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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 13 2009, 3:32pm
Post #1 of 32
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Flies and Spiders V. Wild Elves (long)
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V. Wild Elves–Wednesday, May 13, 2009
We’ve had hints, before:
“...they became aware of the dim blowing of horns in the woods and the sound as of hounds baying far off. Then they all fell silent; and as they sat it seemed they could hear the noise of a great hunt going by to the north of the path, though they had no sign of it.”
“At times they heard disquieting laughter. Sometimes there was singing in the distance, too. The laughter was the laughter of fair voices not of goblins, and the singing was beautiful, but it sounded eerie and strange, and they were not comforted, rather they hurried on from those parts with what strength they had left.”
(Feel free, if you prefer, to completely ignore the questions below and tell us what you think, feel, or intuit about Mirkwood Elves, Gothic fairy imagery, or anything related.)
1. Picture yourself in the dimness of Mirkwood, hungry, thirsty, weary, and desperate, hearing these things. Would you find them disquieting? If you agree, then what would you say makes these fair voices and this laughter so different from the singing and laughter of the elves who first welcomed the party to Rivendell? What do you expect from these elves, as opposed to those? If you disagree, then what do you think makes the dwarves and Bilbo see things differently?
2. Does the setting shape these elves, or would they be the same in a sunny field? Is the setting merely a context, or do you think it actually makes them different? Do you think that the same dark influence of the Necromancer’s Tower that has so mutated nature in Mirkwood has any effect on the elves who also dwell there, and hunt the mutant creatures in its depths, feasting on strange meat?
3. Bonus question: Might this part of Mirkwood bear any resemblance to that land of madness between Doriath and the realms of Morgoth that Beren crossed?
4. Would you have viewed Legolas differently if you had first encountered him as a voice or glimpse in Mirkwood? Might Peter Jackson have portrayed Legolas differently had he made “The Hobbit” first? Does Tolkien ever remind us, in LotR, that Legolas is, in fact, a Mirkwood elf?
Just when Bombur gives up, the dwarves see “a red twinkle in the dark.” We have already learned the dangers of approaching strange fires in the wild, and the dwarves haven’t forgotten their lesson with the trolls, either, and additionally, they’ve been warned that if ever they leave the path they won’t find their way back on it again, but hunger is a strong persuader. After much debate (during which Bombur and Bilbo sided together on behalf of throwing caution to the wind, starvation being fairly certain if they did not) they resolve to check out the fires.
And lo and behold, they find the fairy-feasts that Bombur dreamed about! Mysterious, enticing glimpses caught from a distance through trees, vanishing the moment they enter the clearing, only to suddenly pop up elsewhere. Three times this happens, each time drawing the dwarves further into the woods and leaving still more lost. Whenever the firelight vanishes, they’re left in such total dark that they have to find each other by calling out names, groping blindly and counting each other by feel.
5. Any speculation on what such elves might represent, on a journey of personal development? What might it mean that these are “Wood-Elves”?
6. What does it mean for Bilbo to find himself driven by need to chase after vanishing fairy-feasts, getting more and more lost in the blind darkness?
7. In what sort of real life situations might a person find him or herself metaphorically “starving” and driven to “leave the path” at the risk of getting very “lost”? Is this a necessary part of growth, a terrible mistake best avoided, sometimes one or the other, or sometimes both at once?
The first time all of the dwarves rush onto the feast together, afraid of getting separated from each other, but they get separated anyway, and have the devil’s own time trying to find each other again.
8. Any thoughts on seeking safety in leaving the path with a group, only to find out that one bears the consequences alone no matter what?
The second time, they push Bilbo forward as the least frightening to elves, not asking whether Bilbo himself fears the elves. This time they find him last of all–unconscious, like Bombur.
9. Consider the stereotype that many fans have of elves as “angelic” and contrast this with Bilbo’s fear, as well as other indications throughout Tolkien’s writings (such as “The Silmarillion” and “Smith of Wooton Major” that elves/fairies are far from perfect and can, at times, legitimately be feared. What need might drive fans to perceive elves as more idealized than the writing warrants?
“Up the airy mountain
Down the rushing glen
We daren’t go a-hunting
For fear of little men...”
So begins a famous poem by William Allingham, titled, “The Fairies”.
10. How much should we fear contact with the Fair Folk? Not at all? With just enough fear to lend a healthy respect? Intensely? To the point where we don’t explore Faerie at all?
We finally receive a discussion of wood-elves, with surprisingly Silmarillion-compatible explanations of how they differ from other elves:
“The feasting people were Wood-elves, of course. They are not wicked folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning crafts in the making of beautiful and marvelous things, before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our sun and moon but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost. They dwelt most often by the edges of the woods, from which they could escape at times to ride or run over the open lands by moonlight or starlight; and after the coming of Men they took ever more and more to the gloaming and the dusk. Still, elves they were and remain, and that is Good People.”
11. Can you identify which tribes in the Silmarillion would correspond to a) Wood-elves, b) High-elves, c) Light-elves, d) Deep-elves, and e) Sea-elves? What might it mean symbolically to be a Wood-elf? (Bonus question: What might you call any other kinds of elves, in or out of Tolkien’s universe?)
12. What do you make of them being “more dangerous and less wise”?
13. “...elves they were and remain...” Why does Tolkien add on that “and remain”?
These are liminal creatures. (Liminal means on the border, or at the transition-point in any sense whatsoever, time, space, or what have you.) They linger in twilight, love best the stars (points of light in a dark sky) dwell on the edge of the forests (a “liminal ecology”) and cross over back and forth between forest and plains. Fairies and many other folkloric beings traditionally have a connection to liminal places, times, and states.
14. Why do you suppose this is? What might this liminal state mean psychologically? What role might these elves play in Bilbo’s growth? (Bonus)Any other comments on liminal states, in ecology, botany, or any other context?
15. Any idea, whether practical, literary, or symbolic, as to why Bilbo lost consciousness here just like Bombur did before in the enchanted creek?
The third time, lured irresistably by the greatest feast of all, the party runs out of luck completely. They become more and more scattered until Bilbo finds himself totally alone. In a sense, he’s even worse off than in the realm of the Goblin King, because there at least he had a tunnel to follow. With only one direction available, at least one need not wrack one’s brains trying to figure out what to do next. Instead, Bilbo has an excess of possibilities in every direction.
16. Consider the pluses and minuses of the utter freedom of utterly being lost. Comments?
17. I know this was a long one, but do you have any other thoughts on these elves, their feasts, their presence in Mirkwood, or anything related?
(I also invite pictures of wild and/or gothic elves or fairies that would seem right at home in Mirkwood, or anything else that people deem appropriate. Within size-guidelines, of course, and of a G or PG rated nature.)
And then, if that weren’t bad enough, Bilbo meets a spider...
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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squire
Gondolin
May 14 2009, 1:23am
Post #2 of 32
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There are elves, and then there's elves
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“At times they heard disquieting laughter. Sometimes there was singing in the distance, too. The laughter was the laughter of fair voices not of goblins, and the singing was beautiful, but it sounded eerie and strange, and they were not comforted, rather they hurried on from those parts with what strength they had left.”
1. Picture yourself in the dimness of Mirkwood, hungry, thirsty, weary, and desperate, hearing these things. Would you find them disquieting?
Your questions bring to the fore a massive disconnect that I have always had with this aspect of The Hobbit. Put simply, the elves in this book are one of the “perils of the road” for Bilbo and the Dwarves, and yet Tolkien insists that they are the same “good people” of Faerie that he has built his entire Silmarillion concept around.
How can the singing be “beautiful” and yet “eerie and strange”? It is a plain contradiction – “beautiful” music just doesn’t repel one, and to the degree that it does (“they hurried on”) then it is not beautiful!
2. Do you think that the same dark influence of the Necromancer’s Tower that has so mutated nature in Mirkwood has any effect on the elves who also dwell there, and hunt the mutant creatures in its depths, feasting on strange meat?
I’ve never been convinced that Mirkwood’s evil darkness is a symptom of the Necromancer’s influence. Gandalf says clearly that he lives to the south, and that his realm is to be avoided.
Mirkwood is dark and awful for its own reasons of drama – psychologically, Tolkien has constructed the forest as an underground tunnel. It is yet another of the “solar journeys” that are so prominent in his works: the hero travels underground and eastward, just as the Sun is thought to do at night. When he reappears in daylight at the east, having traversed a dark and terrifying path, his enlightenment is the same as that of the Sun rising once more. There are many clear parallels between Mirkwood in The Hobbit and Moria in The Lord of the Rings as it was being written, when the denouement in Mordor was expected to take place just a few chapters later (start with the two trees at the gate, and go from there).
Now, in the midst of all this horror, what in the world are Elves doing there? Being creepy, obviously. Yet his mythos won’t sustain truly creepy Elves, and so they are transformed into fairly nice folk within another half chapter. I don’t for a moment imagine the Elves, the ones that we soon meet in the King’s halls, as “hunting mutant creatures” and “feasting on strange meat”. How disgusting! Elves are not disgusting. Tolkien is stumbling badly here.
4. Does Tolkien ever remind us, in LotR, that Legolas is, in fact, a Mirkwood elf?
No, but he does try to correct his error in the beginning of LotR, by declaring that Mirkwood became the Greenwood after the Necromancer was driven away. Thus in that story Thranduil’s kingdom, and Legolas’ nature, has essentially nothing in common with this terrifying nightmare forest. (There’s no mention of Mirkwood becoming a nice place in the original text of The Hobbit, until the various post-LotR revisions kicked in.)
Another way of understanding Tolkien’s dilemma, and his almost unconscious attempts to solve it, came up in our discussion of his illustrations a few years ago. There we compared his picture of Mirkwood:
With his picture of the Elven King’s halls in the woods:
Clearly these are two completely separate forests – without even acknowledging that the first picture was reworked closely from an earlier version that pictured Turin in the “Mirkwood” of The Silmarillion!
The sooner we forget the idea of the Wood-Elves living in a nightmarish and claustrophobic vegetative darkness - and hunting eerie, foul-tasting, “mutant” (as you put it), and terrifying creatures - the easier it will be to place them in that precious paragraph about them being “good people” who just happen to be suspicious of strangers.
9. What need might drive fans to perceive elves as more idealized than the writing warrants?
I think the problem is that we don’t actually believe in folk-fairies the way the old storytellers did. So following Tolkien’s lead we reimagine them for the need at hand. We project onto them roughly the same qualities that others do with imagined extraterrestrials, and for the same reasons: Perfect bodies, angelic self-contentment, supernal wisdom, etc. “Angelic” is the key word, because it connotes the quasi-religious nature of this imaginative projection. We have always wanted gods to worship and emulate, and one of the prices we pay for taking up with a monotheistic all-powerful deity is that the old lesser polytheistic gods are gone. Yet we still need them, and so we invent them in many numerous ways. Not for nothing are the Valar and the Elves linked together in the Silmarillion in ways that Men never are.
The fairies of old – the elves of the poem you quote – are not such idealized man-gods, but rather capricious nature spirits. And like nature, they are not morally ideal, but morally neutral – both good and evil by the lights of whatever fate you take from meeting them.
10. How much should we fear contact with the Fair Folk?
The fear that men felt of elves, which Tolkien tries to recreate more in Lorien than anywhere else in his fiction, is the fear of losing one’s humanity by becoming elvish oneself. Once you visit Faerie, you are changed by the experience; returning to mortal land and life is fearsome or difficult, yet not being immortal one cannot stay in Faerie forever. The happy outcome is to internalize the new awareness and take it home with you; the unhappy outcome is to mourn the loss of the experience for the remainder of your life.
Tolkien wants the wood-Elves of The Hobbit to be more like these older Elves, and less like his Angelic beings from The Silmarillion, so that they can provide the proper “eerie beauty”, "dangerous" and scary behavior, etc. in Mirkwood. He tries to arrange this by saying these are the Elves that never visited Elvenhome and all that. But within just another chapter or two, they will be transformed into his good old, if slightly rustic and comic, Silmarillion angel-elves; and these new Elves will be fit to join the party in The Lord of the Rings, as well.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
May 14 2009, 3:16am
Post #3 of 32
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To your Mirkwood / Moria comparison
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...add a connection between Tolkien's descriptions of Khazad-dûm and those two Mirkwood pictures: Moria is more orderly at its eastern end. But as to your larger point: are the elves here, hunting the spiders on the marches of their kingdom, so very different from, say, Beleg warring with the enemy on the borders of Doriath?
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We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!
Join us May 11-17 for "Flies and Spiders".
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Curious
Gondolin
May 14 2009, 5:25am
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The elves of The Silmarillion and The Hobbit are not angelic.
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It's in LotR, I suggest, that elves for the first time become angelic.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 14 2009, 5:42am
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Awww, don't you like eerie, disturbing yet beautiful music? Then you had best avoid my Jango station, because I've got a lot of it on the playlist. And are the characters repelled of the music just because it frightens them? Was Ulysseus repelled by the sirens when he ordered his men to stop their ears with wax?
I think that the tension between the bright and dark in Faerie makes it what it is, neither angelic nor diabolical, yet something as potent as both. I like the dangerously beautiful, the beautifully dangerous, as my sig line states. The elves are more, for better and for worse.
Whenever Tolkien brings together opposites, he doesn't fail, he succeeds gloriously! It's the tension between conflicting traits that creates the stereoscopic depth of his stories.
I do love what you have to say about the solar journey. I wish I had thought of that!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Twit
Menegroth
May 14 2009, 1:53pm
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I fear I will now be dragging the intellectual level of conversation down a few notches...
1. Picture yourself in the dimness of Mirkwood, hungry, thirsty, weary, and desperate, hearing these things. Would you find them disquieting? If you agree, then what would you say makes these fair voices and this laughter so different from the singing and laughter of the elves who first welcomed the party to Rivendell? What do you expect from these elves, as opposed to those? If you disagree, then what do you think makes the dwarves and Bilbo see things differently?
The Elves singing in the LotR film in Lothlorien was beautiful and eery.
I would find these voices unnerving, even if common sense told me it was the Elves, and that they are Good People, in that particular setting, tired, hungry and frightened, anything could seem threatening. Also, from the perspective of the Dwarves, would coming across Elves possibly mean trouble?
2. Does the setting shape these elves, or would they be the same in a sunny field? Is the setting merely a context, or do you think it actually makes them different? Do you think that the same dark influence of the Necromancer’s Tower that has so mutated nature in Mirkwood has any effect on the elves who also dwell there, and hunt the mutant creatures in its depths, feasting on strange meat?
Perhaps the setting has shaped them to a point, it seems similar to the nature/nurture debate.
4. Would you have viewed Legolas differently if you had first encountered him as a voice or glimpse in Mirkwood? Might Peter Jackson have portrayed Legolas differently had he made “The Hobbit” first? Does Tolkien ever remind us, in LotR, that Legolas is, in fact, a Mirkwood elf?
I think I may have to read ahead to be able to answer this. Although it seems as though the Legolas portrayed in the film should perhaps have been made more distant, ambiguous even.
5. Any speculation on what such elves might represent, on a journey of personal development? What might it mean that these are “Wood-Elves”?
They are Elves, but not as we know them.
6. What does it mean for Bilbo to find himself driven by need to chase after vanishing fairy-feasts, getting more and more lost in the blind darkness?
It seems reminiscent of addiction, particularly drugs, you keep getting deeper and deeper trying to have the ultimate high.
8. Any thoughts on seeking safety in leaving the path with a group, only to find out that one bears the consequences alone no matter what
if we all follow, for good or bad reasons, the crowd, we will each be answerable for our own and the groups actions, despite having not specifically taken part.
9. Consider the stereotype that many fans have of elves as “angelic” and contrast this with Bilbo’s fear, as well as other indications throughout Tolkien’s writings (such as “The Silmarillion” and “Smith of Wooton Major” that elves/fairies are far from perfect and can, at times, legitimately be feared. What need might drive fans to perceive elves as more idealized than the writing warrants?
I suppose because they are a fantastical version of us, most of us would like to be more attractive, intelligent, able to live alongside nature, immortal and good in a fight. This makes us see them as 'better' than we are. Mostly the immortal thing though...
10. How much should we fear contact with the Fair Folk? Not at all? With just enough fear to lend a healthy respect? Intensely? To the point where we don’t explore Faerie at all?
We should respect them, because you just never know...
12. What do you make of them being “more dangerous and less wise”?
They just didn't go to university like the others, doesn't mean they're stupid, just less learned. Living where they do makes them more suspicious of strangers, therefore potentially more dangerous.
13. “...elves they were and remain...” Why does Tolkien add on that “and remain”?
they will carry on being Elves? They won't become mortal or human?
14. Why do you suppose this is? What might this liminal state mean psychologically? What role might these elves play in Bilbo’s growth? (Bonus)Any other comments on liminal states, in ecology, botany, or any other context?
It's just beyond our gaze, like a shadow you can see out of the corner of your eye, but when you turn to look, it's gone. Sometimes at night you can see an impression of clouds of stars in the corner of your eye, but trying to focus on them, they 'disappear'.
15. Any idea, whether practical, literary, or symbolic, as to why Bilbo lost consciousness here just like Bombur did before in the enchanted creek?
So he could rescue the Dwarves, use his sword.
16. Consider the pluses and minuses of the utter freedom of utterly being lost. Comments?
It depends on whether you mean to get lost and are prepared, or whether you have to get back.
17. I know this was a long one, but do you have any other thoughts on these elves, their feasts, their presence in Mirkwood, or anything related?
Not yet...
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 14 2009, 2:28pm
Post #7 of 32
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Far from dragging the intellectual level down, you are the first person to remember that dwarves have reason to fear elves.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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sador
Gondolin
May 14 2009, 3:31pm
Post #8 of 32
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1. Picture yourself in the dimness of Mirkwood, hungry, thirsty, weary, and desperate, hearing these things. Would you find them disquieting?
Yes, probably. They are unearthy and spooky.
If you agree, then what would you say makes these fair voices and this laughter so different from the singing and laughter of the elves who first welcomed the party to Rivendell?
The elves in Mirkwood didn't welcome the party. They were going on thier own business, and only added in passing to the unearthliness of the atmosphere.
What do you expect from these elves, as opposed to those?
Did I first connect them to elves? Probably not.
There is nothing vaguely similar to elves in Jewish cultural heritage. All the translators of Tolkien have struggled with the issue, as the only words the could come up with were quite demoniac; so the either used them, or a variation on the word 'elf'. The new translation tries to give the word a Hebraic sound, and gives a long, convoluted justification to it in his introduction to LotR. I guess the true reason for this throwing of the towel is that most new readers already know the movies, or a lot about them - so they are already used to the idea of a foriegn word for this race, and are familiar with what it sounds like.
So anyway, I doubt that I recognised them as elves before Tolkien gave the condensed story about the Faerie later in this chapter.
If you disagree, then what do you think makes the dwarves and Bilbo see things differently?
The dwarves are naturally distrustful of elves.
But Bilbo really should have known better!
However, as he admits later - he is afraid of them. They are wild.
2. Does the setting shape these elves, or would they be the same in a sunny field? Is the setting merely a context, or do you think it actually makes them different?
Over thousands of years? It definitely is a symbiotic process.
Remember what Sam said to Frodo about the elves of Lothlorien.
Do you think that the same dark influence of the Necromancer’s Tower that has so mutated nature in Mirkwood has any effect on the elves who also dwell there, and hunt the mutant creatures in its depths, feasting on strange meat?
Yes; but why strange meat? Because some people assume elves are vegeterrian?
3. Bonus question: Might this part of Mirkwood bear any resemblance to that land of madness between Doriath and the realms of Morgoth that Beren crossed?
In the Silmarillion, Beren is only mentioned as crossing Ungoliant's abode - Nan Dungotheb I think it was called, but I haven't read that chapter for ages.
I suppose you refer to something from HoME. I'll be qualified to answer that in several months' time.
4. Would you have viewed Legolas differently if you had first encountered him as a voice or glimpse in Mirkwood?
We don't encounter anyone as a voice in Mirkwood.
But movie-firster do encounter someone as a fey voice first - Galadriel. I don't think purists approved of that; I didn't really enjoy it - but I didn't really mind.
Might Peter Jackson have portrayed Legolas differently had he made “The Hobbit” first?
Wrong question. Rephrase:
Might Orlando Bloom have portrayed Legolas differently had he read “The Hobbit” first?
I want to think so. Let's give him the benefit of doubt!
Does Tolkien ever remind us, in LotR, that Legolas is, in fact, a Mirkwood elf?
Yes, when discussing Lothlorien and Fangorn.
But never, as far as I remember, in the context of Mirkwood the Great and Terrible.
5. Any speculation on what such elves might represent, on a journey of personal development? What might it mean that these are “Wood-Elves”?
Well, the only theory I know in this respect is Shippey's theory about the myth of forsets as this world, with its own beauty and allure, but shielding the true light.
So these elves might be those spiritual people, who still love this world and have no interest in the Great Beyond (note the wood-elves never went to the Faerie). Such folk are alluring - they promise you feasts and entertainment (panem et circenses?), but only lead you astray from your path, leaving you an easy prey to the monsters of the forest.
As Curious mentioned, it turns out this was the right path at the end of the day. But I still suppose the swamps were better than the spiders.
6. What does it mean for Bilbo to find himself driven by need to chase after vanishing fairy-feasts, getting more and more lost in the blind darkness?
He symbolises the sin of gluttony (as far as a starving person can). But it is still in the venial stage.
7. In what sort of real life situations might a person find him or herself metaphorically “starving” and driven to “leave the path” at the risk of getting very “lost”?
The most pathetic case is feeling forlorn, and needing love.
Is this a necessary part of growth, a terrible mistake best avoided, sometimes one or the other, or sometimes both at once?
It can become a chance of growth, but to get out of it you need a special grace.
Like Bunyan had (although as a good Catholic, Tolkien would have disapproved of my example).
8. Any thoughts on seeking safety in leaving the path with a group, only to find out that one bears the consequences alone no matter what?
Nice! I like the metaphor.
It often happens to young people. Young people experiment a lot, but usually start with a supposrt-group of other younsters. And all of a sudden the experiment is yours and yours alone.
9. Consider the stereotype that many fans have of elves as “angelic” and contrast this with Bilbo’s fear, as well as other indications throughout Tolkien’s writings (such as “The Silmarillion” and “Smith of Wooton Major” that elves/fairies are far from perfect and can, at times, legitimately be feared. What need might drive fans to perceive elves as more idealized than the writing warrants?
You mean, not to realise how close Galadriel was to forcing Frodo to give her the Ring?
10. How much should we fear contact with the Fair Folk? Not at all? With just enough fear to lend a healthy respect? Intensely? To the point where we don’t explore Faerie at all?
I'll leave this unanswered.
As I've mentioned in answer no. 1, the belief in elves is not a part of my mental landscape; for me they exist in Tolkien's Middle-Earth, and only there (I know your landscape is different).
So any answer by me to this would be wrong.
I'll try to get around to the rest of your questions tomorrow.
"Don't start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you." - Thorin
(This post was edited by sador on May 14 2009, 3:33pm)
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sador
Gondolin
May 14 2009, 3:44pm
Post #9 of 32
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Not very long ago I was frequently apologising for being new and impertinent, not knowing HoME or most of the eminent critics, not realising things which were obvious to others, etc.
With time, I got over it.
I'm not saying you should get over it (such a patronising thing to say!), only that with time you will.
And so far - your contributions have been great and welcome.
"Don't start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you." - Thorin
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 14 2009, 5:01pm
Post #10 of 32
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I don't think of elves as vegetarian, because they seem to enjoy hunting a lot. (Beren, Bombadil, and Beorn were all vegetarians, but other characters seemed to enjoy a hearty roast now and then.) But what piqued my interest is that the animals in Mirkwood seem to be different. They have turned black, for the most part, and Beorn describes their meat as bitter (although why a vegetarian like him would know or care, I do not know.) Plainly this mutation seems to have come from the dark spell upon Mirkwood. I wondered about the effects on the elves of hunting in this woods, because LotR mentions Sauron nourishing the Fell Beasts on "fell meats".
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 14 2009, 6:19pm
Post #11 of 32
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‘Who knows? Smeagol doesn't know', answered Gollum. 'You cannot reach them, you cannot touch them. We tried once, yes, precious. I tried once; but you cannot reach them. Only shapes to see, perhaps, not to touch. No precious! All dead.'
-The Passage of the Marshes
1. Picture yourself in the dimness of Mirkwood, hungry, thirsty, weary, and desperate, hearing these things. Would you find them disquieting?
I do, especially since when I hear them I can’t track them down. (I supposedly have Musical Ear Syndrome.)
If you agree, then what would you say makes these fair voices and this laughter so different from the singing and laughter of the elves who first welcomed the party to Rivendell?
It’s like the difference between the obnoxiously loud music of the party you’re at, versus the obnoxiously loud music of the party next door.
What do you expect from these elves, as opposed to those?
To be ignored.
2. Does the setting shape these elves, or would they be the same in a sunny field?
They are definitely otherworldly. They are happy, comfortable, and feasting while in the very same forest our heroes are scared, miserable, and starving. Two entirely different worlds sharing the same space and time.
Is the setting merely a context, or do you think it actually makes them different?
Context always matters.
Do you think that the same dark influence of the Necromancer’s Tower that has so mutated nature in Mirkwood has any effect on the elves who also dwell there, and hunt the mutant creatures in its depths, feasting on strange meat?
Upon its outer marges under the westward mountains Mordor was a dying land, but it was not yet dead. And here things still grew, harsh, twisted, bitter, struggling for life. In the glens of the Morgai on the other side of the valley low scrubby trees lurked and clung, coarse grey grass-tussocks fought with the stones, and withered mosses crawled on them; and everywhere great writhing, tangled brambles sprawled. Some had long stabbing thorns, some hooked barbs that rent like knives. The sullen shrivelled leaves of a past year hung on them, grating and rattling in the sad airs, but their maggot-ridden buds were only just opening.
-The Land of Shadow
3. Bonus question: Might this part of Mirkwood bear any resemblance to that land of madness between Doriath and the realms of Morgoth that Beren crossed?
Yep.
4. Would you have viewed Legolas differently if you had first encountered him as a voice or glimpse in Mirkwood?
As Gloin himself later comments, the Elves of Mirkwood in LOTR are much kinder than those in The Hobbit.
Might Peter Jackson have portrayed Legolas differently had he made “The Hobbit” first?
Possibily, though WETA did seem to have already had ideas about the difference between the various elves.
Does Tolkien ever remind us, in LotR, that Legolas is, in fact, a Mirkwood elf?
There was also a strange Elf clad in green and brown, Legolas, a messenger from his father, Thranduil, the King of the Elves of Northern Mirkwood.
-The Council of Elrond.
I've always wondered exactly what was “strange” about him.
Just when Bombur gives up, the dwarves see “a red twinkle in the dark.”
Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt. The Elves all burst into song. Suddenly under the trees a fire sprang up with a red light.
-Three is Company
We have already learned the dangers of approaching strange fires in the wild, and the dwarves haven’t forgotten their lesson with the trolls, either, and additionally, they’ve been warned that if ever they leave the path they won’t find their way back on it again, but hunger is a strong persuader. After much debate (during which Bombur and Bilbo sided together on behalf of throwing caution to the wind, starvation being fairly certain if they did not) they resolve to check out the fires.
And lo and behold, they find the fairy-feasts that Bombur dreamed about! Mysterious, enticing glimpses caught from a distance through trees, vanishing the moment they enter the clearing, only to suddenly pop up elsewhere. Three times this happens, each time drawing the dwarves further into the woods and leaving still more lost. Whenever the firelight vanishes, they’re left in such total dark that they have to find each other by calling out names, groping blindly and counting each other by feel.
'Yes, they are all round us,' he whispered. 'The tricksy lights. Candles of corpses, yes, yes. Don't you heed them! Don't look! Don't follow them!’
-The Passage of the Marshes
5. Any speculation on what such elves might represent, on a journey of personal development?
The Other. One can cede control of one’s journey to Others, in which case one may be taken prisoner and placed in a prison of the Others’ choosing.
What might it mean that these are “Wood-Elves”?
“Into The Woods”. See Bruno Bettelheim’s The Uses of Enchantment.
6. What does it mean for Bilbo to find himself driven by need to chase after vanishing fairy-feasts, getting more and more lost in the blind darkness?
“If you don’t watch where you’re going you’ll end up someplace else.”
-Yogi Berra
7. In what sort of real life situations might a person find him or herself metaphorically “starving” and driven to “leave the path” at the risk of getting very “lost”?
Starving artists that give in to the establishment:
“Sonny, never thought we’d see you here again."
"I’m not exactly thrilled to be here."
"Yeah, you said this place made you crazy."
"I decided I’d rather be crazy than hungry,"
-Xanadu (1980)
Is this a necessary part of growth, a terrible mistake best avoided, sometimes one or the other, or sometimes both at once?
Two steps forward, one step back.
The first time all of the dwarves rush onto the feast together, afraid of getting separated from each other, but they get separated anyway, and have the devil’s own time trying to find each other again.
8. Any thoughts on seeking safety in leaving the path with a group, only to find out that one bears the consequences alone no matter what?
“If all the other children jumped off a cliff would you jump off it too?”
-Mrs. MacFadden, 2nd grade
The second time, they push Bilbo forward as the least frightening to elves, not asking whether Bilbo himself fears the elves. This time they find him last of all–unconscious, like Bombur.
9. Consider the stereotype that many fans have of elves as “angelic” and contrast this with Bilbo’s fear, as well as other indications throughout Tolkien’s writings (such as “The Silmarillion” and “Smith of Wooton Major” that elves/fairies are far from perfect and can, at times, legitimately be feared. What need might drive fans to perceive elves as more idealized than the writing warrants?
They also tend to see them as emotionless Vulcans.
“Up the airy mountain
Down the rushing glen
We daren’t go a-hunting
For fear of little men...”
So begins a famous poem by William Allingham, titled, “The Fairies”.
10. How much should we fear contact with the Fair Folk? Not at all? With just enough fear to lend a healthy respect? Intensely? To the point where we don’t explore Faerie at all?
To the same degree that we fear being changed and losing respectability.
People have a deep instinct to fit in with the crowd. And if they don’t fit in they have a desire to be accepted all the more.
11. Can you identify which tribes in the Silmarillion would correspond to a) Wood-elves, b) High-elves, c) Light-elves, d) Deep-elves, and e) Sea-elves?
Nope.
What might it mean symbolically to be a Wood-elf?
Very sad. Like Rita Hayworth said “Men go to bed with a symbol and wake up with me.”
(Bonus question: What might you call any other kinds of elves, in or out of Tolkien’s universe?)
IIRC, there’s also Green-elves and Dark-elves.
12. What do you make of them being “more dangerous and less wise”?
That’s usually the way of things. Stupid people are dangerous. Stupid smart people are the worst.
13. “...elves they were and remain...” Why does Tolkien add on that “and remain”?
They’re still Elves.
These are liminal creatures. (Liminal means on the border, or at the transition-point in any sense whatsoever, time, space, or what have you.) They linger in twilight, love best the stars (points of light in a dark sky) dwell on the edge of the forests (a “liminal ecology”) and cross over back and forth between forest and plains. Fairies and many other folkloric beings traditionally have a connection to liminal places, times, and states.
14. Why do you suppose this is?
The Other-world cannot exist without the World. The Shadow-self cannot exist without the Self.
And as I pointed out, venturing over the boundary is how Bambi’s mom died.
What might this liminal state mean psychologically?
Going over the edge.
What role might these elves play in Bilbo’s growth?
To show that the mysterious angelic elves are just as mundane in their greed and intolerance as the rest of us. Shrink them a couple of feet and put beards on them and how much really different are they from Dwarves?
(Bonus)Any other comments on liminal states, in ecology, botany, or any other context?
In chemistry the liminal boundaries of the phases of a substance change with pressure, temperature, and volume.
15. Any idea, whether practical, literary, or symbolic, as to why Bilbo lost consciousness here just like Bombur did before in the enchanted creek?
Getting sapped by a sneaky elf can lay you out for a looooong time.
Look at Rip Van Winkle. Luckily Bilbo didn’t end up sleeping a hundred years.
16. Consider the pluses and minuses of the utter freedom of utterly being lost. Comments?
This reminds me of a first semester calculus problem: One is kidnapped, rendered unconscious, then wakes up alone in a house at the center of a hub of an infinite number of roads in all directions. Question: What’s the shortest route home?
17. I know this was a long one, but do you have any other thoughts on these elves, their feasts, their presence in Mirkwood, or anything related?
Would Aragorn be more familiar with the Elves of Mirkwood? Is he closer to Thranduil or Galadriel?
(I also invite pictures of wild and/or gothic elves or fairies that would seem right at home in Mirkwood, or anything else that people deem appropriate. Within size-guidelines, of course, and of a G or PG rated nature.)
.....\ \ .......... ^.......
....(>'o')> # <('o'<)...
“No, you stiff-necked Dwarf, you cannot have my waffle!”
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 14 2009, 7:41pm
Post #12 of 32
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I especially like the point about the dangers of letting others make the decisions in your life.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
May 14 2009, 9:49pm
Post #13 of 32
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that the Mirkwood Elves are dangerous and worthy of the fear that they inspire only because we mortals have ourselves forgotten how to be Elvish, rather than the risk that Squire suggests, that we may lose our humanity to become like them. But I have to agree: there are creepy Elves in Tolkien, but these are not of the House of Fëanor.
The paleobotanist is back!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 14 2009, 10:36pm
Post #14 of 32
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...for different people. Yet I personally feel most inclined to your answer.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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sador
Gondolin
May 15 2009, 7:23am
Post #15 of 32
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But all the animals they tried were on the other side of the river! //
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"Don't start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you." - Thorin
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sador
Gondolin
May 15 2009, 8:13am
Post #16 of 32
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A few answers (second installment)
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And there are two more already! When we do The Silmarillion, remember to pick "On Men".
Though I say it as shouldn't, you may think - Strider, 'At the sign of the Prancing Pony'
11. Can you identify which tribes in the Silmarillion would correspond to a) Wood-elves, b) High-elves, c) Light-elves, d) Deep-elves, and e) Sea-elves?
Is this a riddle?
a) Moriquendi - actually Avari, but I suppose Tolkien meant them at first to be Sindarin. b) Calaquendi (note that the Sindar are considered to be Eldar, but not Calaquendi - which is the point of Caranthir's dismissal of Thingol, when answering his nessage). c) Vanyar (although Calaquendi is a more exact translation). d) Gnomes - o.k., let's call them Noldor. e) Teleri.
Should we believe Darkstone saying he doesn't know, when he added the Nandor and Avari just like that?
What might it mean symbolically to be a Wood-elf?
"I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay
I sleep all night and I work all day”
Bonus question: What might you call any other kinds of elves, in or out of Tolkien’s universe?
If I was an orc, I would probably call them 'filthy rebels'.
12. What do you make of them being “more dangerous and less wise”?
It remonds me of Saruman, after he broke white light to find the colours which make it.
I'm not quite sure what this means.
13. “...elves they were and remain...” Why does Tolkien add on that “and remain”?
They were elves when refusing to go to the Faerie, and remain elves at the time of the story, three ages after.
14. Why do you suppose this is?
"Their beginnings lie back in the Good Old Days when the planet was populated with the king of colorful creatures you have to drink a quart of Old Overcoat to see nowadays.”
- Bored of the Rings, Foreword
What might this liminal state mean psychologically?
Bilbo is holding his last pint of OO.
What role might these elves play in Bilbo’s growth?
He eats - after a long period of starving!
(Bonus)Any other comments on liminal states, in ecology, botany, or any other context?
Serious comments?
Well, not much - only an apology if you found my previous answers offensive. (I don't think you did, but you can never know)
15. Any idea, whether practical, literary, or symbolic, as to why Bilbo lost consciousness here just like Bombur did before in the enchanted creek?
The circle of light of the elvish fires, is a borderline - just like the river was.
16. Consider the pluses and minuses of the utter freedom of utterly being lost. Comments?
If you feel you are utterly lost, you feel helpless, not free.
17. I know this was a long one, but do you have any other thoughts on these elves, their feasts, their presence in Mirkwood, or anything related?
It is wierd that when Bombur wakes up, he waxes poetic about the woodland king, the light and music and song - only then turning to the food.
While Bilbo only grumbles about having a gorgeous dinner; add to which the first time, nobody had any dream-feats, and we do not know about Thorin in the last time - although he did fall like a stone.
What may that mean?
"Don't start grumbling against orders, or something bad will happen to you." - Thorin
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
May 15 2009, 1:04pm
Post #17 of 32
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1. Picture yourself in the dimness of Mirkwood, hungry, thirsty, weary, and desperate, hearing these things. Would you find them disquieting? If you agree, then what would you say makes these fair voices and this laughter so different from the singing and laughter of the elves who first welcomed the party to Rivendell? What do you expect from these elves, as opposed to those? If you disagree, then what do you think makes the dwarves and Bilbo see things differently?
I doubt if I would have found the songs themselves disquieting. Rather, the fact that there was someone I didn’t know nearby might worry me. Regarding the differences between Rivendell and Wood-Elves, I’ve always imagined the Rivendell Elves singing rehearsed, lilting songs in a major key, in parts, in 6/8 time, with an allegro tempo. Many people associate major keys and all the rest of that with happiness (though songs in major keys can make you sad). Perhaps the Mirkwood Elves have different musical traditions than the Rivendell Elves. For one thing, I don’t imagine they’ve developed the sophistication of harmony. I imagine unison group singing, somewhat improvised, with something like a recorder. If I were Bilbo or a Dwarf and didn’t recognize the style as being like anything else I’d heard it might occur to me to worry about the unknown. In other words, it's not so much the qualities inherent in the music as the fact that they've never encountered it before. Also, if I were an impressionable Hobbit or Dwarf and the Elves were singing in some strange mode it might creep me out (but I'm not).
2. Does the setting shape these elves, or would they be the same in a sunny field? Is the setting merely a context, or do you think it actually makes them different? Do you think that the same dark influence of the Necromancer’s Tower that has so mutated nature in Mirkwood has any effect on the elves who also dwell there, and hunt the mutant creatures in its depths, feasting on strange meat?
I’m torn between viewing these dark Elves as preferring the twilight of the trees and therefore settling there or, on the other hand, having settled there long ago and just enduring the darkness. In any case I can’t see the corruption of the forest influencing the Good People. I also don’t think the Elves would eat anything unwholesome. It’s unclear whether they hunt the deer for food or because they’re evil, but if it’s for food I doubt it harms them. Elves are too smart about nature for that.
3. Bonus question: Might this part of Mirkwood bear any resemblance to that land of madness between Doriath and the realms of Morgoth that Beren crossed?
In a way. Tolkien does like to recycle elements of his stories. The evil place north of Doriath exists because of the conflicting enchantments of Morgoth and Melian. There’s no Melian element in Mirkwood. I think. Although, now that I think about it, perhaps Thranduil had a Girdle of Enchantment®, too.
4. Would you have viewed Legolas differently if you had first encountered him as a voice or glimpse in Mirkwood?
I don’t think Tolkien would have included Legolas on the Ring quest if he had taken part in the events that happen to our friends in The Hobbit. The reason Gimli and Legolas get along at all is that they didn’t apparently have any involvement in it. If Elrond had appointed Glóin and Thranduil to the Fellowship, well, let’s just say we might have some beard and hair pulling.
Might Peter Jackson have portrayed Legolas differently had he made “The Hobbit” first?
One hopes PJ wouldn’t include Legolas in The Hobbit at all, no matter the order of filming.
Does Tolkien ever remind us, in LotR, that Legolas is, in fact, a Mirkwood elf?
I recall Legolas saying something about his kin in that forest, probably when the Fellowship enters Lórien and he doesn’t understand the language of the Galadhrim.
Just when Bombur gives up, the dwarves see “a red twinkle in the dark.” We have already learned the dangers of approaching strange fires in the wild, and the dwarves haven’t forgotten their lesson with the trolls, either, and additionally, they’ve been warned that if ever they leave the path they won’t find their way back on it again, but hunger is a strong persuader. After much debate (during which Bombur and Bilbo sided together on behalf of throwing caution to the wind, starvation being fairly certain if they did not) they resolve to check out the fires.
And lo and behold, they find the fairy-feasts that Bombur dreamed about! Mysterious, enticing glimpses caught from a distance through trees, vanishing the moment they enter the clearing, only to suddenly pop up elsewhere. Three times this happens, each time drawing the dwarves further into the woods and leaving still more lost. Whenever the firelight vanishes, they’re left in such total dark that they have to find each other by calling out names, groping blindly and counting each other by feel.
5. Any speculation on what such elves might represent, on a journey of personal development?
These Elves are erasing Bilbo’s preconceptions of how such creatures behave.
What might it mean that these are “Wood-Elves”?
To the first-time reader of Tolkien, it simply means they live in the woods, as opposed to Rivendell where the Elves live in a valley. To people familiar with the sundering of the Elves, though, I think this means they are Sylvan or Sindar. I always get those two confused. Anyway, they’re not Elves that went over the Sea and so aren’t as refined.
6. What does it mean for Bilbo to find himself driven by need to chase after vanishing fairy-feasts, getting more and more lost in the blind darkness?
It means that he’s hungry and losing focus.
7. In what sort of real life situations might a person find him or herself metaphorically “starving” and driven to “leave the path” at the risk of getting very “lost”?
Well, there was that bad decision I made to take that job last fall. It sounded good, but a risk always exists that it’s not what you think it’ll be like. As for getting “lost”, trying to find work elsewhere after that in this economy was dicey.
Is this a necessary part of growth, a terrible mistake best avoided, sometimes one or the other, or sometimes both at once?
I’m sure it’s nearly universal, although I don’t view it as necessary.
The first time all of the dwarves rush onto the feast together, afraid of getting separated from each other, but they get separated anyway, and have the devil’s own time trying to find each other again.
8. Any thoughts on seeking safety in leaving the path with a group, only to find out that one bears the consequences alone no matter what?
Well, there’s all that spending the Obama fans are encouraging. They'll have to bear the consequences of paying for it in the form of inflation, taxation, and even higher debt. (Unfortunately, they won't be the only ones.)
9. Consider the stereotype that many fans have of elves as “angelic” and contrast this with Bilbo’s fear, as well as other indications throughout Tolkien’s writings (such as “The Silmarillion” and “Smith of Wooton Major” that elves/fairies are far from perfect and can, at times, legitimately be feared. What need might drive fans to perceive elves as more idealized than the writing warrants?
No idea.
10. How much should we fear contact with the Fair Folk? Not at all? With just enough fear to lend a healthy respect? Intensely? To the point where we don’t explore Faerie at all?
Well, they don’t exist in my realm so I fear them not.
11. Can you identify which tribes in the Silmarillion would correspond to a) Wood-elves, b) High-elves, c) Light-elves, d) Deep-elves, and e) Sea-elves?
That was a surprising paragraph. Okay, let’s see. The last time I read The Sil I didn’t know there was going to be a test!
a) Wood-elves = Silvan Elves
b) High-elves = Caliquendi
c) Light-elves = Vanyar
d) Deep-elves = Noldor
e) Sea-elves = Teleri
What might it mean symbolically to be a Wood-elf?
I don’t know what it would mean symbolically, but it sounds like it would involve lots of cookouts and spider killings. Which reminds me, I really must get UT to dispose of that horrid dead brown spider in the bathroom.
(Bonus question: What might you call any other kinds of elves, in or out of Tolkien’s universe?)
Definitely not Tomnoddy.
12. What do you make of them being “more dangerous and less wise”?
Stereotypical country cousins. *sigh*
13. “...elves they were and remain...” Why does Tolkien add on that “and remain”?
He wants us to think or at least imagine that they’re still around.
These are liminal creatures. (Liminal means on the border, or at the transition-point in any sense whatsoever, time, space, or what have you.) They linger in twilight, love best the stars (points of light in a dark sky) dwell on the edge of the forests (a “liminal ecology”) and cross over back and forth between forest and plains. Fairies and many other folkloric beings traditionally have a connection to liminal places, times, and states.
14. Why do you suppose this is?
Well, that’s the state of the environment in which they awoke and probably how Eru designed them to live so they prefer it. Magic seems associated with twilight a lot, probably because failing light makes trickery easier. Practically, living on the edge of two worlds means more variety for them.
What might this liminal state mean psychologically?
They’re wishy-washy? :o)~
What role might these elves play in Bilbo’s growth?
They’ll provide him with the challenge of extricating the Dwarves from prison.
15. Any idea, whether practical, literary, or symbolic, as to why Bilbo lost consciousness here just like Bombur did before in the enchanted creek?
Self-defense (and maybe just a little spite) by the Elves.
16. Consider the pluses and minuses of the utter freedom of utterly being lost. Comments?
Paradoxically, it limits your reasonable choices. Above all you want to find the path.
17. I know this was a long one, but do you have any other thoughts on these elves, their feasts, their presence in Mirkwood, or anything related?
I can’t help wondering if the Elves weren’t teasing and were actually luring the Dwarves and Bilbo on and drawing them away from the path.
(I also invite pictures of wild and/or gothic elves or fairies that would seem right at home in Mirkwood, or anything else that people deem appropriate. Within size-guidelines, of course,…
*scurries off to Ezpeleta site*
and of a G or PG rated nature.)
Rats.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 15 2009, 3:32pm
Post #18 of 32
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I had missed that. When I wrote up the questions you folks had not yet introduced me to the idea that the Enchanted Creek was the border of Thranduil's kingdom. Now I won't worry so much about magic-poisoned elves.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 15 2009, 3:36pm
Post #19 of 32
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If you drop by Fiesta Friday, tell them that your nip of Old Overcoat is on me.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 15 2009, 3:44pm
Post #20 of 32
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I like your observation on the paradox of being lost.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 16 2009, 1:31pm
Post #21 of 32
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That is precisely what the Elvish singing is - good adjective!
After the adventures with the goblins, Gollum, wargs, and Beorn, we tend to forget that it was stated earlier that Dwarves "don't get on well" with Elves; so yes, in their current state, that noise is not "music to their ears"!
(By the way - don't worry about "dragging down" the intellectual level in here: I'm preparing another chapter "discussion" for Bored of the Rings (squire and I torment this Room with those on occasion). Now that's a "dragging down"!  )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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May 16 2009, 2:25pm
Post #23 of 32
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Dernwyn rolled her eyes heavenward.
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It was going to be a long chapter.
(Especially when we get to the, ah, poetry...)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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May 16 2009, 2:41pm
Post #24 of 32
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Interesting analogy to Saruman!
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The implication is that these Elves would tend to be more impulsive - more apt to break things to find out about them, to "shoot first and ask questions after" - than the Eldar.
And their reactions when the Dwarves attempt to crash their feasts does support this! Why not just order some guards to immediately surround the obviously helpless "intruders", and question them then and there? Why the kick-out-the-lights-and-perform-a-disappearing-act? They're as paranoid as that Goblin king!
Maybe they need to replace their wine with Old Overcoat...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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May 16 2009, 2:47pm
Post #25 of 32
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Girdle, indeed! Now I'm going to be imagining Thranduil wearing one of those laced-up waist-huggers like Elrond's in the movies!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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