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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 24 2009, 6:38pm
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Speculation about the "five or six" dwarves and their "quite interesting relationships" with Bilbo.
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This quote from the Empire Magazine article in the thread below caught my eye and my interest:
Empire: How are you going to handle the dwarves, many of whom aren't fleshed out in the book?
Del Toro: There is a very specific function that Gimli had in the trilogy. And technically and expressively, the dwarves in The Hobbit serve another. They have to become valiant, brave, sometimes funny - and yes, all of those were in Gimli, but there are moments in which the dwarves have to be tragic, or they have to be incredibly moving. Those dwarves, physically and dramatically, will work like three-dimensional characters that will as soon make you laugh as they will make you fear for their lives, or they will move you. Hopefully to tears, in some instances...
Jackson: We're going to choose five or six, pretty similar to the ones that Tolkien spends a bit more time on in the book, and develop some quite interesting relationships between them and Bilbo. We don't want them to be just Thorin plus 12 comedic sidekicks.
First of all, who are the five or six Tolkien spends time on in the book, and what does he say about them? For that we have hard evidence. From memory I would say Thorin, of course, Bombur, Balin, Dori, and Fili and Kili.
In the book Thorin is pompous and self-important, comically so through most of the book, and tragically so in the end, but he pays for it with his life, and learns his lesson on his deathbed when he reconciles with Bilbo. To his credit, Thorin is the best fighter in the party other than Gandalf.
Bombur is also a good fighter, surprisingly, as I discovered when we discussed the encounter with the trolls in the Reading Room. And Bombur is strong enough that he helps carry Bilbo through the goblin tunnels. But of course he is also the fattest of the hobbits, so I see him as something like a football lineman, both strong and fat. Bombur is also a complainer, which becomes especially apparent in Mirkwood.
Balin is particularly friendly with Bilbo, and seem like the most reasonable of the dwarves, but of course he has his own tragic ending in LotR, similar to Thrain's or Thorin's. I don't know how much they will forshadow Balin's future. Balin is the second-oldest dwarf, next to Thorin, and speaks for the party when Thorin is not available. But Balin is also the usual look-out man for the party, which is a bit strange since Fili and Kili may have sharper eyes, but perhaps they are already the designated scouts. Balin is the only dwarf who volunteers to accompany Bilbo down the tunnel to Smaug, and the only dwarf who definitely visited Bilbo after the adventure. Balin is also abused a bit by Bilbo, who sneaks by him wearing the Ring but does not, at first, reveal how he did it.
Dori is the strongest of the dwarves, and also one of the most decent. He volunteers to carry Bilbo in the goblin tunnels, then Bilbo grabs his legs when the eagles rescue them. Dori also gets out of the tree when the wargs are coming and boosts Bilbo up into the tree quite patiently.
Fili and Kili are the youngest and sharpest-eyed dwarves, acting as scouts when Bilbo does not. I don't remember much difference between them, except that Fili has a particularly long nose which sticks out when the spiders wrap him up and allows him to breath. Fili and Kili both die in the Battle of Five Armies, so adding depth to their characters would also add to the impact of their deaths.
So those are the six dwarves I see as most developed in the book. Just for completeness, the others are Bifur and Bofur, Bombur's brothers; Dwalin, Balin's brother; Oin and Gloin, the best firestarters, and also uncle and father, respectively, of Gimli from LotR; and Ori, Dori's brother, who also died in Moria as one of Balin's party. The only one I could see developed would be Gloin, and only because of his role in LotR. He and his brother don't play much of a role in The Hobbit. Maybe something could foreshadow Ori's death as well.
I think one of the most successful changes to LotR, from my point of view, was the more sympathetic treatment of Boromir. With just a few touches, like the scene where he is teaching swordfighting to Merry and Pippin, Jackson made Boromir's death more moving. I can see the same sort of touches for the dwarves, which would make their deaths more moving. Del Toro could even foreshadow the death of Balin and Ori in Moria. Just a scene of Balin and Ori dreaming of such an expedition, and Gandalf warning against it, could be enough.
Even though Del Toro and Jackson are discussing changes from the book, I'm excited to see what they do with the story. I've never been as attached to The Hobbit as I am to LotR. On the other hand, I'm a little concerned that they might stray too far away from Bilbo. Bilbo should remain the central character of the story, much more so even than the four hobbit heroes in LotR. Gandalf should be the second most important, and his role will be expanded, evidentally, in the movies. But I don't think the role of the dwarves needs to be expanded; they just need a few touches to make some of them individuals with whom we sympathize, so that their imprisonment by the elves; the madness of Thorin; the death of Thorin, Fili, and Kili; and perhaps even the foreshadowed death of Balin and Ori will hit home.
(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 24 2009, 6:41pm)
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Apr 24 2009, 7:01pm
Post #2 of 35
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Will The Hobbit redeem Durin's Folk?
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Many people were upset with the use of Gimli as (sometimes crude) comic relief. Perhaps DT and PJ will remedy that to some extent? Ironic, in that they pretty much ARE comic relief in the Hobbit...
But I agree with your assessment of which dwarves would be expanded based on the BAW (Book As Written).
Notta
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Alientraveller
Lorien
Apr 24 2009, 7:13pm
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When I read that, I immediately thought about Balin and how the last scene of the novel could be used to foreshadow FOTR: having recaptured Erebor, Balin expresses hope in reclaiming Moria, something Gandalf would be wary about.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 24 2009, 7:23pm
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I see the book version of Gimli as, in many ways, Tolkien atoning for making the dwarves so comical in LotR. Now Jackson and del Toro, by making the dwarves in The Hobbit less ridiculous and more profound, could be doing the same thing in reverse, atoning for making Gimli so comical in the movie version of LotR!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 24 2009, 7:28pm
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...die off-screen? In the books, their deaths are described in just two sentences:
Of the twelve companions of Thorin, ten remained. Fili and Kili had fallen defending him with shield and body, for he was their mothers eldest brother.
Is this another case where a book tells what would be shown on screen? Or is it deliberate understatement by Tolkien, whose effect can be captured on screen? (Should it be?) If the films develop the characters of Fili and Kili as you suggest, could their deaths be movingly conveyed in one matter-of-fact line of dialogue after the fact?
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 24 2009, 7:57pm
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If they are going to be more important characters,
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then it seems likely that their deaths would become more important as well. Their deaths are not movingly portrayed in the book, and could not, I judge, be movingly portrayed in one line of dialogue.
That doesn't necessarily mean they need to die on screen in full bloody detail either. We could have the joy of victory, followed by the discovery that war has a terrible price. Kenneth Branagh (and Shakespeare) did this effectively in Henry V when Henry discovers the boys guarding the luggage slaughtered at Agincourt here and when Henry carries the body of one of the boys across the battle field here.
Of course, all of this makes The Hobbit less of a child's movie and more geared to adults like the LotR movies, but I think that is the intent of the moviemakers, and Tolkien might approve.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 24 2009, 8:00pm
Post #7 of 35
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Oops. I meant, of course, that
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Tolkien, in his portrayal of Gimli in LotR, was, perhaps, atoning for making the dwarves so comical in The Hobbit.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 24 2009, 9:33pm
Post #9 of 35
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Wouldn't it be even more moving
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...for their deaths to be unseen if they were more developed than they were in the books? I think it's a breathtaking moment in the book, the way that two characters we've come to know in little vignettes like this:
I hope I never smell the smell of apples again! said Fili. My tub was full of it. To smell apples everlastingly when you can scarcely move and are cold and sick with hunger is maddening. I could eat anything in the wide world now, for hours on end - but not an apple!
...are gone in a mere phrase. To toss off the deaths of a magnified Fili and Kili in this way would start to make up for the disappointing overemphasis (for me) that Jackson & co. gave to Boromir's death in FOTR.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 24 2009, 9:50pm
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I suppose it's a matter of taste.
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My taste differs from yours in two places here. First, although I felt that Jackson's treatment of Boromir led to other problems (because each change required another change), on the whole I liked Boromir's death scene, and I thought that the changes involving Boromir made him a more satisfying and well-rounded character. Second, I find Tolkien's treatment of Fili and Kili's death odd and unsatisfying. I would have least liked to have seen something like Theoden's lament for Hama.
At any rate, the premise of my original post is that Jackson and del Toro have already decided to give five or six of the dwarves distinctive personalities and relationships with Bilbo, more so than in the book. They even talk of drawing tears from the audience. Doing this with Fili and Kili would, I judge, necessarily require giving their deaths more emphasis as well, whether on screen or off, and whether we approve or not.
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Brandybuckled
Lorien
Apr 24 2009, 11:33pm
Post #12 of 35
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then it seems likely that their deaths would become more important as well. Their deaths are not movingly portrayed in the book, and could not, I judge, be movingly portrayed in one line of dialogue. That doesn't necessarily mean they need to die on screen in full bloody detail either. We could have the joy of victory, followed by the discovery that war has a terrible price. Kenneth Branagh (and Shakespeare) did this effectively in Henry V when Henry discovers the boys guarding the luggage slaughtered at Agincourt here and when Henry carries the body of one of the boys across the battle field here. Of course, all of this makes The Hobbit less of a child's movie and more geared to adults like the LotR movies, but I think that is the intent of the moviemakers, and Tolkien might approve.
While I'm inclined to want to see more of everything (it's not often you get an opportunity to see Middle Earth, after all, bring on the 12-hour version!), another good example of the above is at the end of Master & Commander, when you realize Midshipman Calamy didn't make it only when Jack sees his body.
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Sunflower
Valinor
Apr 24 2009, 11:36pm
Post #13 of 35
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but I think it would be a much better story and film if we see them die onscreen. This would be a potent foreshadowing of the darkness that is to come, and coming at the end of Film 2 (I presume) it would tie in with the Trilogy better.
Personally, I think it's like Fred's death in Deathly Hallows--along with Tonks and Lupin, that was the most shellshocking casualty. Dobby getting offed--well, he was a creature, and Tonks and Lupin lying side by side on the table in the Great Hall was sort of expected, by the time you got to a certain scene in the book... (if David Yates doesn't offer us that image I will *STRANGLE* him...:)...
but Jo Rowling killing off the comic relief, for the 7 books. THAT was indeed a shocker. I don't think ANYBODY saw that one coming. And it's episodes like this that make you really appreciate what evil is. Fili and Kili dying has to have that air of "OMG I NEVER expected that!" about it. Funny, reading TH as a teen and young adult, I didn't appreicate it much. Now, upon another recent reading, it really hits me.
(This post was edited by Sunflower on Apr 24 2009, 11:40pm)
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carrioncrow
Lorien
Apr 25 2009, 12:59am
Post #14 of 35
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I've said from the start. I see the portrayal of Balin as the linchpin to this whole enterprise. If they get that right, I think other choices will fall into place.
I also think some of the characters who die at B05A have to be well-established and connected to Bilbo.
I find this quote very reassuring
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Apr 25 2009, 1:00am
Post #15 of 35
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Yeah... I think your picks are good.
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Dwalin is most noteworthy of being the first to arrive on Bilbo's doorstep and giving Bilbo his spare hood and cloak. They could move around the various dwarves' contributions or activities in the book if they're significant to developing the 6, but I think Balin is a definite given his friendship with Bilbo and his eventual tie-in to LotR. Especially if... IF... they do a 6th film of the series to do the "bridge" film that's now suspended in animation ;)
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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batik
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2009, 2:02am
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on a couple of levels for me.
Since TH is currently being discussed in the RR, I am taking advantage of the opportunity to get more familiar with all those dwarves! The six you featured in your post are, at this point in the story, the most recognizable. I hope the others will become more so as the tale progresses.
Also, I do hope GdT/PJ will consider that we met and remembered a whole lot more than 13 characters during the course of the Trilogy. I do believe viewers can *get to know* the lesser known of the dwarves during 4-6 (???) hours of film and hope those characters are not merely extras.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 25 2009, 5:52am
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From Thorin to Ori: frequency of dwarf-names in "The Hobbit".
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There are surely some errors in this listing of occurences for each of the thirteen:
251 Thorin
69 Balin
59 Bombur
51 Fili
38 Kili
37 Dori
23 Gloin
21 Dwalin
21 Bofur
19 Oin
19 Bifur
14 Nori
11 Ori
And by comparison, for many of the other names in The Hobbit.
555 Bilbo + 62 Mr Baggins
186 Gandalf
96 Gollum
86 Smaug
64 Beorn
57 Bard
33 Master [of Lake-town]
28 William + 5 Bill
28 Bert
28 Dain
25 Elrond
23 Elven-king
22 Tom
17 Thror
15 Great Goblin
12 Thrain [Thrors son]
6 Old Took
6 Roδc
5 Bolg
5 Thrain [the Old]
4 Belladonna
4 Necromancer
3 Bullroarer
3 Bungo
3 Carc
3 Galion
2 Azog
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xy
Rohan
Apr 25 2009, 7:27am
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Obviously Balin and especially Thorin have a relationship with Bilbo, but I'm not sure we get enough of others...bits of Fili and Kili vignettes, and the comic relief Bombur.
I just hope the Dwarves get a more accurate portrayal this time around compared to court jester Gimli in the movies.
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carrioncrow
Lorien
Apr 25 2009, 9:12am
Post #19 of 35
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thanks for this list.
by this measure, it is pretty clear who the "5 or 6" dwarves are.
Dwarf #7, the dwarf on the bubble, is Gloin. I'm guessing that Gloin, as father of Gimli, is going to get some attention as he is an obvious thread that binds to Jackson's LOTR (he even has a cameo in FOTR).
(This post was edited by carrioncrow on Apr 25 2009, 9:16am)
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almas_sparks
Rohan
Apr 25 2009, 1:22pm
Post #20 of 35
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Good idea to cut down dwarfs to 6
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I like it. They will develope their distingished personalities which wouldn`t be possible if there were twelve dwarfs.
As for "quite interesting relationships", I`ll leave that to slash fiction. 
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 25 2009, 1:24pm
Post #21 of 35
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I think all twelves dwarves will remain in the picture.
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I just think they will focus on 5 or 6 of them.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 25 2009, 1:32pm
Post #22 of 35
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So by this count, most of the dwarves are less important than the people
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and monsters the party meets along the way. Even Balin is less important than Smaug and Gollum. And Gollum is more important than Smaug!
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Donry
Tol Eressea
Apr 25 2009, 7:59pm
Post #23 of 35
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all the dwarves should be in the movie, their entrance at Beorn's is a great part of the book imho. And six just isn't right, 13 is the unlucky number which is why the burglar makes 14.
What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?"
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The Party Tree
Lorien
Apr 27 2009, 2:09am
Post #25 of 35
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they chose the more difficult route. It's much easier to make a rabble (gaggle...?) of dwarves comical than not.
They just couldn't resist letting J-R-Davies be the "Sallah" of Lotr, and we can't really find too much fault with them for that.
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