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squire
Gondolin
Jun 5 2009, 2:39am
Post #1 of 41
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"On the Doorstep" free-for-all: When good dwarves go bad.
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As Bilbo and the dwarves approach the Mountain, Tolkien builds a mood of desolation and despair. This is in explicit contrast to the premature celebrations we have just enjoyed at Laketown.
Look at some of Tolkien’s apparently contradictory language:
“They spend a cold and lonely night and their spirits fell.”
A. 13 dwarves and one hobbit, just as it had been for several months now. Well, how lonely could it have been?
“They were come to the Desolation of the Dragon, and they were come at the waning of the year.”
B. Gee, it’s only August – late summer. Is that really the “waning of the year” by any rational standard?
“Out of [the opening in the mountain] too there came a steam and a dark smoke.”
C. How could steam and smoke be differentiated if they came out of the same cave opening? Wouldn’t they mix together into a kind of mush? (I almost said “smog”!)
D. Has Smaug recently set the place on fire again? But hasn’t everything long since been burned, that can be burned? It’s been many years since the dragon settled in. What should we suppose makes the steam? The smoke?
Now we are finally at the foot of the Mountain. The dwarves are demoralized, and only Bilbo’s urging gets them to begin the search for the secret door. But just a page earlier, we read that it was the hidden door “on which all their hopes rested.”
E. Why do the dwarves give up at this point? Why is Bilbo not similarly affected?
The dwarves search for a path or trail up the mountain side, so they can find the hidden door. Finally Bilbo finds it, marked by a great stone pillar.
F. How hard could it be to climb a mountain, especially on its lower reaches? Are they not trying very hard, or is the mountain truly unclimbable except for one blazed trail?
When they move camp, the narrow path across the head of the cliff prevents them from carrying any “bundles or packs, so narrow and breathless was it”. Thus they have to haul their baggage up 150 vertical feet by rope.
G. Is the door hidden, or not? If hidden, why make the approach so impossible? The access to the secret door is for dwarves on foot only, without their equipment or weapons. Why did the dwarves of old put so much time and money into an inaccessible tunnel/doorway, leading exclusively from the King’s central treasure chamber? Is it designed entirely as an escape hatch from marauding dragons, who had never threatened Erebor in many centuries?
“Danger brooded in every rock.”
H. What does that mean? (and where does the path go "that led higher and higher on to the mountain"?)
The dwarves assault the rock face that conceals the door. All tools are in vain. They never even think about the words of their map, nor do they try any other spells.
I. Why do they attack with brute force a door built by their own magical culture, as if they were vandals?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 5 2009, 9:02am
Post #2 of 41
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Look at some of Tolkien’s apparently contradictory language:
“They spend a cold and lonely night and their spirits fell.”
A. 13 dwarves and one hobbit, just as it had been for several months now. Well, how lonely could it have been?
Don't they say you're never as lonely as when you're surrounded by people? If everyone is privately sensing disquiet and saying nothing, I think that could have been a very lonely night. Plus, outdoors you're normally surrounded by comforting sounds that you don't even notice consciously - bird sounds, running water, all those ambient noises that you can now buy to play through your headphones when you want reassurance! Once you're in the dead lands, all those taken-for-granted sounds would be missing, and you'd feel lonely without even realizing why.
“They were come to the Desolation of the Dragon, and they were come at the waning of the year.”
B. Gee, it’s only August – late summer. Is that really the “waning of the year” by any rational standard?
Yes, it's well into the waning of the day-length, which has been lessening since late June. That's much more noticeable in northern Europe, where darkness falls around 4 pm in winter, but it's light until perhaps 11 pm in summer. Plus, in northern Europe the seasonal temperature variation is quite small, so, other than the amount of daylight, it's really only the amount of vegetation that makes a big difference between the seasons. And I guess they have left the vegetation behind.
(In this sentence, I was also struck by the archaic 'they were come', used twice. It sounds much more weighty somehow, don't you think, than 'they had come'? Tolkien seems to be shifting storytelling gears. Something serious is happening now...)
“Out of [the opening in the mountain] too there came a steam and a dark smoke.”
C. How could steam and smoke be differentiated if they came out of the same cave opening? Wouldn’t they mix together into a kind of mush? (I almost said “smog”!)
Have you ever seen a steam train travelling at full steam? The white steam and the dark smoke are very much separate - the steam rises quickly while the smoke seems to be heavier and lies much lower. For all I know, this may be caused by the movement of the train, so that the mixing you're describing might be more likely at a cave opening. But Tolkien, and his original readers, would have seen plenty of steam trains, so I'm sure they would have no trouble with Tolkien's image. (P.S., 'smog' and 'Smaug' are not homophones in British English... )
D. Has Smaug recently set the place on fire again? But hasn’t everything long since been burned, that can be burned? It’s been many years since the dragon settled in. What should we suppose makes the steam? The smoke?
Surely dragons can belch fire without actually having anything to set fire to? After all, fire is one of the four elements, not just the visible energy given off by combustion as it is to us...
And if this description is based on the activity of a volcano, as I suspect, then I think the smoke and steam would suggest that the volcano is stirring. The smoke maybe comes from the magma? And the steam probably from the evaporation of underground water as the ground heats up.
Now we are finally at the foot of the Mountain. The dwarves are demoralized, and only Bilbo’s urging gets them to begin the search for the secret door. But just a page earlier, we read that it was the hidden door “on which all their hopes rested.”
E. Why do the dwarves give up at this point? Why is Bilbo not similarly affected?
I can understand the dwarves being demoralised. As the story tells us, "They were at the end of their journey, but as far as ever, it seemed, from the end of their quest." They are now faced with the depressing reality of what seemed like a romantic adventure when they sang of it back in Bag End.
I suppose one reason Bilbo isn't as affected is that he didn't have those high hopes and expectations in the first place. And now we also see the hidden scholar in Bilbo revealing himself - he's the one who starts to study the map, and that intellectual activity seems to inspire him with the desire to solve the puzzle.
The dwarves search for a path or trail up the mountain side, so they can find the hidden door. Finally Bilbo finds it, marked by a great stone pillar.
F. How hard could it be to climb a mountain, especially on its lower reaches? Are they not trying very hard, or is the mountain truly unclimbable except for one blazed trail?
If it's a volcano, I imagine it could be quite difficult indeed, as Mount Doom was for Frodo and Sam. If it's slippery, treacherous ash (as we see with the movie Mount Doom, which was a real volcano), it could be pretty difficult terrain to climb, I would think.
When they move camp, the narrow path across the head of the cliff prevents them from carrying any “bundles or packs, so narrow and breathless was it”. Thus they have to haul their baggage up 150 vertical feet by rope.
G. Is the door hidden, or not? If hidden, why make the approach so impossible? The access to the secret door is for dwarves on foot only, without their equipment or weapons. Why did the dwarves of old put so much time and money into an inaccessible tunnel/doorway, leading exclusively from the King’s central treasure chamber? Is it designed entirely as an escape hatch from marauding dragons, who had never threatened Erebor in many centuries?
Now you're asking! Why do the mysterious artefacts of ancient peoples so often seem to be in such hard-to-reach places? Mostly, we don't know. Partly, I suppose, it's because only the hard-to-reach ones have not been found and destroyed long ago. Also, over time land formations change - especially in the region of a volcano. That "narrow path" might have been much wider when the door was built.
“Danger brooded in every rock.”
H. What does that mean? (and where does the path go "that led higher and higher on to the mountain"?)
Maybe the context will help:
"Out up there a silence reigned, broken by no bird or sound except that of the wind in the crannies of stone. They spoke low and never called or sang, for danger brooded in every rock."
It seems to be a feeling, rather than a statement of fact.
(I don't know about the path - is there a mention later of some other entrance? Tolkien rarely seems to put paths into his stories that he doesn't need...)
The dwarves assault the rock face that conceals the door. All tools are in vain. They never even think about the words of their map, nor do they try any other spells.
I. Why do they attack with brute force a door built by their own magical culture, as if they were vandals?
They certainly don't seem to have the careful approach of scholars, do they? They seem to care only about the treasure, and not about preserving the artefacts of their ancestors. This is the Indiana Jones approach to archaeology...
As for forgetting their magical tools, that's a recurring theme in Tolkien, I think. Frodo forgets he has the Phial of Galadriel when he's facing Shelob, and has to be reminded by Sam. And Sam forgets about his gift later, and is reminded by Frodo. There seems to be something about magic that makes you forget about it at first - perhaps you have to get your mind beyond the here-and-now before you can grasp the magic.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jun 5 2009, 9:05am)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 5 2009, 2:43pm
Post #3 of 41
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Look at some of Tolkien’s apparently contradictory language:
“They spend a cold and lonely night and their spirits fell.”
A. 13 dwarves and one hobbit, just as it had been for several months now. Well, how lonely could it have been?
They felt lonely because all the men who rowed them and brought supplies made a great show of refusing to stay the night. It's the setting, and the contrast with the Lake-town banquets they just left, that makes them feel lonely. You don't know how lonely you are until you have a few days of non-stop parties thrown in your honor.
“They were come to the Desolation of the Dragon, and they were come at the waning of the year.”
B. Gee, it’s only August – late summer. Is that really the “waning of the year” by any rational standard?
Is it August? Then why does Thorin say "'Tomorrow begins the last week of autumn'"? Why does it say at the end of the previous chapter that "autumn was now getting far on"?
“Out of [the opening in the mountain] too there came a steam and a dark smoke.”
C. How could steam and smoke be differentiated if they came out of the same cave opening? Wouldn’t they mix together into a kind of mush? (I almost said “smog”!)
Steam from the water, smoke from the air. There's a stream coming out of the opening too.
D. Has Smaug recently set the place on fire again? But hasn’t everything long since been burned, that can be burned? It’s been many years since the dragon settled in. What should we suppose makes the steam? The smoke?
It's part of Smaug's "foul reek." His breath, even after hundreds of years of slumber, makes the water steam and fills the air with smoke. Apparently he has some form of internal combustion, fueled by Morgoth's taint. As with immortality or the unusual characteristics of lembas, it's best not to look for a scientific explanation.
Now we are finally at the foot of the Mountain. The dwarves are demoralized, and only Bilbo’s urging gets them to begin the search for the secret door. But just a page earlier, we read that it was the hidden door “on which all their hopes rested.”
E. Why do the dwarves give up at this point? Why is Bilbo not similarly affected?
The dwarves bought into the songs and were starting to think this would be easy. Therefore their expectations have been dashed. Bilbo was glum all along, so he's less affected by reality sinking in. And despite his mood, he's learned to rely on his luck.
The dwarves search for a path or trail up the mountain side, so they can find the hidden door. Finally Bilbo finds it, marked by a great stone pillar.
F. How hard could it be to climb a mountain, especially on its lower reaches? Are they not trying very hard, or is the mountain truly unclimbable except for one blazed trail?
It depends on the mountain, and it depends on which side of the mountain you want to climb. Apparently this part of the mountain is more of a cliff.
When they move camp, the narrow path across the head of the cliff prevents them from carrying any “bundles or packs, so narrow and breathless was it”. Thus they have to haul their baggage up 150 vertical feet by rope.
G. Is the door hidden, or not?
Hidden.
If hidden, why make the approach so impossible?
It's hidden and hard to approach, therefore doubly secure.
The access to the secret door is for dwarves on foot only, without their equipment or weapons. Why did the dwarves of old put so much time and money into an inaccessible tunnel/doorway, leading exclusively from the King’s central treasure chamber? Is it designed entirely as an escape hatch from marauding dragons, who had never threatened Erebor in many centuries?
Not entirely. Apparently someone foretold that on a Durin's Day in the future, someone would need to get in from outside. But yes, it was primarily designed as an escape hatch from inside, not for access from outside.
“Danger brooded in every rock.”
H. What does that mean?
It means they don't know what they are afraid of, since they are surrounded by nothing but rocks, but they are still afraid. I had this feeling once the night after a bear paid a visit to our camp. The bear didn't come back, but still felt like there was a bear behind every tree and rock.
(and where does the path go "that led higher and higher on to the mountain"?)
Well, the door wouldn't be hidden if the path just stopped right at the door. Maybe the path goes to the top, maybe it goes to another part of the mountain, maybe it goes to an old watchpost. The point is that it can't stop here, without giving away the secret.
The dwarves assault the rock face that conceals the door. All tools are in vain. They never even think about the words of their map, nor do they try any other spells.
I. Why do they attack with brute force a door built by their own magical culture, as if they were vandals?
They don't know if it is Durin's Day, and they're frustrated. Plus, they're dwarves. They have a hard time believing that they can't force the door. As for spells, I get the impression that dwarves are better at setting spells than undoing them. They did try what they knew of spells of opening. But if Gandalf were here, he might encourage them to sit down and think -- which is what Bilbo finally does.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 5 2009, 2:51pm)
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jun 5 2009, 4:54pm
Post #4 of 41
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A. Well, how lonely could it have been?
I'm thinking along the same lines as FFH and Curious here--after being the center of attention in a populated area that was filled with voices (singing songs about them at that!) I can see that the Dwarves would really hear the relative sound of silence.
B. Gee, it’s only August – late summer. Is that really the “waning of the year” by any rational standard?
Is it? I was thinking it was later in the year.
How could steam and smoke be differentiated if they came out of the same cave opening? Wouldn’t they mix together into a kind of mush? (I almost said “smog”!)
C. One probably rises higher than the other (hmm...what has more *weight* smoke or steam?) and the colors might be slightly different. How likely is it that the differences would be noticeable? Likely enough-- if one is really paying attention, I suppose.
D. Has Smaug recently set the place on fire again?
That's what I suggested in NEB's thread.
But hasn’t everything long since been burned, that can be burned?
Yes, but regrowth isn't ruled out, is it?
It’s been many years since the dragon settled in. What should we suppose makes the steam? The smoke?
(  chemistry question!?!)
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Jun 5 2009, 9:09pm
Post #5 of 41
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Maybe it's because of the kind of work they'd felt reduced to taking up over the years that they return to the homeland acting more like old Swiss strahlers than heirs and kinfolk with a key? I wonder if Tolkien encountered any strahlers on his way up to the Grimsel Pass, or just listened to the guide's stories...
*wanders off, mumbling*
To his feet he bound
The iron crampons, and, ascending, trod
The Upper Realms of Frost; then, by a cord
Let half-way down, entered, a grot star-bright,
And gathered from above, below, around,
The pointed crystals.
O'er mountains bright
With snow and light...
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jun 5 2009, 9:17pm
Post #6 of 41
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...there was an broad path leading to it?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!
Join us June 1-7 for "On the Doorstep".
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 6 2009, 1:10am
Post #7 of 41
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The path led past it, not to it.//
[In reply to]
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 6 2009, 6:42pm
Post #8 of 41
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If a volcano is smoking (not just steaming), then that means that it is erupting, although in a very low-intensity manner.
The steam is literally steam - water seeps in through cracks in the ground, gets superheated by the hot rocks below, boils, and vents out as steam.
It is clear that Tolkien is taking mythological inspiration from descriptions of volcanoes here. Moreover, the Lonely Mountain bears all the hallmarks of being volcanic in origin: you almost never find mountains out in the middle of plains all by themselves unless they are volcanoes.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 6 2009, 8:51pm
Post #9 of 41
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Explain to me, please, how you came to the conclusion that this happened in August? We know that the Lake Towners feasted Bilbo and the dwarves on Bilbo's birthday (September 22) because later (at his eleventy-first birthday) he expresses regret that at the time he could only say "Thag you very buch" due to his cold. Then they stayed for some time at Esgaroth, because they had to recuperate from their arduous passage (including Bilbo recovering from his cold--for all we know, he wasn't the only one to fall sick!) and also because it takes time to provision a major expedition like that, when one has arrived in a beggarly state to begin with. So late autumn does not sound at all far-fetched to me.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 6 2009, 9:58pm
Post #10 of 41
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Explain to me, please, how you came to the conclusion that this happened in August? We know that the Lake Towners feasted Bilbo and the dwarves on Bilbo's birthday (September 22) because later (at his eleventy-first birthday) he expresses regret that at the time he could only say "Thag you very buch" due to his cold.
I didn't think of it when I answered in this thread, but you're right, the birthday gives us a perfect time-check (even if we can only use that knowledge with hindsight).
Anyway, the puzzle later in the chapter relies on the date of Durin's Day, "the first day of the last moon of Autumn".
What's now puzzling me is what is meant by Autumn here. If Autumn starts at the Autumn equinox (September 22) and ends at the Winter solstice (Dec 21), then the "first day of the last moon" would surely have to be around the start of December (since it take two weeks for the moon to go from the "thin new moon" that Bilbo sees to the full moon - moons, if I understand correctly, are named and dated by the full moon). But surely it can't be December already?
I found another possibility in Wikipedia:
In traditional reckoning, the seasons begin at the cross-quarter days. The solstices and equinoxes are the midpoints of these seasons. For example, the days of greatest and least insolation are considered the "midsummer" and "midwinter" respectively.
So, according to traditional reckoning, winter begins between 5 November and 10 November; spring between 2 February and 7 February; summer between 4 May and 10 May; and autumn between 3 August and 10 August.
Assuming that the Wikipedia article is reliable, this would mean that the "first day of the last moon of Autumn" would be in late October. (And incidentally, it would give squire's original question a basis in fact - it seems that Autumn did begin in August, according to the traditional reckoning.)
Depending on how you define Autumn, then, Durin's Day could either be in October or December - unless I've got my reasoning wrong, which is definitely a possibility. October sounds more like it to me, but if anyone can cast any further light (no pun intended....) on this, I'd love to hear about it!
(I've just come across this article in the Encyclopedia of Arda, and they say that Durin's Day is "the new moon that occurs within two weeks of 6 October, on a modern calendar". But they don't seem to explain where they get that 6 October.)
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 7 2009, 1:18am
Post #11 of 41
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I keep forgetting a most valuable resource: Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth!
She does a great job of creating time-lines based on events in the books. For The Hobbit, she shows:
October 19. Bilbo discovers the hidden path. The camp is moved to the hidden bay.
October 30. Durin's Day...
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.
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November 23...The Battle of Five Armies...
November 27. Gandalf, BIlbo, and Beorn leave Lonely Mountain.
December 30. They arrive at Beorn's and stay until spring.
She explains her reasoning: "Calculating backwards, with time allowed for the armies' march, the siege, the battle, and Bilbo's return to Beorn's before Yule, Durin's Day would not have been later than October 30. That was the estimate shown, but if precise calculation of Durin's Day was beyond the skill of the Dwarves, it certainly was beyond mine."
I love her humor there! But that confirms your finding that the "traditional reckoning" of the start of Winter, November 6-10, is the one used by the Dwarves.
An extra note: Rateliff (HoH) does not specify a date for Durin's Day, but felt that Tolkien's specifying it as arriving at the last new moon of Autumn was "in keeping with the Celtic calendar, which began the new year on 1st November."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 7 2009, 6:26am
Post #12 of 41
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“They spend a cold and lonely night and their spirits fell.”
A. 13 dwarves and one hobbit, just as it had been for several months now. Well, how lonely could it have been?
Bilbo has never really chummed up with the dwarves.
And I guess most of the dwarves, coming to this place - feel it crowded with their dead friends and relatives - although only Balin speaks of it. The place is haunted.
“They were come to the Desolation of the Dragon, and they were come at the waning of the year.”
B. Gee, it’s only August – late summer. Is that really the “waning of the year” by any rational standard?
Looking at the titles in Flat Mode, it seems others have answered that.
Just to point out that Bilbo arrived on the barrel in late September. He wouldn't catch such a shocking cold on August!
But seriously - this is just before the Dwarves' New Year's Day. At least that year (the only year relevant in The Hobbit), is waning.
“Out of [the opening in the mountain] too there came a steam and a dark smoke.”
C. How could steam and smoke be differentiated if they came out of the same cave opening? Wouldn’t they mix together into a kind of mush? (I almost said “smog”!) I've made the connection long ago, and wondered about it. If one can trust Wikipedia, this is a term Tolkien probably knew and had in mind when naming his wereworm.
D. Has Smaug recently set the place on fire again? But hasn’t everything long since been burned, that can be burned? It’s been many years since the dragon settled in. What should we suppose makes the steam? The smoke?
In N.E.B.'s thread, I suggested he might have (burned the area around recently).
Now we are finally at the foot of the Mountain. The dwarves are demoralized, and only Bilbo’s urging gets them to begin the search for the secret door. But just a page earlier, we read that it was the hidden door “on which all their hopes rested.”
E. Why do the dwarves give up at this point? Why is Bilbo not similarly affected? It's important to dampen the atmosphere, and to keep the audience feeling they are seeking the answer to this riddle alone (with Bilbo as their projection).
But I agree it makes little sense in the terms of the story. I can't think of any satisfying internal reason for this.
In fact, this is one thing I won't mind if the filmmakers change, assuming the movie can project the gloom sufficiently by other techniques (I suppose true purists will disagree with me).
The dwarves search for a path or trail up the mountain side, so they can find the hidden door. Finally Bilbo finds it, marked by a great stone pillar.
F. How hard could it be to climb a mountain, especially on its lower reaches? Are they not trying very hard, or is the mountain truly unclimbable except for one blazed trail? I guess climbing a volcanoe is not that easy.
But I have no first-hand experience in real mountain-climbing, and others here seem to be more dedicated hikers than myself (N.E.B.? Curious? Morothron?).
When they move camp, the narrow path across the head of the cliff prevents them from carrying any “bundles or packs, so narrow and breathless was it”. Thus they have to haul their baggage up 150 vertical feet by rope.
G. Is the door hidden, or not? If hidden, why make the approach so impossible? The access to the secret door is for dwarves on foot only, without their equipment or weapons. Why did the dwarves of old put so much time and money into an inaccessible tunnel/doorway, leading exclusively from the King’s central treasure chamber? Is it designed entirely as an escape hatch from marauding dragons, who had never threatened Erebor in many centuries? Oh well, there are other dangers - marauding goblins, for instance. And there is at least one unaccounted-for Balrog somewhere in the Northren World.
The last one was a joke, of course; but the need for an emergency exit could have been a Moria-inspired lesson. Just think that if Moria had one - some fugitives of Balin's colony might have made their way out, and told the sad tale.
“Danger brooded in every rock.”
H. What does that mean? (and where does the path go "that led higher and higher on to the mountain"?) Slippery paths? Mountain slides?
I would guess the path goes to the crown of the Mountain. It's a neat way to disguise an emergency exit - no need to create an unaccounted-for path especially for it!
But of course, the danger of this is that an army who completely surrounds the Mountain for a siege, will block this escape-route, too.
The dwarves assault the rock face that conceals the door. All tools are in vain. They never even think about the words of their map, nor do they try any other spells.
I. Why do they attack with brute force a door built by their own magical culture, as if they were vandals? In case Smaug piled a few rocks before the magic door; or a mountain-slide blocked it.
(Note: I think this was also made here only for the book's atmosphere, and wouldn't mind skipping this in the movie, either; bit unlike your question E - here I can find an internal reason for the dwarves' actions).
"And winter comes after autumn." - Bifur
(This post was edited by sador on Jun 7 2009, 6:28am)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 7 2009, 9:53am
Post #13 of 41
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Hmmm.
You and squire clearly see a sufficient homophone here for 'Smaug' and 'smog' to be a possible pun.
There are two questions here: first, do you pronounce 'Smaug' as Sm-ow-g or Sm-oh-g? Whether it's Germanic or Elvish, I believe the 'au' should always be pronounced 'ow' (as in 'Sauron'). In which case, it sounds nothing like 'smog' at all.
But even if you pronounce 'Smaug' as sm-oh-g, that's still nothing like 'smog' to a British English speaker - they are no more alike than 'sheep' and 'ship', say, and surely you wouldn't think of making a pun out of them?
So I really don't see any reason to assume that Tolkien would have intended a pun on 'smog'. He had every reason to know the term, as you point out. But I can't imagine that the two words would have sounded sufficiently alike to him to trigger any such allusion. Not to mention that smog is cold and damp and dull - not very dragonish, I'd have thought, for someone who 'desired dragons with a profound desire'!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jun 7 2009, 9:58am)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 7 2009, 12:19pm
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I've just realized that Americans are probably saying something more like 'sm-ah-g', which for some reason didn't dawn on me earlier (despite the fact that I lived in North America for 30 years and even have two grown sons with North American accents).
I've tried to think why this pronunciation just isn't a possible one for Brits, and all I can think of is that it runs into the pronunciation of 'ar' - i.e. standard English 'received pronunciation' in which the letter 'r' is not pronounced after a vowel. If you wanted Smaug's name to be pronounced sm-ah-g by speakers of standard British English, then you'd have to write it 'Smarg'. But even then, it wouldn't sound like 'smog', unfortunately!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 7 2009, 12:26pm
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From Letter #24 to Stanley Unwin, 18 February 1938:
"..The dragon bears as name - a pseudonym - the past tense of the primitive Germanic verb Smugan, to squeeze through a hole: a low philological jest."
Using Germanic pronunciation, the "au" would be spoken as "ow" (or, "au" as in "Haus"). So "Smaug" is "sm-ow-g" (or to be more accurate, you could "aspirate" the "g" on the end).
Of interest is that Tolkien refers to "Smaug" as a "pseudonym"!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 7 2009, 12:43pm
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That certainly clears up the pronunciation, for me. I hadn't seen your post when I posted my afterthought.
Of interest is that Tolkien refers to "Smaug" as a "pseudonym"!
Yes, that is interesting! Does he mean that Smaug has a name for himself, that we are never told? Normally, of course, all objects, animals and other creatures are named by us humans, the only race with language. But perhaps Smaug transcends that, and has a secret name of his own....
Or could the reference be to the Dwarves using a 'pseudonym' for the dragon? Just as they don't tell others their own right names, perhaps they also avoid naming other creatures - as people used to avoid naming the Devil (or He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, for that matter!  ), because in ancient cultures there's magic in a name. Which means that the Dwarves could have known the dragon's 'real' name but never spoken it to Bilbo, with the result that the name never came down to us....
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 7 2009, 12:58pm
Post #17 of 41
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Yes, just like Durin's Bane did
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According to our resident resident scholar and law commentator.
Does he mean that Smaug has a name for himself, that we are never told? Normally, of course, all objects, animals and other creatures are named by us humans, the only race with language. But perhaps Smaug transcends that, and has a secret name of his own....
"And winter comes after autumn." - Bifur
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 7 2009, 9:09pm
Post #18 of 41
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I think you're onto something. When you consider that the hobbits celebrate Lithe on the summer solstice, and also call it mid-summer's day, it does seem to indicate that Middle Earth reckons seasons from the cross-quarters.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 7 2009, 11:16pm
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new people to lead discussions, without fear. Even squire makes mistakes, and when he does, we still have an interesting and illuminating discussion.
And by the way, I was this close to explaning why August made perfect sense (something to do with the far-north latitude of the Lonely Mountain and the noticeable shortening of days) before I read the text more closely and thought to question your premise.
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jun 7 2009, 11:29pm
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another prouncer of Smaug as smog here. So Smaug doesn't rhyme with the (American spoken) smog, log, frog... but rhymes with...what? How, now, wow (all + a "g") but not snow or row. Reminds me of an "I Love Lucy" episode when Ricky was working on tough, through, thought (or something like that). 
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jun 8 2009, 3:07am
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But I have no first-hand experience in real mountain-climbing, and others here seem to be more dedicated hikers than myself (N.E.B.? Curious? Morthron?).
I've spent a lot of time outdoors, but never done any technical climbing, i.e., anything requiring equipment. "How hard could it be to climb a mountain, especially on its lower reaches?" Plenty hard, depending on the terrain. Cliffs can be found at any elevation. And I've found myself feeling stuck and anxious on rock faces less than twenty feet from the ground below. Tolkien's description of the path reads entirely believably to me.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jun 8 2009, 3:15am
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Is this like the forgetfulness in C.S. Lewis's "The Silver Chair"?
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The dwarves forgetting the map runes here seems like Eustace and Jill forgetting Aslan's instructions in the fourth Narnia novel.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jun 8 2009, 3:22am
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How do you pronounce "auger", "augment" and "August"?
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In most American English, the first syllables of those words has about the same sound as "dog", "fog", and "smog". My Webster's New World Dictionary uses the same symbol (ô) for all of them.
Not to mention that smog is cold and damp and dull - not very dragonish, I'd have thought, for someone who 'desired dragons with a profound desire'!
Again, for Americans, the first image that "smog" would convey is stifling, warm weather in Los Angeles. It's helpful to be reminded that Tolkien would likely not have made that association!
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 8 2009, 5:33am
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That's still a lot more than me
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Or maybe I should take a different tack, and say I didn't mean the RL you, but the guy on your avatar?
"And winter comes after autumn." - Bifur
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