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Noria
Hithlum
Sep 16 2024, 1:04pm
Post #26 of 85
(865 views)
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The broad principle this represents, where the ends justify the means, is shocking, but, hey it's just a TV show.
I usually don’t read your posts, because last I heard, you had never watched RoP. But since you responded to mine….
First, if Amazon has a policy promoting diverse hiring for its productions, then I applaud them.
Second, the fact is that there was a racist backlash amongst what I hope is a small minority of Tolkien fans to the casting of people of colour in RoP, most evident on the internet. I’ve seen that myself, even recently.
Apparently, Amazon used this to defend and promote RoP in some form or fashion, making lemonade out of lemons and turning the racist rhetoric back on its originators. The real downside was that they also took the opportunity to wash legitimate criticism into that mix.
Some among that internet fan community, who seem to believe that they represent the Tolkien fandom, were butt-hurt by this. Too bad. They don’t speak for all fans and are probably a small minority of Tolkien lovers. I’ve been a book lover for over 50 years and don’t speak for any other fan than myself. Too bad for me if no one pays any attention.
Third, I didn’t say that the end justifies the means. But what happened, happened. Don’t pretend to take the moral high ground. This is, as you say, just a TV show and essentially we’re talking about advertising, which we all know is inherently dishonest. It’s naïve to expect anything else.
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NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Sep 16 2024, 1:16pm
Post #27 of 85
(853 views)
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Is this really true? DGH has never watched the show and has a strong opinion in everything i read from him the last month? I was actually unaware of this crucial information but very good to know from now on.
P.S. i love how detractors jump into the subject that suits them staying away long enough from the original subject of this thread. Once a fool, never again
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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Junesong
Nargothrond
Sep 16 2024, 1:44pm
Post #28 of 85
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First of all - there's nothing wrong with having an opinion on something that you haven't watched. DGH has their reasons and they shouldn't be put on the dock and forced to defend themselves. They're a fan and the internet is full of content about ROP that makes it possible to get a really solid sense of its strengths and weaknesses and plenty of fuel for discussion.
Second of all - I think DGH is right about Amazon as a company. The more I hear about them the more I agree with the frustration.
My issue is with this specific DEI complaint. I've never really followed the extrapolation between the corporate policy and the show automatically being tainted. I reject the argument that the showrunners are operating under some agenda that trumps story (or even fidelity to what little source material they have)
When the dust settles on this show (if it's not cancelled - fingers and toes crossed) we will have seen the big plot pillars of the second age that Tolkien teased. From what we've seen so far they've been really creative about how those things all roll out - some of it is still shrouded in some mystery but things look good.
Criticize the writing? I'm with you. Criticize some of the acting? I'm on your side. Criticize the unnecessary mystery boxing, or the massaging of the lore to fit the show's plot, or the weird way they sometimes use maps really well and other times do things like the Mordor reveal? I'll shout along with you.
But tell me this show only cares about the AMAZON DEI mandate and all their plotting and casting is subservient to an "agenda" or that they are blaming fans for their own bad show - and I'll probably just shrug. Those things just don't hold up under evidence. They seem only possible to believe by a process of unnecessary extrapolation and assumptions about the motivations of the showrunners.
I know the internet is particularly sensitive to agendas and machinations at the moment - the culture war is white hot and everyone is being divided into sides. But when you look JUST at the show itself, I just don't see it.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Sep 16 2024, 2:38pm
Post #29 of 85
(836 views)
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i never said It is something wrong with that. Let me clarify by saying that i dont wish to have discussions about specific characters and scenes as they are displayed in the series with people who havent actually seen them, people who have never arrived at the series, and probably never will.I hope i have this right and doesnt offend anyone.
One thing that i really dont care is talking about DEI, or any other company's policy.I ve had enough of it for the rest of my life during the past 3-4 years.
I wish to talk about every second, every amazing writing, every bad writing, every character, and analyse as many scenes as possible drawing out the thematics of the series.
i believe all of us have the right to ignore posts, ignore detractos, ignore opinions that doesnt match our personal aesthetics. Nobody is forbidden to write his opinion about whatever he thinks is important to him ,but on the other hand nobody is forbidden to ignore/block/disregard opinions about things that considers totally unnecessary or irrelevant.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Sep 16 2024, 2:46pm
Post #30 of 85
(831 views)
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I believe you are missing the point
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"If you do not like her performance thats fine but the idea that these choices need to be explained by some plot device or background is to miss the point."
I am not saying that as actors they cannot play the role. It is simply that for a series that ignores lore and strains believability (Galadriel swimming across the ocean, Mousetrap volcano) Amazon could have introduced new lands and peoples to mitigate the anticipated reaction to DEI casting.
https://press.aboutamazon.com/...table-representation
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 16 2024, 2:55pm)
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Junesong
Nargothrond
Sep 16 2024, 3:00pm
Post #31 of 85
(823 views)
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"Amazon could have introduced new lands and peoples to mitigate the anticipated reaction to DEI casting."
I suppose this gets to the heart of things. Why mitigate that reaction? Why not just ignore it or rebuke it? Amazon has done both.
I don't think Amazon needs to defend or explain their casting choices. I also don't think they need to explain all diversity in the name of plausible world-building. I think it's a tragedy that fans critical of the show are lumped in with the racists and the trolls - but making hair splitting arguments about diverse casting makes it really hard to parse the nuance.
Does the show do things that stretch believability? Of course. You listed a few great examples of it.
But does the casting stretch believability? Not for me.
Does diverse casting set off alarm bells of "agendas" and "ideological evangelism" and "performative virtue" - yes. Everywhere. All the time.
In that context you can forgive us fans and even companies like Amazon and Disney for simply ignoring that criticism as culture war reactionism at best and ignorant racism at worst.
It's not really fair but it is understandable. This determination to not understand is starting to seem obtuse.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Sep 16 2024, 3:21pm
Post #32 of 85
(807 views)
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The viewpoint I am referencing is from the corporate decision making level
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I am not addressing specifically fan reactions but the decision making of Amazon.
If you want to reach the largest audience possible, purchase expensive rights to a story with well established lore and artistic representations ingrained in the public mind from calendar art to PJ movies, and have favorable ratings --- then make smart decisions.
I think it is admirable to bring new and unexpected peoples into the ME world but I think you have to lay out a believable origin story.
Look at Spiderman Universe....we have a widely known character description....and Sony came up with different origin stories for different Spidermen or Spiderwomen etc.
Where do these dark dwarves come from? Great story to be introduced.
Where did Arondir come from? Great story to be introduced.
I thing the audience would have accepted most of this without significant issue because they can say...."Ah, that makes sense..."
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 16 2024, 3:22pm)
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skyofcoffeebeans
Nargothrond
Sep 16 2024, 3:34pm
Post #33 of 85
(793 views)
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and irrelevant to the themes of the story that the showrunners are interested in telling. Including these origin stories would muddle the waters of the story they actually are interested in telling.
It's like asking Shakespeare to justify introducing drag queens into Romeo and Juliet when the male 16th century actor is actually just playing... Juliet.
You are all so fixed on actor's races and genders that you're missing the actual story being told in this show.
Michelle put this best below.
However to my central point. You are confusing the actor with the part.
Disa is not a South African Iranian Dwarf. She is an English actress of South African Iranian heritage playing one of Durins folk. If you do not like her performance thats fine but the idea that these choices need to be explained by some plot device or background is to miss the point.
Just as Prince Faisal was an Arab character played by an Englishmen in Lawrence of Arabia. An English actor was playing an Arab part.
This will be the third time I have made this point, go and see The Royal Shakespeare Company where exceptionally fine actors play roles which are entirely different to their ethnicity.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Sep 16 2024, 3:37pm
Post #34 of 85
(788 views)
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Hence my point, the evident failure of ROP
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On one hand, the PC crowd says no actors who are not authentic to the people represented.....John Wayne as Gengis Khan for example......except when we want to do so.
"It's unnecessary [In reply to] Quote | Reply To This Post
and irrelevant to the themes of the story that the showrunners are interested in telling."
Only if you want to ruin your series.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 16 2024, 3:40pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 16 2024, 3:40pm
Post #35 of 85
(782 views)
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I think it is admirable to bring new and unexpected peoples into the ME world but I think you have to lay out a believable origin story.
Look at Spiderman Universe....we have a widely known character description....and Sony came up with different origin stories for different Spidermen or Spiderwomen etc.
Where do these dark dwarves come from? Great story to be introduced.
Where did Arondir come from? Great story to be introduced.
I thing the audience would have accepted most of this without significant issue because they can say...."Ah, that makes sense..."
Arondir is a particularly good example of an element that could have been addressed more directly. In my head-canon, Arondir might be a member of the Laiqendi (Green-elves). The unusual design of his armor could certainly be explained that way, especially as it seems unique to his character.
We know so little about the Dwarfs of the Orocarni that Disa could have easily come from one of the four Houses that originated in that region. That would also go a long way towards explaining her relative lack of facial hair without violating the legendarium.
Tolkien was very specific in his description of the Fallohides and it will be interesting, to say the least, to see how they are handled in the show if they appear.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 16 2024, 3:46pm
Post #36 of 85
(782 views)
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Over and over again your completely missing the point.
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I am not addressing specifically fan reactions but the decision making of Amazon.
If you want to reach the largest audience possible, purchase expensive rights to a story with well established lore and artistic representations ingrained in the public mind from calendar art to PJ movies, and have favorable ratings --- then make smart decisions.
I think it is admirable to bring new and unexpected peoples into the ME world but I think you have to lay out a believable origin story.
Look at Spiderman Universe....we have a widely known character description....and Sony came up with different origin stories for different Spidermen or Spiderwomen etc.
Where do these dark dwarves come from? Great story to be introduced.
Where did Arondir come from? Great story to be introduced.
I thing the audience would have accepted most of this without significant issue because they can say...."Ah, that makes sense..."
There aren't any Dark Dwaves, or Dark Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the Sea Captain of Numenor is not a Maori Numerorian nor is their a Persian Healer amongst the Southlanders.
They are POC playing the roles of dwarves, ring makers and Sea Captains who had characteristics like stubbornness, steadfastness etc etc.
Sophie is actually a very good example of why you are completely missing the point her and Owain have fanastic chemistry and feel authentically Dwarven. However they are characters of full stature playing a Dwarf.
I am astonished that you can keep on portraying such a lack of understanding of what acting is about stop and think, for goodness sake; otherwise the only conclusion I will come to is it bothers you that they are not caucasian and the idea you have to explain their colour in some convoluted plot contrivance is actually deeply insulting to the players.
As for Galadriel and volcanos they have nothing at all to do with the topic. Morfydd is Welsh playing with received pronunciation is that inauthentic.
You obviously believe that if they had cast an entirely caucasian company the show would be a big hit. All of us see failings with the show and any lack of success is elsewhere.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 16 2024, 3:52pm)
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skyofcoffeebeans
Nargothrond
Sep 16 2024, 3:54pm
Post #37 of 85
(771 views)
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or, if not a fully caucasian set of players, demanding a 10 minute prologue
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... explaining why POC are in the show. why? what a waste of time!
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 16 2024, 3:57pm
Post #38 of 85
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You have a habit of making broad stabs at the success of the show.
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On one hand, the PC crowd says no actors who are not authentic to the people represented.....John Wayne as Gengis Khan for example......except when we want to do so.
"It's unnecessary [In reply to] Quote | Reply To This Post
and irrelevant to the themes of the story that the showrunners are interested in telling."
Only if you want to ruin your series.
And then specifically attributing it to casting. How about wait until it's cancelled or ends and then see how the dust settles. Or to put it another way have an open mind. All your posts indicate you know precisely why it's failing. Neither point can be judged at this juncture.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Sep 16 2024, 4:05pm
Post #39 of 85
(764 views)
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No, I understand your point but you are missing mine
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"There aren't any Dark Dwaves, or Dark Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the Sea Captain of Numenor is not a Maori Numerorian nor is their a Persian Healer amongst the Southlanders."
Yes, they are actors playing a role.....this is about LORE consistency and Audience Expectations....IF you want to create a successful series. I have no problem with Sophie other than her origin story. Showing her people arriving at Moria for the wedding would have been a great scene as a flashback when Elrond and Durin were reminiscing.
You can hire great actors for any production to play any role but if you don't appreciate some potential audience reception issues you are risking $$$$.
I think Otaku sums it up well.
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Junesong
Nargothrond
Sep 16 2024, 4:06pm
Post #40 of 85
(765 views)
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It does sound a lot like the argument is,
"Unless the colour of the actor is expained in-world, then it is unfaithful to Tolkien or evidence of DEI made paramount"
That's a bold claim. Do I have it right that that's what you're saying? (Not YOU Michelle - but the YOU who are arguing that side)
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
(This post was edited by Junesong on Sep 16 2024, 4:10pm)
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 16 2024, 4:06pm
Post #41 of 85
(760 views)
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O/S I have a very high regard for you and your posts are very detailed and accurate on the lore
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I think it is admirable to bring new and unexpected peoples into the ME world but I think you have to lay out a believable origin story.
Look at Spiderman Universe....we have a widely known character description....and Sony came up with different origin stories for different Spidermen or Spiderwomen etc.
Where do these dark dwarves come from? Great story to be introduced.
Where did Arondir come from? Great story to be introduced.
I thing the audience would have accepted most of this without significant issue because they can say...."Ah, that makes sense..." Arondir is a particularly good example of an element that could have been addressed more directly. In my head-canon, Arondir might be a member of the Laiqendi (Green-elves). The unusual design of his armor could certainly be explained that way, especially as it seems unique to his character. We know so little about the Dwarfs of the Orocarni that Disa could have easily come from one of the four Houses that originated in that region. That would also go a long way towards explaining her relative lack of facial hair without violating the legendarium. Tolkien was very specific in his description of the Fallohides and it will be interesting, to say the least, to see how they are handled in the show if they appear.
But remember Tolkien was an Edwardian and published the book 70 years ago. For any artist to hold fast to the Edwardian notions and post war values, which drove his thoughts and obsessions with detail, has now long past.
Any adaption is bound to reflect the changes since then, and one is that I doubt he would 'go there' on some of his distinctions if he was writing now.
I often think that what has saved Tolkien from getting torn down on the grounds of Racism and placing certain characteristics with good and evil is because his choices were, as you know better than me, driven by linguistic considerations.
The West is enlightened the East and South is proud and barbaric. Men were described as Swarthy. I have a feeling he would not have used those kind of mechanisms for differentiation today.
And just to remind ourselves how the real world has moved on Cate has recently said she was barely paid for Galadriel in the LOTR and much less than the men.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 16 2024, 4:08pm)
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Sep 16 2024, 4:07pm
Post #42 of 85
(760 views)
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Amazon is doing what it wants but it is their $$$ they are burning just to enhance Prime membership. It does not make for a great adaptation.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Sep 16 2024, 4:16pm
Post #43 of 85
(749 views)
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Simple, if the aim is to do an adaptation that respects the lore of the world presented
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by JRRT then making great deviations in characters, who are well described, is a financial risk and an audience acceptance risk.
The origin stories would have made the adaptation stronger for the audience to understand who these people are and where they came from....yes, there is a strong element of DEI as pronounced by Amazon. Yes, changing the lore is unfaithful to the world of Tolkien. The degree matters - film adaptations are expected to have some changes for continuity reasons etc.
Amazon - "Casting actors whose identity (gender, gender identity, nationality, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability) aligns with the character they will be playing."
Are they violating their own standards?
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 16 2024, 4:16pm
Post #44 of 85
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I entirely understand your point about it not being Lore.
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"There aren't any Dark Dwaves, or Dark Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the Sea Captain of Numenor is not a Maori Numerorian nor is their a Persian Healer amongst the Southlanders."
Yes, they are actors playing a role.....this is about LORE consistency and Audience Expectations....IF you want to create a successful series. I have no problem with Sophie other than her origin story. Showing her people arriving at Moria for the wedding would have been a great scene as a flashback when Elrond and Durin were reminiscing.
You can hire great actors for any production to play any role but if you don't appreciate some potential audience reception issues you are risking $$$$.
I think Otaku sums it up well.
I do understand the point you are making that it breaks with the Lore and risks the success of the series. I just think you're wrong. Have there been people affronted by the colour blind acting of course, but thats there problem and best for Amazon to ignore it or it would seem from caretaker exploit the bad publicity.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 16 2024, 4:18pm)
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 16 2024, 4:20pm
Post #45 of 85
(745 views)
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It is not, it is a reinvention on so many levels surely that is something we can all agree on.
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by JRRT then making great deviations in characters, who are well described, is a financial risk and an audience acceptance risk.
The origin stories would have made the adaptation stronger for the audience to understand who these people are and where they came from....yes, there is a strong element of DEI as pronounced by Amazon. Yes, changing the lore is unfaithful to the world of Tolkien. The degree matters - film adaptations are expected to have some changes for continuity reasons etc.
Amazon - "Casting actors whose identity (gender, gender identity, nationality, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability) aligns with the character they will be playing."
Are they violating their own standards?
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Sep 16 2024, 4:21pm
Post #46 of 85
(738 views)
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If it is a Reinvention cut ties to LOTR and call it Bezos World
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skyofcoffeebeans
Nargothrond
Sep 16 2024, 4:25pm
Post #47 of 85
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I'm not sure what your post has to do with mine, except with the question in the header.
To answer your question, yes, I have been a lifelong fan of Tolkien's body of work, including his published work, History of Lost Tales, Unfinished Tales, the History of Middle-earth series, etc.
Please do not make assumptions about me because I am enjoying the show and you are not.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Sep 16 2024, 4:27pm
Post #48 of 85
(729 views)
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Sl the lore is not important to you? Good to know.
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 16 2024, 4:27pm
Post #49 of 85
(730 views)
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Amazon is doing what it wants but it is their $$$ they are burning just to enhance Prime membership. It does not make for a great adaptation.
Just to offer a very simple and final point from my perspective. The casting of the Rings of Power in no way affects my enjoyment of the show. The casting of itself does not undermine the Lore nor do I find it distracting that many roles are taken by non caucasians without explanation as to their racial back ground because I assume they are just Men of The West, Elves and Durin's Dwarfs.
I think that does it. Have a pleasant rest of the day or evening wherever you are.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 16 2024, 4:29pm)
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skyofcoffeebeans
Nargothrond
Sep 16 2024, 4:27pm
Post #50 of 85
(727 views)
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Please do not make assumptions about me because I am enjoying the show and you are not.
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