Hobbit it was made clear that Hobbits lived only two-thirds as fast as Men did. I just mean that I don't think it's entirely clear that Bilbo at 50 is supposed to be as middle-aged as a Man at that age would be. Certainly you can't have a Hobbit's span as shown in The Lord of the Rings making sense if Bilbo is supposed to be mid-middle aged, as it were. To my knowledge, Tolkien didn't ever go back to the earlier tale and adjust ages.
Especially for these new movies that need to maintain an even tighter similarity of milieu with the earlier movies than the two tales needed to, I really think the filmmakers have no choice but to do this. It wouldn't be sensible otherwise.
If you're right, though, then that would place Bilbo and Tolkien more of an age when the book was published. I mean, the same age in life's road. And I don't know that I've ever read anyone exploring just how much autobiographical wanderlust Tolkien may have imbued his hero with. Interesting idea, though.
I think we have to understand the Hobbits in The Hobbit from the point of view of how they were later developed in the longer tale. That means that Bilbo at 50 would be of an age and station corresponding to 32-35 in Men. You might conceivably push it a little bit toward 40, given that (21/33)*134 = 85, not 105 or whatnot. I read the character as being beyond the flush of youth but only situationally settled into middle age, but not entirely physically so.
I can more readily see a hale actor in his mid-30s doing the swashbuckle dance with String and the Mirkwood spiders more easily than I can see a gentleman 20 years senior to that age realistically doing so (pace Christopher Lee as Count Dooku). I think as long as the actor playing Bilbo is in his 30s, there shouldn't be any oddness. If he's not, it may require an alternate sort of suspension of disbelief. After all, the flashback of a younger Bilbo finding the ring was wrong in the sense of counter-canon. He should have looked precisely the same age physically at his 111th birthday as the day he found the Ring. Jackson messed that up, quite possibly deliberately, because of how wonderful an actor he had in Ian Holm. Jackson couldn't make Sir Ian as young for The Lord of the Rings as he should have been.
(NB: Please don't read this as criticism of either Jackson or Holm. I won't say that Sir Ian(s) can do no wrong in my book, but I will say that they did none: they were both absolutely splendid, truly becoming the characters for me. I can't say that about all the other actors and their rôles, but those two really did.) I also don't recall the issue of the Ring retarding physical age in Bilbo and Frodo being made so much of an issue in the movies as it was of course made in the book. I also agree that Frodo should have been shown as being slightly older and more responsible than his young cousins Merry and Pip. Doing so would have also helped clarify the master-servant (or officer-soldier) relationship of Frodo and Sam.
However, if the actor were in his 50s, that might be easier to swallow considering that Bilbo shouldn't have aged. The problem with that is it'd make it harder to accept a different person playing Bilbo. That's another reason why I think they need to make the actor in his early to mid 30s: so the different appearance from Sir Ian is more believable.
... all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house. The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the treesin Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311
(This post was edited by Finrod on Nov 22 2009, 12:14am)
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lyndomiel
Ossiriand
Nov 22 2009, 1:07am
Post #34 of 45
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Wood was perfectly cast as Frodo
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Finrod and VTF have got it right about Frodo's age and the casting issue. In addition, Wood is so unusual and striking looking that I think his looks could be considered elvish, as Tolkien described. I'm sure I am not the only person who thinks that Elijah's performance was the most underestimated in all of LOTR. Although I was sceptical at first, he move me to tears on several occasions.
Finrod is also right that Holms was too old to play Bilbo - but I loved his performance anyway.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 22 2009, 2:43am
Post #36 of 45
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Was Jackson's casting influenced by Bakshi?
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From "Bakshi, Ralph (1938-)" by Barry Langford in J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia:
The success of any animated film, from traditional cel animation to contemporary computer-generated imagery productions, relies heavily on the quality of the characterisations visualized. Here, too, Bakshi's The Lord of the Rings compares unfavorably with the animated classics to which it begs comparison. Although the ingenuous Frodo is a persuasive presence (who may have had some influence on Peter Jackson's subsequent casting of the not-wholly-dissimilar Elijah Wood), the clodhopping, serf-like portrayal of Sam, with bulbous nose and tombstone teeth, not only does the character a disservice but seems to operate in a different, more crudely caricatural graphic domain than most other principal characterisations. Many of the human characters—such as a wildly hirsute and rather callow Saruman; Aragorn, distinctly unkingly in a thigh-high skirt; a redbearded Viking Boromir; the notably Romanesque Elrond; the simpering cheerleader Galadriel; and the bald Dwarf Gimli—seem drawn from generic (perhaps Arthurian) preconceptions of medieval epic figures more appropriate to the bargain-basement "Animated Classics" series than to a serious adaptation of Tolkien's mythology. The Balrog—a Wookie adorned with moth wings— is no more felicitously conceived. If these judgments seem uncharitable, they are made in light of Bakshi's own stated ambition for The Lord of the Rings to "get away" from the "cartoon look" of his previous work and "reach a level of painting in animation" (Bruce, 34).
Emphasis added.
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lyndomiel
Ossiriand
Nov 22 2009, 5:07pm
Post #38 of 45
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Interesting - but I have no opinion on that. I've never been able to sit through more than five minutes of Bakshi without gagging. Was Jackson a fan?
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xy
Nargothrond
Nov 22 2009, 6:42pm
Post #39 of 45
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Frodo was too young in the LotR trilogy, therefore The Hobbit film must follow the same path, and cast someone "in that age department"...
I only said Frodo and Bilbo are of the same age in the story, so it would be logical to follow that in the movies. (though that is now impossible due to the tender age of 18 when Wood played Frodo..).
My impression is Hobbit "tweens" not so much middle aged, as just getting out of your teens/being a young adult compared with Men-Age. Say 20-25 years of age, 30 might be pushing it. Wood was 18. And also maybe I missed something but if I remember right Frodo is actually the oldest of the Hobbits, and I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure Wood is actually the youngest of the Hobbit actors !
(This post was edited by xy on Nov 22 2009, 6:46pm)
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xy
Nargothrond
Nov 22 2009, 7:02pm
Post #40 of 45
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I can't seem to edit the above post, but one more thing
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The ring influenced Bilbo's ageing, not Frodo (the latter didn't use it until his Quest started, unlike Bilbo). So indeed Ian Holm looks the same age when he found it, and on his 111th birthday.
I think - one year, is it? - of Frodo's quest didn't influence his appearance/age nearly as much as Bilbo having it for about 60 years, and using it several times. It's certainly not brought up in the book.
Frodo doesn't have the gravitas of his book self either. He lasted an entire book worth's of trials, compared to movie version that is about to pass out the first time he encouters the Wraiths.
How do we define the middle age ? From 40-60 ? 35 to 55 ?
(This post was edited by xy on Nov 22 2009, 7:04pm)
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lyndomiel
Ossiriand
Nov 22 2009, 8:25pm
Post #41 of 45
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LOTR page 52 - " As time went on, people began to notice that Frodo had also showed signs of good 'preservation': outwardly he retained the appearance of a robust and energetic hobbit just out of his tweens.
LOTR page 29 - "...as the hobbits called the irresponsible twenties between childhood and the coming of age at thirty-three."
We could argue endlessly about Jackson's choices for the film (and it's fun). I think generally he and his writing team made choices for greater character development within the movie storyline, which the book covered during events not included in the film: i.e. Frodo on the Barrow Downs, Aragorn and Arwen history.
Middle age at the time Tolkien wrote LOTR was probably skewed quite a bit younger that we see it now.
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xy
Nargothrond
Nov 22 2009, 9:24pm
Post #42 of 45
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probably skewed, because people live longer now than they did in Tolkien's time.
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Then again, if 33 is Hobbit-style coming of age (so 18 or 21 in come countries in our terms), and 50 is middle-age we can them assume there is a 17 year gap between the two periods of Hobbit ageing. Applying that to human terms -
17+21 = 38. 17+18=35. (both of these could be considered middle age)
I think this is a more passable age for someone swimming on barrels and fighting spiders and running from Orcs than literally following the age of 50 with the actor for Bilbo, and it's more passable with the choice of an actor as young as Elijah in LOTR.
I would consider more credible that a 35-ish actor aged into *Ian Holm's Bilbo* in 60 years much quicker than I would with a 20 year old kid...
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Finrod
Nargothrond
Nov 22 2009, 9:55pm
Post #43 of 45
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The ring influenced Bilbo's ageing, not Frodo...I think - one year, is it? - of Frodo's quest didn't influence his appearance/age nearly as much as Bilbo having it for about 60 years, and using it several times. It's certainly not brought up in the book.
All of that is completely wrong. See especially the sentence in the book immediately following the first of those that lyndomiel quoted for you.
... all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house. The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the treesin Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 23 2009, 12:41am
Post #44 of 45
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...has acknowledged borrowing an image or two from Bakshi.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 24 2009, 9:15am
Post #45 of 45
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Jackson has acknowledged borrowing an image or two from Bakshi.
That's true, and may account for the look of Frodo to some extent (although I've never seen Bakshi's movie either, so I don't have any personal opinion on that).
However, Jackson also has acknowledged the influence of Brian Sibley's BBC radio dramatization, which he provided to all the actors early on to give them a flavour of the story. In that, Ian Holm plays Tolkien's middle-aged Frodo quite faithfully - and yet he also gets across with his voice the feeling of naivete that book-Frodo experiences when he meets the great and wise. There is a childlike side to both Bilbo and Frodo that a book (and even a radio drama) can relatively easily create in a middle-aged character. But does a movie need to show that side in the look of the character as well? I'm just asking, not claiming to know the answer!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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