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Istar Indigo
Nevrast
Jun 7 2009, 10:56pm
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Tolkien at UVM- Week 4
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Greetings all!
My UVM students have been encouraged to register and place their questions on this site. I have reminded them of the etiquette of this discussion board and all boards. I hope to have a few students take advantage (for extra credit) of the depth of knowledge and seriousness of enquiry found at this site. Students will hopefully place "at UVM" in their usernames and use this space to direct their questions.
This is the beginning of Week 4 of our four week summer course. Please attach new questions to this thread.
yours,
Chris Vaccaro
[Istar Indigo]
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sai_uvm
Registered User
Jun 10 2009, 9:41pm
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Towards the end of Book V, the Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dur come out to face Aragorn and parley with Gandalf. He cliams to have Frodo captive and in exchange for the hobbit he wants Aragorn's forces to move out and never bother Sauron again. In addition he claims various lands across the kingdom of Men in Middle-Earth. This seems to me to be very uncharacteristic of Sauron as for most of the story he is arrogant and overconfident. Is this Sauron's way of buying time to gather his forces behind the Black Gate or is he genuinely concerned about Aragorn and his army?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jun 10 2009, 10:06pm
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Aragorn's army will be easier to kill if they surrender first. //
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We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!
Join us June 8-14 for "Inside Information".
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 10 2009, 10:30pm
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Sauron's genuinely concerned about Aragorn and Gandalf and the halflings.
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As well he should be. He's suffered a series of reversals and Aragorn and/or Gandalf may also have the Ring. And if Sauron has any ounce of foresight -- and as a powerful Maia, he should -- the signs should look ominous.
This behavior is consistent with everything that has happened since Aragorn confronted Sauron with the palantir, revealed himself, and wrestled control of the palantir away from Sauron. Aragorn has made Sauron so afraid that he hurried his attack.
Sauron never imagined, however, that his enemy would put the Ring in the hands of a halfling and send him to Mount Doom. It's not that he is overconfident, it's that he can't imagine what the good guys have in mind. He has a big blind spot.
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 11 2009, 6:14am
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And the army of the West is as yet a motley crew, combined of fragments of several different armies.
Also, note that whoever bears the Ring (the prime suspect would be Aragorn, but who knows?) does not fully control all his soldiers - some of them were unmanned, and had to be sent to Cair Andros - which isn't really important enough, not unless someone in that army really cares about a few civilian casualities in Minas Tirith. Not a Dark Lord's way of thinking!
So whoever wields the Ring now, must be pretty green in the business.
As Gandalf suggested in 'The Last Debate' - the Ring can help him if he is sudden; and he looks forward for a time of strife. Offering terms opens the possibility.
Think of young king Eomer, who leads half of the army. He will be left nearly unmolested by the terms offered, and has got the opportunity to entrench his position as King, which is as yet new and precarious - many in Rohan still remember he was out of favour for years, and I suppose not everyone saw through Grima's promises of peace and prosperity.
Or of Prince Imrahil, and the armies of the Southren fiefs. They too, will be quite left alone by the terms offered. True, Aragorn delivered them from the pirates - but by a terrifying Army of Dead, which in unreliable and anyway disbanded; and for what end did he deliver them? To sacrifice them on the plain of Dagorlad to further his ambitions?!
Or even Aragorn himself - how secure is he in Gandalf? Can't he see that the old Wizard actually wants to rule behind the throne, that he was merely a tool to set Denethor aside, and that he will not be able to enjoy his power forever? And does he really think with his control over his army he could even win to the Gates?
So it seems Sauron is acting just right - speaking of "the rabble of Gondor and its deluded allies" (most of the army are these 'deluded allies'), he is trying to sow doubt and dissent between his enemies.
And then he shows them the tokens - supposedly, most of the armies do not know their foolhardy leaders sent spies into Mordor, and that these top-secret spies were captured, and who knows what they have revealed? Or even, what in fact they knew? Would a greenhorn Ringbearer take all those allied leaders into his confidence - would he not fear they will try to overthrow him, and take the Ring for themselves? And wouldn't they do it, given half a chance?
So - just how many of the fifty-five hundred soldiers there will fight. and how many will start arguing? What of the minor leaders - will they be contented to find themselves trapped in a wild scheme, with no purpose save for furthering Aragorn and Gandalf's ambitions, which are shown now to have failed?
In the very worse case, they will disband, and then Sauron will need to consider whether to keep faith. Perhaps he might - why not? But Sauron doesn't really expect that. He thinks some of the army of the West will be unmanned, and a discord will appear between its leaders. Then he needs only to destroy them with one fell swoop, and send the Nazgul to pick up the Ring.
Perhaps even one of the leaders will be left alive, and could in time be given his own subservient ring - after all, one of the Nine is now free!
So I think Sauron acted wisely.
But as Curious (and Gandalf before him) pointed out, all his wisdom is based on the surmise that the commander of the Army of the West is actually the new Ringlord. He never dreams that the miserable escaped (or lost - who knows?) spy, was in fact the Ringbearer, on a mission to Mount Doom. Would you?
"In that case you may, perhaps, not altogether waste your time." - Smaug
(This post was edited by sador on Jun 11 2009, 6:17am)
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sai_uvm
Registered User
Jun 11 2009, 3:57pm
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wow..between yours and Curious's explanations I'm almost convinced that the story should have turned out that way; that Sauron's plan of sowing seeds of doubt should have worked. But then LotR wouldn't be a romance and our heroes couldn't be categorized as romantic heroes. Where exactly would they fit in...low mimesis??
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 11 2009, 4:09pm
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- Sauron does care, in a cold, mechanistic way. That is, he has not set out to slaughter everyone, he has set out to acquire slaves and land. True, if people insist upon freedom they serve no purpose but to stand in his way, and so (from his point of view) deserve to die. Yet even though he is also the Necromancer, and can make some use of dead slaves, living ones have a lot more potential.
- Not having loved, himself, he has no idea how much others might be willing to give up to save one lost halfling. He does know that people who love seem willing to give up a great deal to free a loved one. It's worth a shot. A surrender would certainly save on resources.
- He wants to mess with their minds. He has no idea what Frodo's mission was, Frodo having escaped, yet he can still use Frodo's effects for propaganda purposes. He's bluffing, pretending to have destroyed whatever mission Frodo was on, in order to drive them to despair. It almost works better than he imagined, because of course if Frodo did fail further battle would have no meaning whatsoever. Fortunately, Sam having swapped swords tells Gandalf and Aragorn that at least one hobbit survived and continues the mission. Sauron didn't know about the sword-swap.
- By having the Mouth of Sauron point out the origins of the various artifacts, he wants to publicly declare his justifications for attacking elvish and dwarvish strongholds at the same time. He wants his enemy to know that he knows the extent of their allies.
- Plus everything that everybody else said.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 11 2009, 8:29pm
Post #8 of 12
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Maybe, although I'm not sure the hobbits
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are ordinary, despite appearances. They are certainly not ordinary hobbits, and the more we learn about hobbits, the more we learn that they have some natural abilities Big Folk lack. So perhaps it would be High Tragedy.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jun 15 2009, 1:07am
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This certainly is the most entertaining thread I've read in a long time.....
I enjoyed Sador's thoughts & you almost had me there up until the part about Aragorn worrrying about Gandalf - just a bit too far fartched for me to buy that the 'man' who mentored him would now be a threat & all this woiuld be running through his head right then. when he's supposed to have the Ring....
And, with the armies running away they were already battle tested & when you're attacked, you tend to fight back.
I think Dreamdeer's #3 answer hits the nail on the head: Sauron was playing with them. In fact, the text says he was messing with their heads, perhaps buying time to get his troops into place..
This is what the text says:
'Sauron had already laid his plans, and he had a mind first to play these mice cruelly before he struck to kill.'
...So judging from that, I'd say Sauron had no intention of accepting any surrender, no did he expect to receive it. He was simply declaring the 'conspiracy '(great point, Dreamdeer) to justify future military operations & demoralizing his enemies by letting them know their spiy's mission had failed.
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 15 2009, 4:15am
Post #10 of 12
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 15 2009, 5:17am
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But I think you are mixing up what we know about Gandalf and Aragorn, and what Sauron knows about them. I think Sauron was pretty confident he could drive a wedge between them, or at least cast doubts in each other's mind - and what do you think would have happened, had Galadriel succumbed to temptation and taken the Ring?
I'm not saying like sai_uvm, that they would naturally have doubted each other - but the reason Aragorn and Gandalf would stick together, is percisely the reason they sent Frodo to Mordor.
And that's just what Sauron can't even guess.
"When they came to Bill Ferny's house they saw that the hedge there was tattered and unkempt, and the windows were all boarded up.
'Do you think you killed him with that apple, Sam?' said Pippin.
'I'm not so hopeful, Mr. Pippin,' said Sam."
Ferny is a small fish; a delinquette, and part-time ruffian.
But this week in the Reading Room - a real dragon is NOT AT HOME.
Join us!
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jun 17 2009, 7:15am
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Who knows what, at this point?
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Sauron has captured a spy, who got away. He does not have the Ring, and as Curious, sador, etc., point out, it's reasonable for him to assume that Aragorn or someone else in that company has it.
Now consider what Gandalf, et al., know:
Sauron is trying to play on the West's concern for its captured "spy" (he isn't revealing that the spy escaped, if he knows it), not realizing just how great the West's stakes really are. But Gandalf can deduce several important things: (1) Sauron can't have both Hobbits, because they only have one sword, etc. One is still loose in Morder. And, more importantly, (2) Sauron doesn't have the Ring, or else they wouldn't be having this parley at all. Therefore, although the situation is undeniably desperate, there is reason to believe the Ring is still progressing somehow toward Mt. Doom, and their only hope is to play out the hand, keeping Sauron focussed on them rather than the interior of Mordor.
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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