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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 21 2009, 2:42am
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The Grey Havens III - "Sam stayed first at the Cottons’ with Frodo…"
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The third of Kel's posts for this week:
The Chapter continues with a description of Sams labour’s and Frodo’s illness
“In addition to all his other labours he was busy directing the cleaning up and restoring of Bag End; but he was often away in the Shire on his forestry work. So he was not at home in early March and did not know that Frodo had been ill.”
It then continues to tell us of the refurbishment of Bag End and Frodo’s invitation to Sam to move in and to marry Rosie and bring her with him.
“…Merry and Pippin came over from Crickhollow bringing back all the old furniture and gear, so that the old hole soon looked very much as it always had done.”
“‘I see,’ said Frodo: ‘you want to get married, and yet you want to live with me in Bag End too? But my dear Sam, how easy! Get married as soon as you can, and then move in with Rosie. There’s room enough in Bag End for as big a family as you could wish for.’”
We then have Sam and Rosie’s wedding and are told that Frodo resigns as Deputy Mayor and Will Whitfoot is re-elected for another seven years as Mayor.
The section goes on to describe how respected Merry, Pippin and Sam have become in the Shire communities and Sam’s anxiety that Frodo was being forgotten. Once again Frodo is ill, this time on the anniversary of his wounding on Weathertop.
“Merry and Pippin lived together for some time at Crickhollow… the two young Travellers cut a great dash in the Shire with their songs and their tales and their finery, and their wonderful parties. ‘Lordly’ folk called them, meaning nothing but good…”
“Frodo and Sam, however, went back to ordinary attire… Frodo dropped quietly out of all the doings of the Shire, and Sam was pained to notice how little honour he had in his own country…”
Questions
1. Did you place any significance on Sam’s absence from Frodo during this first illness?
2. Were you surprised that the wound of Shelob was also not fully healed?
3. There is a great deal of emphasis in this chapter of everything returning to normal, do you think it helps to increase the imagery of Frodo’s inability to be whole? Why? Why not?
4. Why do you think there is such a marked difference between the behaviour and attire of the two sets of “Traveller” Hobbits and how they are perceived by the other Hobbits? Is it entirely due to Merry and Pippin’s youth?
5. “‘I am wounded,’ he answered, ‘wounded; it will never really heal.’” When you read this, do you still find yourself hoping beyond hope, that there could be a happier ending for Frodo?
6. Any other comments?
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 21 2009, 2:53am
Post #2 of 72
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"He was very pale and his eyes seemed to see things far away."
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That's Frodo in this section. Here's Aragorn, in "Strider":
"The hobbits looked at him, and saw with surprise that his face was drawn as with pain, and his hands clenched the arms of his chair. The room was very quiet and still, and the light seemed to have grown dim. For a while he sat with unseeing eyes as if walking in distant memory or listening to sounds in the Night far away."
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 19-25 for "The Grey Havens".
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 21 2009, 7:04am
Post #3 of 72
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1. Did you place any significance on Sam’s absence from Frodo during this first illness?
'I am glad that you are here with me,' said Frodo. 'Here at the end of all things, Sam.'
2. Were you surprised that the wound of Shelob was also not fully healed?
Did it not? Frodo is mentioning his hurts, and he might just be forgetting the orc-spear which "would have skewered a wild boar" (Aragorn, 'The Bridge of Khazad-dum').
However, in 'the Tale of Years', the date of Frodo's illness is given as March 13th (quite oddly; I would have expected it to be the 25th). So there must be a significance to this.
But rather than the poison, I would connect it either with being carried into Mordor, or with having the Ring taken away from him (by Sam, but still...) - even though Tolkien's entry there indicates otherwise.
3. There is a great deal of emphasis in this chapter of everything returning to normal, do you think it helps to increase the imagery of Frodo’s inability to be whole? Why? Why not?
Yes, of course. Life returns to normal, and he is one of the casualities left by the road.
4. Why do you think there is such a marked difference between the behaviour and attire of the two sets of “Traveller” Hobbits and how they are perceived by the other Hobbits? Is it entirely due to Merry and Pippin’s youth?
Sam isn't whole yet. He won't be until Frodo leaves.
5. “‘I am wounded,’ he answered, ‘wounded; it will never really heal.’” When you read this, do you still find yourself hoping beyond hope, that there could be a happier ending for Frodo?
I can't help wondering if will ever be healed beyond the Sea, or (like Bilbo, probably) will only be granted a short glimpse of that bliss before going to meet his Maker.
6. Any other comments?
When he had gone and passed out again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlórien.
"Wasted?" I says, "I wouldn't call it that" - Sam
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 21 2009, 4:56pm
Post #4 of 72
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How did Sauron make the Morgul blades?
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2. Were you surprised that the wound of Shelob was also not fully healed?
Yes - Shelob is obviously some really magical being, if her poison is akin to the Morgul Blade in potency. Perhaps it was the model for the Morgul blade!
5. “‘I am wounded,’ he answered, ‘wounded; it will never really heal.’” When you read this, do you still find yourself hoping beyond hope, that there could be a happier ending for Frodo?
The sad part I think is the requirement that the Elves leave, more than that Frodo leaves. I forget whether it was Curious or Squire who described it this way the last time we read LotR, but sure, Frodo has to go to Valinor, but on the other hand, Frodo gets to go to VALINOR!
The paleobotanist is back!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jan 22 2009, 12:50am
Post #6 of 72
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Sam's absence...
I mentioned before (Homeward Bound discussion) the possibility that Sam is no longer "bound" to Frodo. Here, I think, Tolkien is reinforcing the idea of Sam acting independently of Frodo.
...the wound of Shelob...
Not really surprised although I do think there's more to his feeling ill than just the physical wound--something (the date?) seems to trigger his thoughts ("...all is now dark and empty.")
...returning to normal...
But it's not, really. It's been an exceptional year. Tolkien's references to Frodo's illnesses allow us to see that Frodo is wrapping things up now.
Differences...
Merry and Pippin are not just Hobbits anymore....Merry is an esquire of Rohan and Pippin is a knight of Gondor. On the other hand Sam's ties to the Elves are reflected in his wearing of the cloak as well as his deeds in the Shire. Frodo....well, his ties to M-e are lessening now.
...hoping beyond hope...
yup, that'd be me 
other comments...
well, I do think it's interesting that Frodo seems to manipulate Sam into moving into Bag End...did Sam *say* he wanted to move in (did I miss that?) or is Frodo making that assumption as part of his plan to get Sam (and his family) settled in at Bag End?
(This post was edited by batik on Jan 22 2009, 12:52am)
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acheron
Mithlond
Jan 22 2009, 3:43pm
Post #7 of 72
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"quay" is pronounced like "key" though ;) //
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For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 24 2009, 5:31am
Post #8 of 72
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It was intended from early on that Frodo should leave.
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Tolkien, when making notes during what is considered the "Third Phase" of the writing (with "Frodo" now firmly in place of "Bingo"), wrote in one list: "Island in sea. Take Frodo there in end."
At some point during the writing it dawned on him why Frodo had to go there. The first draft of "Homeward Bound" has this exchange as the quintet nears Weathertop: "'My wound aches,' [Frodo] said, 'and the memory of darkness is heavy on me. Are there not things, Gandalf, that cannot ever be wholly healed?' 'Alas, it is so,' said Gandalf. 'It is so I guess with my wounds,' said Frodo."
In the first draft of this chapter, the parts about Sam healing the Shire and getting married were in place, but there is nothing about Frodo's illnesses in March of 1420 and 1421. The illness on October 6th is mentioned, and when he and Sam meet up with Bilbo and the Elves and Bilbo asks "Are you coming?", Frodo's reply is "Yes, I am coming, before the wound returns."
In the second draft the other illness is now mentioned: "On the twelfth of March he was in pain and weighed down with a great sense of darkness, and could do little more than walk about clasping the jewel of Queen Arwen. But after a while the fit passed."
These descriptions were intensified in the final copies, so that the reader would know beyond a doubt: Frodo could not stay in Middle-earth.
An item of interest is that in the first and second drafts, there is no mention of Frodo quietly dropping out of sight; instead, "Even Sam could find no fault with Frodo's fame and honour in his own country." Frodo's withdrawal did not occur until the final typed copy.
I think it would have detracted badly from the poignancy of the ending, had Frodo retained honored reputation!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 26 2009, 10:08pm
Post #9 of 72
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I think Sam becomes whole when he leaves to Valinor with Frodo...
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Even though Sam had a family, he did eventually leave Middle-earth too when his Rosie had died..that shows that he is still very attached to his master and that because he was a Ring-bearer he had the privilege to leave to go to Valinor as well.
I don't think Sam really fully healed until he left Middle-earth too.
But rather than the poison, I would connect it either with being carried into Mordor, or with having the Ring taken away from him (by Sam, but still...) - even though Tolkien's entry there indicates otherwise. I would think that it is the significance of the Shelob anniversary stinging that leads to Frodo still feeling pain.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Jan 26 2009, 10:15pm)
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 26 2009, 10:13pm
Post #10 of 72
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I especially liked the fact about Frodo telling Bilbo that he wants to leave before the pain returns.
These descriptions were intensified in the final copies, so that the reader would know beyond a doubt: Frodo could not stay in Middle-earth. It's so sad but true that Frodo could not stay. He has been too deeply hurt. I think i was expecting something like this happening because even though Frodo did return ot the Shire, the amount of burden and wounds that he had to bear is too much and it would be idealistic to think that he could go back one and whole and able to go on. I think Tolkien presented a realistic circumstance for him to leave Middle-earth.
We also had Arwen's jewel be given to Frodo, and therefore, that is also foreshadowing that Frodo must leave. :(
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 27 2009, 1:17am
Post #11 of 72
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What happened on March 13? And did Tolkien envy Frodo or Sam?
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1. Did you place any significance on Sam’s absence from Frodo during this first illness?
Not the first time I read it, I imagine. But now I can see that they are already growing apart. Sam never would have missed this during the quest, when he was always at Frodo's side.
2. Were you surprised that the wound of Shelob was also not fully healed?
Are you sure Frodo is feeling the wound of Shelob? If so, what do we make of his statement "'It is gone for ever and now all is dark and empty'"? What does that have to do with Shelob's wound?
March 13 is also the anniversary of Frodo waking up a prisoner of the orcs, thinking the Ring was in the hands of the Enemy. Could it be that deep, dark despair that continues to affect him?
Note, by the way, that Frodo does not mourn the loss of the Ring on March 25, when it was unmade. I don't see Frodo's fit every March 13 as continuing lust for the Ring, but rather as Frodo's memory of a traumatic moment when he thought his mission had utterly failed, and that Sauron had the Ring. The Ring was lost forever to the Enemy, and all was dark and empty because the Enemy had (seemingly) won.
That's how I interpret it, anyway, but Tolkien, as usual, remains coy. By the way, for those who insist that this is a memoir, how did this tidbit make it into the memoirs? Would Frodo have put it there? Would Sam, even though he did not witness it and no one told him about it? Did Farmer Cotton contribute to the memoirs after Frodo had sailed away?
I'm sure we can rationalize an explanation, but, for me, the simplest answer is that the book we are reading is not a memoir. That's just an amusing conceit Tolkien serves us at the beginning and end of a book that otherwise bears little or no resemblance to a memoir.
3. There is a great deal of emphasis in this chapter of everything returning to normal, do you think it helps to increase the imagery of Frodo’s inability to be whole? Why? Why not?
Yes. Frodo's continuing trauma is highlighted by the healing of the Shire and Sam's marriage. The contrast, and the way Sam and Frodo grow apart, makes Frodo's plight that much more poignant.
4. Why do you think there is such a marked difference between the behaviour and attire of the two sets of “Traveller” Hobbits and how they are perceived by the other Hobbits? Is it entirely due to Merry and Pippin’s youth?
No, it's not due to their youth. Merry and Pippin continue to wear their mailshirts and shields! They stick out in the Shire like sore thumbs, and they love it! Frodo and Sam go back to ordinary attire, and Frodo practically becomes a recluse. Sam, despite going back to his ordinary attire, must attract attention as he does his magical forestry work, and gets his share of admiration and respect, although he seems oblivious to it. Merry and Pippin are "lordly" aristocrats, in the best sense of the word. Sam is a common fellow made good, but maintains a sense of modesty. Frodo has one foot in a different world, and is just biding his time in the Shire.
5. “‘I am wounded,’ he answered, ‘wounded; it will never really heal.’” When you read this, do you still find yourself hoping beyond hope, that there could be a happier ending for Frodo?
There is a happy ending for Frodo! He goes to Elvenhome, and perhaps beyond! Is it really Frodo we should pity, or Sam, once again trapped in the world of the mundane? Granted, there are compensations -- but I wonder whom Tolkien envied.
Somehow I think Tolkien always felt a sense of disappointment when fairy-tales ended, no matter how happily, and wished they could go on for a lifetime -- and Frodo gets that wish! Of course, Tolkien got his wish as well, if writing about Fairie is similar to exploring it.
Again, I see Frodo's return to Fairie as part of Tolkien's commentary on Fairy-tales. Let's put it another way using a different tale. Why would Dorothy ever want to return to dull, poor, grey Kansas after visiting Oz? Okay, maybe it was worth it to comfort the people she loved -- but if it were you, wouldn't you want to stay in Oz? Aren't you at least tempted? Is there really no place like home?
(This post was edited by Curious on Jan 27 2009, 1:21am)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 27 2009, 1:30am
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I don't think Farmer Cotton wrote in the Red Book himself (he probably couldn't even read) but he would certainly have told his son-in-law about the incident, and Sam would have added up that all of these things corresponded to important dates. And once he started to make the correllation, he might have asked around about how Frodo seemed when he himself had been too preoccupied with the birth of his daughter to take note. But yes, Tolkien deliberately wrote in a witness to maintain the conceit, even if he might have slipped up later.
The conceit is part of the fiction, an integral part of the suspension of disbelief. Whenever Tolkien puts in something without a witness present, it's a mistake. I am convinced that at those moments he falls short of his purpose. Tolkien was a scholar surrounded by people who loved to pore over ancient books with multiple authors, and he wrote for them before anyone else.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jan 27 2009, 1:42am
Post #13 of 72
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Is it really Frodo we should pity, or Sam, once again trapped in the world of the mundane?
Wow...that brings to mind some words a good friend spoke in the final couple of weeks of his life (here!). While we were all miserable about this he let us know he was OK and moving on to something better while we were going to be staying around (I think he actually said "stuck here")..."going to work, paying bills, and all that BS".
(This post was edited by batik on Jan 27 2009, 1:42am)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 27 2009, 8:51am
Post #14 of 72
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Despite the interpretation of the movie, in Tolkien's world Frodo is not dying. Unlike Bilbo, Sam, and Gimli, Frodo should be able to live several decades in the Undying Lands, assuming he finds a cure for his wounds. Indeed, Gandalf is showing great trust in Frodo, for in the Undying Lands it will be up to Frodo to pass away when his time is up, despite the fact that he will not grow old.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 27 2009, 9:07am
Post #15 of 72
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The conceit is part of the fiction, an integral part of the suspension of disbelief. ... Tolkien was a scholar surrounded by people who loved to pore over ancient books with multiple authors, and he wrote for them before anyone else.
Very nicely put. 
I agree that there's no problem at all with the incident of Frodo's illness being in the Red Book. It's not just a "personal witness", first-person memoir, after all - it's a history, written by characters who lived through that history, but who integrated into their story as much information as they could get from whatever sources were available.
Which means, I guess, that I agree with Curious that LotR is not a "memoir". It's a history - an ancient history, written from the perspective of the ancient authors who lived through it.
(The Hobbit, now - that seems to me to be more like a memoir. Perhaps it will be interesting to see whether the difference in style between the two books bears this out, if we discuss The Hobbit next...)
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 27 2009, 9:33am
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...how literally you read the book.
Despite the interpretation of the movie, in Tolkien's world Frodo is not dying.
I think going to the Undying Lands is a metaphor for dying. It's a way of depicting death as it appears to someone who truly believes in life after death - a journey to the "other side", from which there is no return. An essentially happy journey, but one that takes you away from people and places that you love, with only a hope that you will be reunited one day when your loved ones "cross over" themselves. And as Tolkien says in his Letters, for Frodo it represents a kind of Purgatory, where he can learn to free himself from his sense of guilt. But I agree that Tolkien distinguishes it from death proper. Ordinary death, the kind that is feared and avoided, has to be in the story too, otherwise there would be no sense of jeopardy for the characters.
(The movie's interpretation is perhaps a bit more complex than you say, though, in that the "far green country" that Gandalf equates with life after death for Pippin, is not linked directly to Frodo's departure from the Havens, where all we see is a golden sunset. I don't think the movie, any more than the book, is telling us that Frodo is literally dying when he leaves Middle-earth - just as in the book, all we know is that he's going somewhere beautiful from which there is no return. A metaphoric death, but no more than that.)
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 27 2009, 9:34am
Post #17 of 72
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The Hobbit is full of authorial comments
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by a contemporary narrator. It has no prologue or appendices or internal references to a memoir or history. There's no pretense or conceit such as we find in LotR, let alone any attempt to carry that pretense or conceit throughout the story, which I still believe is lacking in LotR.
As for LotR as history vs. memoir, I still beg to differ. It is possible to play that game, sure, rationalizing everything that doesn't sound like history. It's a game Tolkien enjoys, and many of his fans take to extremes. But, with a few exceptions, it's not a game Tolkien plays in the body of the story.
One might ask why it matters, and why I care. I believe that it interferes with a serious critical reading to treat this work of fantasy as a history or memoir. Maybe I do take it too seriously, though. Tolkien certainly encouraged his fans to buy into the conceit, so maybe I should just give up and enjoy the game.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 27 2009, 9:39am
Post #18 of 72
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I think Tolkien distinguished Fairie from Heaven.
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And I don't think Tolkien had a death wish -- but I do think he enjoyed Escaping to Fairie, which is different from dying. I think there is a metaphor at work in Frodo's departure, but not a metaphor for death. It's a metaphor for Escape.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 27 2009, 9:42am
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I believe that it interferes with a serious critical reading to treat this work of fantasy as a history or memoir.
For me, it's an integral part of the fantasy. It adds depth and a level of psychological realism to the story, as well as a sense of mystery - the sense that this story was told by people who saw the world from a very different perspective than the one we have today. It's that added perspective, the view through other eyes, that makes Middle-earth reflect our own world in such a vivid, striking way.
Or that's how it seems to me. It's not a game at all. It's a deep part of the narrative method.
(Let's leave The Hobbit for later. I think you have to look beneath the "children's author" style of the "translator" to see just whose viewpoint we are really getting. But this probably isn't the time to go there....)
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 27 2009, 9:51am
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is life after death. I do believe Tolkien saw Faerie as a "subcreated" reflection of spiritual life, whose ultimate destiny is the "next world".
I agree that the book can be read on the level you say ("I think there is a metaphor at work in Frodo's departure, but not a metaphor for death. It's a metaphor for Escape.") But Escape is a metaphor too....
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 27 2009, 9:52am
Post #21 of 72
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Where has treating LotR as a history given you an insight as you analyzed the work?
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 27 2009, 10:14am
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I see it everywhere, but it's hard to put your finger on it, as Sam might say.
I guess it's especially important to me because of the ambiguities it sets up - things that seem to be, but that we can never be fully certain of. Most of the fantasy, in fact. I sense that if we tried to analyse these things with our modern scientific equipment, we'd find nothing there. And yet these things are real within the story because they are real for the characters whose viewpoint we are getting.
I think Tolkien imagined himself right into Middle-earth, and that he writes from that perspective - from the perspective of someone who lived in that world. It's not important who wrote what (is this Frodo, or is it Sam, or a Gondorian, or whatever?) but it is important that it was written from the viewpoint of people for whom Middle-earth is real, not fantasy.
Once you imagine that the origin of the story is an account written by the characters, you also become aware of how contingent that story is, as it passes from hand to hand, with additions and corrections, and finally a "modern translation". For me, that all adds to the fluidity of what I read, the sense that there are multiple layers embedded in the story - the literal flowing into the metaphorical and the mystical.
(However, it can also be interesting to speculate about how the characters could have known something that they didn't witness, as Dreamdeer does about Frodo's illness at the Cottons'. Dreamdeer also makes come interesting comments in this post further down the board, in which she speculates about what Sam did or didn't hear through the Bag End window. Of course there's no proof either way, but the interesting thing is that Tolkien gives us just enough information that we are able to speculate, and for me that's one of the most interesting things about the way he tells the story.)
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 27 2009, 2:33pm
Post #23 of 72
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Gee, that sounds like a romance.
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I think Tolkien imagined himself right into Middle-earth, and that he writes from that perspective - from the perspective of someone who lived in that world. It's not important who wrote what (is this Frodo, or is it Sam, or a Gondorian, or whatever?) but it is important that it was written from the viewpoint of people for whom Middle-earth is real, not fantasy.
I agree wholeheartedly. As Tolkien said in "On Fairy-stories," the author must treat Faerie as real. I think he may have regretted some of the authorial asides we find in The Hobbit, which risk breaking the illusion that the story is real.
But I'm not sure why we, the reader -- and particularly the analytical reader, the close reader -- must continue to think of LotR as a history, which it clearly is not. We can appreciate the efforts Tolkien made to create that conceit, and we can take off our critical hat and enjoy the illusion, but that doesn't mean we should continue to maintain the conceit as we analyze what is clearly a work of fiction in every respect -- not even historical fiction, but fantasy, a world of make-believe, a fictional story set in a fictional world.
Furthermore, I think we should recognize that Tolkien does not maintain the conceit throughout the story. For the most part, he uses the conceit in the Prelude and appendices, and makes a handful of references in the text -- but otherwise, I just don't see him worrying about how any particular episode made its way into a fictional history. We don't see Frodo or Sam keeping a journal, for example. We can imagine that they did so, if we like, but it isn't a part of the story.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jan 27 2009, 2:38pm)
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Jan 27 2009, 2:41pm
Post #24 of 72
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And Death can also be an Escape even if there is no metaphor (and there is in LOTR) - it depends on who looks at it and how he/she sees it. Death is not always frightening and/or unexpected. Very nice post, FarFromHome!
Culinary journey through Middle Earth continues! Bright new in the New Year - January 15 on the Main board
I believe
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 27 2009, 3:22pm
Post #25 of 72
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But I thought that Tolkien came right out and said that mortals age faster in the undying lands, that "They are called the Undying Lands because the Undying live there," not that they conveyed any sort of advantage to mortals. That was Sauron's lie to Ar-Pharazon.
Also, long before Peter Jackson, Ursela K. LeGuin put forward in her review of "The Lord of the Rings" that Frodo's departure was, in fact, a symbolic funeral, that Frodo did, for all practical purposes, die. Think of the things one says at a funeral: "Well, he's in a better world, now." "I know he lives on in heaven, I just wish he was still in hugging-range." Etc. Psychologically speaking, he has died to his friends. Sam will eventually join him at the end of his days--but won't we all rejoin our loved ones at the end of our days, in Tolkien's spiritual perspective?
Peter Jackson is not nearly as original in his opinions as people give him credit for.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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