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EmynArnenLady
Ossiriand
Apr 1 2009, 5:14pm
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Anyone else ever realized the similarities between Tolkien's dwarves and the dwaves of Snow White?
First: Seven dwarves - seven rings of power were given to the Dwarves in LOTR
Second: They are known for their mining skills
kinda interesting. Thought's anyone?
Emyn Arnen Lady
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 1 2009, 5:52pm
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All dwarves are known for their mining skills, aren't they?
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And seven is a traditional number in fairy tales. Plus, in The Hobbit, the number is 13.
Tolkien did not have a high opinion of Disney's dwarves, so I don't think he would appreciate the connection. And both The Hobbit and Snow White came out in 1937 after years in the making, so I don't think they influenced each other. Instead, I think Disney and Tolkien drew upon similar source material, as did Wagner a few decades earlier.
I think it is interesting to compare and contrast Disney's and Tolkien's dwarves, though. Disney's dwarves each had distinct personalities, and names that suited their personalities. They seemed much more working class than Tolkien's dwarves -- Disney's dwarves worked the whole day through, and lived in a cottage, and none of them called himself a king. Nor did Disney's dwarves go looking for an adventure -- instead, adventure came to them. Disney's dwarves did not live in their mine, either; they lived in a cottage, like humans.
(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 1 2009, 5:53pm)
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Apr 1 2009, 6:46pm
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These dwarves were not Disney dwarves except that Disney made a movie based on the tale. These dwarves were and have always been rather old characters in European tales nicely put together by the Grimm brothers. I dislike Wikipedia but in this case comes handy, the rest I find is in Cyrillic  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_White
Disney mixed up a few tales in their version. Some of the Disney staff doesn't exist in the tale. Did you compare Tolkien to Disney because the latter named the dwarves for a first time or because of some other reason?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Apr 1 2009, 7:08pm
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Are you responding to Curious or to EAL?
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Did you compare Tolkien to Disney because the latter named the dwarves for a first time or because of some other reason?
Your post appears as a reply to Curious, but he only addresses Disney's dwarfs because EAL asked if there was any connection to Tolkien's dwarves.
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Apr 1 2009, 7:14pm
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The tale, I thought, which includes the seven dwarves and which is a very old one, collected once by the Grimm brothers. I didn't realize the question was about the movie Snow White solely. 
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Apr 1 2009, 7:17pm
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I seem to have read the question just as Curious did, assuming Disney even though EAL hadn't specified that. Sorry about that.
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Apr 1 2009, 7:26pm
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I may be mistaking too, EAL will clarify probably :) //
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 1 2009, 7:27pm
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Good point! I just assumed Disney, but I shouldn't.//
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Apr 1 2009, 7:28pm
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You may have been right. I'll wait for the author to tell :) //
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Apr 1 2009, 7:37pm
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Some personalities' resemblance maybe
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Well, there are certain parallels that could be made like: difficult to accept new people/races; kind of distant; hiding often from other species; secretive; jealous of their skills and knowledge; very precious friends; brave and skillful in battle... There may be more but I don't remember the details of their personalities that well anymore.
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EmynArnenLady
Ossiriand
Apr 1 2009, 11:19pm
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for any confusion. I wasn't really comparing and connection the two, it just always strunk me as interesting that there happened to be seven Dwarves in the Snow White story (not Disney's in particular) and seven Dwarves recieved rings of power in LOTR and both are great miners. Just thought it'd make an interesting conversation. 
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 2 2009, 4:24am
Post #12 of 23
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And you have nothing to apologize for. Because of course the story of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves is far older than Disney. You've given me something new to think about!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 2 2009, 5:13pm
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No, I'm sorry for the confusion. Actually, The Annotated Hobbit
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notes that elements of the dwarves' behavior in The Hobbit come right out of fairy tales like Snow White, citing versions by the Brothers Grimm (Snow White" or "Schneewittchen" and "Snow White and Rose Red") and Andrew Lang ("Snowdrop" and "Snow White and Rose Red"). See The Annotated Hobbit, Chapter 2, note 20. I'm afraid I'm not sufficiently familiar with the stories by the Brothers Grimm and Andrew Lang to comment, but perhaps I will find time to read them and comment in the future.
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Morthoron
Hithlum
Apr 2 2009, 10:03pm
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In the Hobbit there were thirteen Dwarves (not dwarfs, of course). Let's see, there was Doc, Grumpy, Sneezy, Sleepy, Dopey, Happy, and Bashful.
Now, we only need six more: Sleazy, Stinky, Fatty, Sloppy, Dorky and Thorin (who was far too important a Dwarf to have a nickname).
Read the ongoing serialization of MONTY PYTHON'S 'The HOBBIT', found here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/...y_Pythons_The_Hobbit
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2009, 3:04pm
Post #15 of 23
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“No one's ever gonna pay a dime to see a dwarf picture.”
-Mrs. Walt Disney
Let’s get out of the way the obligatory “Tolkien hated Disney and 'that damnable mouse' blah-blah-blah”.
But Tolkien also cordially disliked Shakespeare, yet Shakespearean references can be found throughout his works. So why not Disney? Disney’s butterfly in Burbank might well have affected a creative whirlwind in Oxford.
The most obvious difference between Disney’s dwarfs and Tolkien’s dwarves is the spelling. But what are the similarities?
A study of the dwarfs’ cottage reveals intricate and playful decorations and creations, characteristic of the works of Tolkien's dwaves:
“…and leisure to make beautiful things just for the. fun of it, not to speak of the most marvellous and magical toys, the like of which is not to be found in the world now-a-days.”
Note the Disney dwarfs’ also have a love of mining for just the sake of mining:
“We dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig
Dig up everything in sight.
“We dig diamonds
by the score,
“A thousand rubies
Sometimes more,
“Though we don't know what
we dig 'em for.”
Like in The Hobbit the dwarfs make music as an orchestra, with seemingly silly instruments. (Indeed, they play “The Silly Song”.) Doc plays a mandolin that’s been exquisitely carved to resemble a duck. And Grumpy’s elaborate pipe organ is the most memorable instrument of the film.
BTW, the film was the first American film to ever release a sound track. People thought Disney was crazy, but the recording was highly successful. Since then virtually every Hollywood film releases a soundtrack.
LOTR was a book that wasn’t expected to make money.
“Disney’s Folly” was expected to ruin Disney who had mortgaged everything to pay for it. Instead the film became the highest grossing movie ever made until Gone With The Wind. Adjusted for inflation it is still one of the top ten grossing films in Hollywood history.
Disney was the first to make the seven dwarves of the story distinct characters. He did this through names, personalities, colors, clothing, and body movement. The film was one of the first to utilize live-action reference footage. For example, professional vaudevillian pantomimist Eddie Collins provided the movements for Dopey, and the routine for Happy’s Silly Song dance. The reference technique proved so successful that it became an industry standard. And of course that eventually led to Andy Serkis as Gollum.
Unfortunately Tolkien wasn’t quite so successful in making his dwarves individually distinctive.
Disney conceived Grumpy’s personality from the start, so he is arguably the main dwarf. He is at first suspicious of Snow White:
“She's a female!
And all females is poison!
They're full of wicked wiles!”
“What are ‘wicked wiles’?”
“I don't know,
but I'm agin’ 'em!”
Later that attitude will change.
“Now, I'm warnin' ya. Don't let nobody or nothin' in the house.”
“Why, Grumpy, you do care!”
“Huh!”
“Good-bye, Grumpy!”
And Grumpy will lead the charge against the Wicked Witch, and be the most grief-stricked at Snow White’s funeral.
Which leads us to a very interesting comparison:
Snow White = Lady of Light,
Grumpy = Gimli.
One might also note the Evil Stepmother’s spying raven and Saruman’s spying crows.
The Evil Stepmother’s mirror and Galadriel’s mirror.
Again, we must throw in the obligatory “But they’re probably similar simply because they share the same roots in fairy tales yadda-yadda-yadda.”
But another possibility is that after Tolkien saw Disney’s film he consciously chose to contrast Disney’s dwarfs with how he thought dwarves really ought to be. Sort of like how "Rio Bravo" (1959), was conservative Howard Hawk's indignant response to liberal Stanley Kramer's "High Noon" (1952).
If Tolkien was in some manner inspired by Disney, that isn't a bad thing. That's how culture works.
Again, thanks for a great question!
BTW, other names considered for the dwarfs were:
Awful, Baldy, Biggo-Ego, Biggy, Biggy-Wiggy, Blabby, Burpy, Busy, Chesty, Cranky, Daffy, Dippy, Dirty, Dizzy, Doleful, Flabby, Gabby, Gloomy, Goopy, Graceful, Helpful, Hoppy, Hotsy, Hungry, Jaunty, Jumpy, Lazy, Nurtsy, Nifty, Puffy, Sappy, Sneezy-Wheezy, Sniffy, Scrappy, Shifty, Silly, Snoopy, Soulful, Strutty, Stuffy, Sleazy, Tearful, Thrifty, Tipsy, Titsy, Tubby, Weepy, Wistful, and Woeful.
No Bingo or Trotter, though.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2009, 3:09pm
Post #16 of 23
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Absolutely no need to apologize! There are no such things as stupid questions, only stupid answers.
BTW, my first question on the old boards was "Were any of the Nazgul female?" While some joking occurred, I did get some thoughtful answers, especially from EZ Strider.
Oh, and welcome to TORn and the Reading Room!!
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 3 2009, 3:47pm
Post #17 of 23
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EZ Rider.
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 3 2009, 4:04pm
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But the movie and The Hobbit came out in the same year.
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So The Hobbit, at least, could not have been influenced by Disney. As you say, they were working with similar sources, although Tolkien may have worked with older sources.
The Disney dwarves, as I commented in this thread, seem more like working-class dwarves than Tolkien's.
I'm not sure I see Tolkien's decision not to give his thirteen dwarves distinct personalities as a failure, although I do like the different approach he took in LotR. But in The Hobbit he focused on Bilbo, and for Bilbo's character arc it may have made more sense to see the dwarves as a crowd that blends together, like the chorus in Greek plays. At the beginning of the book Bilbo follows the crowd, later he leads the crowd, and still later he breaks away from the crowd entirely. That's an important part of the story, which might be lost if the dwarves had more distinct personalities.
Gimli was a very different kind of dwarf from those we find in The Hobbit or Disney's film, and perhaps that was a reaction to Disney, as well as to what Tolkien disliked about his own publication. On the other hand, Galadriel is more like the Evil Queen/Witch with the magic mirror than Snow White, to my mind, and may be a major rehabilitation of witches, just as Gimli is a major rehabilitation of dwarves -- although Galadriel was tempted to become an Evil Queen. You will recall that Boromir and the people of Gondor thought of Galadriel as a witch or enchantress. Snow White is more like a hobbit -- innocent and childlike, and vulnerable to evil.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Apr 3 2009, 4:33pm
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And in the UK, "The Hobbit" came out first.
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I once read an article that examined Tolkien's dislike for Disney. As I recall, all published instances of this distaste predate the screening of Snow White & the Seven Dwarfs in England. Tolkien seems to have been responding to Disney's short cartoons.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2009, 4:51pm
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And in the US, Snow White came out first.
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The Hobbit wasn't published in the US until the year after.
Maybe Tolkien mistook Disney's 1937 Snow White for Betty Boop's 1933 Snow White which probably would cause his blood to boil for more than one reason.
Both cartoons are considered masterpieces of animation.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Apr 3 2009, 5:15pm
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But did Tolkien see any film version of "Snow White"?
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That's what I was trying to remember, because I can't recall that he ever mentions Snow White, and all his remarks on Disney's art predate the appearance of that version in England. I think.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2009, 5:32pm
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There was also the newspaper version.
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Disney released a newspaper comic strip of Snow White about the same time as the film.
The Mickey Mouse Weekly was published in Great Britain from 1936 to 1959 and reprinted the Disney newspaper comics.
Note that The Mickey Mouse Annual was first published in Great Britian in 1930, but contained Mickey Mouse comics that were written and drawn by British artists.
Sometimes material from both sources would be reprinted in British newspapers.
BTW, here's Disney's June 1935 visit to Great Britain as commemorated by Punch Magazine:
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 3 2009, 5:40pm)
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 4 2009, 2:22am
Post #23 of 23
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*has image of Aragorn on a Harley* //
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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