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Goldberry of the river
Menegroth
Apr 21 2009, 5:20pm
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I struggled with The Silmarillion
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Last year I started reading it and only got nearly half way through when I had to give up and decide to try another time. I have an above average intelligence but I found the writing very heavy and it was difficult trying to remember who the characters were and their relation to others.
Has anyone else struggled with it?
Brian Blessed for Thorin!
Formerly known as Rosie!
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Jazmine
Dor-Lomin
Apr 21 2009, 6:04pm
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I struggled too the first time at least
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I did find it quite heavy reading, which surprised me, as up until that point I'd breezed through any book I picked up. But I persevered, and it was worth it!
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sherlock
Mithlond
Apr 21 2009, 6:09pm
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was shortly after it was published and I didn't get very far at all. After joining this community and talking about the books I decided to give it another try a few years ago and made it through the whole book and actually enjoyed most of it. It was still confusing, as you say, and will benefit from more readings but I haven't been inclined to pick it up again.
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Henoluin Elsilim
Ossiriand
Apr 21 2009, 6:18pm
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halfway thourhg the Silmarillion the first time I read it (back when Children of Hurin first came out), but I tried again a few months later and managed to finish it in a decent amount of time. I have read it once or twice more since then and I really enjoy it. I think its a book that can never be completely understood, but I found it is easier to understand and get into the more times you read it. 
~ Henoluin ~
James McAvoy for Bilbo!
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy, and good with ketchup
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 21 2009, 6:34pm
Post #5 of 25
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Here's an informal poll in which even dedicated Tolkien fans express reservations about The Silmarillion.
If you can make it through a couple of times, I find that it does enhance my appreciation of LotR, and has an epic, rough, unfinished beauty of its own, but I seriously doubt that I would read it if not for LotR. Ironically, because of the build up for a "prequel" to LotR, The Silmarillion is the only one of Tolkien's books that hit the best seller's list when it was first published. But if you think it is tough now, imagine the effect on readers eager for something like LotR! We all bought it -- we had to buy it -- but it was quite a shock, and many of us did not finish it.
If you want to give it another try, here are some hints. My favorite sections may be Ainulindalë and Valaquenta, because I happen to believe that they hold a key to hidden spirituality in LotR. At any rate they are short, and fairly straightforward, even if you can't remember the names of all the Valar. Akallabêth, at the end of the book, is relatively straightforward as well.
It's Quenta Silmarillion that can be tough going. I roughly divide the stories into the story of Feanor, the story of Beren, the story of Turin, and the story of Tuor/Earendil. These stories are woven around the story of the Fall of the Noldor and their exile from Valinor, and then five major battles with Morgoth in Beleriand. They are also woven around three major hidden elven kingdoms, refuges from Morgoth, all of which eventually fall: Nargothrond, Doriath, and last of all Gondolin.
There are passages in The Silmarillion I love, and others that I do not love, but which make me wish Tolkien had time to write a much, much longer version of the tale, complete with character development and dialogue. Children of Hurin was an attempt to piece together such a tale from Tolkien's elaborations on The Silmarillion, but unfortunately the matter of Turin works better side by side with the matter of Tuor/Earendil, which is more uplifting. And perhaps the key problem with The Silmarillion simply cannot be repaired: no hobbits, as Tolkien himself worried in a letter.
Don't try to remember all the names. Focus on the few names I just mentioned. Let the rest flow by, immerse yourself in the story, and come to terms with the fact that you will not get all the "Fins" (Head of the family tree Finwe, sons and brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin, grandsons and cousins Fingon and Finrod, and, way down the tree, the only female Fin, poor Finduilas -- but I had to consult Wikipedia to make that list!). If you simply must keep track of the names and places, make good use of your computer -- one great thing about the Tolkien community is that there are hundreds of websites to consult, with Wikipedia being my current favorite (the one-man operation Encyclopedia of Arda is good too).
And, if you wait a few weeks for us to finish with The Hobbit, we will likely discuss The Silmarillion next in the Reading Room. That may be the best way to really see all the details, and to complain, if you like, about the flaws.
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 21 2009, 7:02pm
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Oh, and about those five battles,
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it's really more like three periods of fighting, with the first three battles coming in quick succession when Morgoth and the Noldor first arrive in Beleriand. Then there is a long siege. The fourth battle breaks the siege, and the fifth battle loses the war, although it takes a while for Morgoth to defeat all of his remaining enemies. That's when we see the fall of the three hidden elven kingdoms in fairly quick succession.
Feanor's story comes before the first three battles (he dies in one).
Beren's story comes after the fourth battle and before the fifth (his remarkable success in obtaining one of the Silmarils inspires the fifth and last battle, which proves unfortunate).
Turin's story comes mostly after the last battle, when the war is really lost to Morgoth, except for a few hold-outs. Turin is directly responsible for the fall of the first of those hold-outs, the elven kingdom Nargothrond. Tuor's story comes about the same time, but lasts well past Turin's death.
Doriath falls after Turin's death, and about in the middle of Tuor's story.
Gondolin falls last because they don't listen to Tuor's warning to evacuate, then Tuor escapes and eventually his son Earendil makes it to Valinor, where the Valar save the day at last, sending an army to imprison Morgoth.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Apr 21 2009, 8:05pm
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With Curious - what a shocker 
About Ainulindale at least being relatively straightforward.....
I never could really figure out what the heck Tolkien was talking about for years - and it bored me to death besides - despite reading the Silmarillion 20 times or so to that point until I became a Christian & read the bible & realized where many of the ideas that Tolkien came up with originated from.
I would hardly call it or any of The Silmarillion straightforward.
It took me 3 readings back when it first came out in 1977 when I was 16 to get a grip on all the names & the extended descriptive stories with so very little dialogue much like a cold, terse history book.
Plodding through long enough to 'get it' does have it's advantages in the end though, as those of us who have & love The Silm will tell you....
As for Tolkien's 'spirituallity' in the Silmarillion, it is just perplexing to me that folks could put any value on Tolkien's made up world in our real-world, if that's what you are saying, Curious (other's have said just that).
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 21 2009, 10:00pm
Post #9 of 25
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 21 2009, 10:02pm
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It helps me to draw sketches along the way, even very simple ones if necessary. And to bookmark those sections that say who's who, so I can flip back to them easily whenever I wonder, "Who in blazes is Findahuviel The Nearsighted?"
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Goldberry of the river
Menegroth
Apr 22 2009, 6:57am
Post #11 of 25
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Hilarious! Her reasons for her own struggle are similar to mine.
It took me 7 or 8 months to get nearly half way because I simply could not bring myself to pick up the book and trudge through another few pages. It was like my mind was walking through dry sand or perhaps "rivers choked with weeds and slime"!!
Brian Blessed for Thorin!
Formerly known as Rosie!
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Goldberry of the river
Menegroth
Apr 22 2009, 7:18am
Post #12 of 25
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Thanks for the reassurance everyone!
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I didn't think many of you shared the same opinion. I was annoyed with myself for not finishing it and being disappointed, thinking I was stupid and impatient! I think I expected to have the same experience as I did with LOTR and TH.
I will attempt to read it again soon. I have a Silmarillion genealogy on my favourites to help my with the "Fins"! I would feel like I wasn't a true Tolkien fan if I don't read it.
Brian Blessed for Thorin!
Formerly known as Rosie!
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 22 2009, 4:48pm
Post #13 of 25
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great insights.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 22 2009, 8:48pm
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And, in my case, the Silmarillion won.
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I bought it the day it hit the bookstore.
Very disappointed. No hobbits.
I read it like an encylopedia: Skim and scan. It's a good reference tool.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Apr 22 2009, 10:07pm
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which is exactly the same number of times I've plowed through the Bible from cover to cover, at about the same ages (teenager and 40-something). And it was a similar experience: pages and pages of begats, lots of battles with casts of characters I couldn't keep straight, appalling violence, and moments of sublime beauty. In both cases I was glad to have done the reading, but probably won't do it again.
I've read LotR about 25 times (lost count, but I think that's a reasonable estimate over the past 40 years). But the Sil feels like a chore. I'm glad I know what the backstory is, but it still feels like backstory to me.
If you want the "good parts version", I'd skip ahead to Beren and Luthien. But that's just me. And I like the version of that story as told in Book of Lost Tales better.
I have to admit, though, that the final appearance (in the Sil) of the last Silmaril is an image that has stayed with my my whole life.
Anyway, you're definitely not alone.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Apr 22 2009, 10:52pm
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You know, I am always saying this to people, but they don't agree, but I don't think the Silm is that complicated. Yes, it is deep. Yes there are diferent sytles of writing in it and yes there is a lot going on. But actually the main points that are made, Feanor going loopy, Beren's tale, the dilemma of some of the sons of Feanor are fairly straightforward. And that is not be been a brilliant reader it is more of a fact I think one just has to look at the tale a certain way. And if you do, it can be rewarding. In fact, I think more recent stories like Harry Potter or Philip Pullman's tales are more complex. If you look at it, the Silm is less that 300 pages long. That's about half the size of some modern day fantasy tales!
P.S. New here, BTW!
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durthang
Lindon
Apr 22 2009, 11:01pm
Post #18 of 25
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This is my favourite book of all time. I can't put it down! It leers at me from my bedside table. I was reticent when i first read through, but eventually i was hooked. Every time I finish i need to read it again from cover to cover, and this is a testament to just how rich Tolkien's worlds are. Some may find them too rich (if there is such a thing) but once you get through it a couple of times, it just opens up and gives so much back to you. Not to mention how much the Tolkien world becomes enriched by the process.
I guess if you are bored by battles and geneologies and the like then it might be a little hard going, but if, like me, you hunger for every last drop of Tolkien's world then The Sil is a water tower in the desert.
You get the feeling that given the time, Tolkien would have written countless more tales from the Elder Days, which were so majestic, dark and powerful that I think i'm going to go and read some more of it............
end rant.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 23 2009, 7:32pm
Post #19 of 25
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To some extent I agree. After I got over the initial startlement at the more archaic style (which seemed more appropriate the more I immersed into the book) and once I straightened out the cast of characters (by sketching them) I found it very captivating! It's sort of like adjusting to the temperature of the ocean before reveling in a swim. Once you get going, the landside world seems dry and weighed-down by comparison.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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bookgirl13
Menegroth
Apr 23 2009, 9:06pm
Post #21 of 25
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I found Tom Shippey's ideas about how to read The Silmarillion very helpful and insightful in both his books, Author of the Century and The Road to ME. I particularly liked his explanation of the static nature of character as in Norse Sagas which The Silmarillion emulated. And that people are their heredity, hence the emphasis on family relationships, the various traits of the Noldor, Vanyar, Teleri etc.
I do recommend reading "Visions and Revisions" chapter in The Road.
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Apr 24 2009, 2:32am
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I'll second your words! I've read it only once but I loved it and I didn't find it complicated at all. A beautiful mythology with, of course, quite a few characters, but interesting and well written. In fact, the Sil almost changed my mind about LOTR being the best Tolkien book. I'm not sure yet if I like the Sil more... It's time for a second round!
Welcome to TORN! Great nick and you joined just on time - the 10th anniversary of TORN! Don't forget to join the party during the weekend! 
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Join us on April 30th on the Main board for the renewed thread!
Middle earth recipes archive
I believe
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Apr 24 2009, 7:26am
Post #23 of 25
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I usually skip the Ainulindale. Slogged through once, and got the general idea, but then I want to move on to the stories!
I actually like the majestic, heroic tone of the Quenta Silmarillion. It's like reading an epic poem (which, of course, is what Tolkien had in mind).
But it is tricky keeping all the F-elves straight. My survival tip is to make copies of the family trees (enlarged, if you have a paperback original) and the map of Beleriand, put them in plastic page protectors, and keep them handy when you're reading.
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Saelind
Menegroth
Apr 25 2009, 1:37am
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I've done a talk on the Sil at several cons and I always start with this list of tips:
1. Photocopy the family trees in the back. This will help you keep track of everyone.
2. Read in small sections. You might even start with the material on Numenor and the Third Age.
3. Understand this is a collection of tales/history. Many storylines are happening at the same time.
4. Robert Foster’s Complete Guide to ME is a dictionary of people,places and things found in The Sil, LOTR and the Hobbit, it also has a nice, if not completely accurate chronology which can aid in putting things into some kind of order .
5. Use Karen Fonstad’s Atlas of ME for help in placing where people are and what happened during the battles. Unless you have a first edition Sil which had Tolkien’s original map
6. In the first few chapters, having a list of the Valar might be helpful
7. Read it at least twice.
I've read it multiple times now and have a "working copy" with stickies all over it. It is possible and you might even like it by the end.
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xy
Nargothrond
May 1 2009, 5:50pm
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...and I like the book. And I don't even mind the first 100 or so pages on the creation of the world, it's more annoying to see Tolkien use about a milliono of elves named F______ ; all the names are hard to keep track of. I love the Beren and Turin stories, and the Feanor/Silmaril story.
It is different to Hobbit or LOTR in that there are no hobbits, but more so it's a more dark story. The good guys don't really win, and are pretty much wiped out by the time Valar take action.
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