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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 26 2009, 2:52pm
Post #51 of 60
(1058 views)
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el- = star
hador = thrower
As for the starfish analogy, I was thinking more from the standpoint that when something bad is happening you do what you can to stop it, even if it seems hopeless. That seems to be an important theme in the struggles of Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo in the face of the Long Decline.
As for logic's sake, you're right that I probably veered off course with a bit of non sequitur. But it's such a great story.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 26 2009, 2:54pm
Post #52 of 60
(1050 views)
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Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!
Thank you!
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 26 2009, 2:59pm
Post #53 of 60
(1079 views)
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"The wise speak only of what they know"
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And if you can't trust Gandalf, who can you trust?
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 26 2009, 4:43pm
Post #54 of 60
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...that Gandalf did not definitively say that Gollum actually ate babies. He only repeated rumors of a disturbing possibility (It could just as easily have been rats or a wildcat creeping into windows.) He was worried about whether or not it might be true, but being wise, he didn't state point blank, "Gollum's been eating babies!" He took pains to not speak of what he didn't know.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 26 2009, 5:04pm
Post #55 of 60
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But why bring it up at all? It's only purpose would seem to be what it did with me: Inflame one's opinion about Gollum.
Which was exactly what it seemed to have done with one pair of eavesdropping ears. If Gandalf hadn't dropped this little tidbit at the Council would Sam have been so suspicious and harsh with Gollum? Would Sam have perhaps not spoiled Smeagol's one precious opportunity for redemption? On the other hand, without it would Sam have been a bit too trusting, and the quest lost because Gollum would have murdered them in their sleep?
Is this a case of "Gandalf the Manipulator"?
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jan 26 2009, 5:15pm
Post #56 of 60
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Oh, Gandalf manipulates, no question about it! But he also has his reasons. Bag End was not a court of law, to try Gollum's guilt or innocense, but a place where Gandalf briefed a hobbit (or two) about to embark upon a dangerous quest. In that briefing, he had to include possible dangers that were mere supposition. He made it clear that he didn't know for certain, leaving room for mercy and the benefit of the doubt. This left Frodo able to work with Gollum, yet watching his back the entire time--exactly the right way to handle the wretch. The problem with Sam was that he walked away (seen whistling strolling away from the window, presumably to brief Merry, Pippin, and Fatty somewhere in hiding, before coming back for the rest) right before information that would have put Gollum in a more compassionate light. This omission proved nearly fatal on the stairs of Cirith Ungol, tipping the balance right when Gollum might have repented.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 26 2009, 7:08pm
Post #57 of 60
(1057 views)
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And I wonder why I didn't guess it was Elvish. At least I should have noticed the el- and connected that to the starfish! But the word looked Arabic somehow...
As for the starfish analogy, I was thinking more from the standpoint that when something bad is happening you do what you can to stop it, even if it seems hopeless. That seems to be an important theme in the struggles of Aragorn, Gandalf, and Frodo in the face of the Long Decline.
I certainly agree 100% about that!
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 27 2009, 2:19pm
Post #58 of 60
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I don't understand your logic.
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"It climbed trees to find nests; it crept into holes to find the young; it slipped through windows to find cradles."
The line literally makes my blood boil. If only Bilbo, Aragorn, Gandalf, or the Elves had done what needed to be done then a lot of babies would still be alive.
Bilbo had a chance to kill Gollum, no question, but I don't think he had the evidence or the right to do so. That does not mean Bilbo should be blamed for everything Gollum did after that moment passed.
Aragorn did not hunt down Gollum, and Gandalf did not interrogate him, and the Elves did not attempt to imprison him until long after the alleged baby-killing. So there is no cause and effect.
Gandalf's worst mistake, for which he berates himself, was ignoring his hunch that Bilbo's ring was the One Ring. In part, Saruman is to blame for that, since he fed Gandalf false information. But Gandalf does not absolve himself, and if he had heeded the signs sooner perhaps Gollum would not have had the chance to kill any babies.
Now perhaps Gandalf should have found out if the rumors were true and either executed Gollum or absolved him of that particular crime. But in his defense, Gandalf has a particular task in Middle-earth. He isn't there to right every wrong, or to execute criminals.
And he also had a hunch that Gollum had a role to play in the unmaking of the Ring. Perhaps Gandalf made up for ignoring his first hunch by paying attention to his second.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 4:33am
Post #59 of 60
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Has anyone ever compared this chapter to the end of “The Wind in the Willows”?
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Where the heroes expel the weasels from Toad Hall?
Thank you, Laerasëa – nice week!
Last thought: I lately noticed some parallel dialogue by Merry and Saruman. From “The Road to Isengard”:
“The Lord Saruman is within; but at the moment he is closeted with one Wormtongue, or doubtless he would be here to welcome such honourable guests.”
And from this chapter:
“No doubt, no doubt! But you did not, and so I am able to welcome you home.” There standing at the door was Saruman himself, looking well-fed and well-pleased; his eyes gleamed with malice and amusement.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jul 31 2017, 7:14pm
Post #60 of 60
(768 views)
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"It climbed trees to find nests; it crept into holes to find the young; it slipped through windows to find cradles."
The line literally makes my blood boil. If only Bilbo, Aragorn, Gandalf, or the Elves had done what needed to be done then a lot of babies would still be alive.
Bilbo didn't have the imagination to foresee Gollum leaving his cavern and carrying out such activities. By the time that Aragorn captured Gollum and Gandalf was able to question him, these atrocities had already happened. Gandalf, Aragorn, the Wood-elves--none of them could bring those murdered children back.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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