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NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Sep 14 2024, 1:52pm
Post #1 of 85
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MIRIEL-ELENDIL-PHARAZON
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Miriel appears relatively indifferent in Tolkien's literature! In the series they decided and did well to give her the:"holy martyr" card. A parallel of the saints of the Christian religion.
Farazon is a done deal—the prophecy he reveals to his son about his doom essentially foreshadows the end of the Kingsmen and Numenor.Miriel's blindness was in essence the Valar's seal that Númenor had come to an end, that its fate was decided. Her blindness does not lead to Farazon's ascension, but it will be the carpet for Elendil's rise.
In the latter I believe they will give the same male characteristics that the great fictional heroes in modern American cinema have...it started with Aragorn, then it was Jon Snow in Game of Thrones...protagonists who do not really desire power, but the need makes them come forward.This seems to be the case with Elendil, who as leader of the faithful with the flag and compass of Tar-Miriel will lead his people to Middle-earth to effectively begin the age of men.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 14 2024, 2:44pm
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The blinding of Miriel did contribute to the ascension of Ar-Pharazon by making her look weak to many of the citizens of Numenor. I do like your comparison of Miriel to Christian saints; it was probably intentional (although I don't know if Tolkien had anything like that in mind).
We can see here why Pharazon was aged up in the series. He is starting to feel his mortality and isn't confident in his son being worthy of inheriting his legacy. It won't take much to fuel his resentment towards the immortality of the Elves and his growing disdain and hatred of the Valar.
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Sep 14 2024, 4:17pm
Post #3 of 85
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I am actually curious and have no knowledge at all if the showrunners have the rights to show us the book arc of Pharazon and the Kingsmen. If they do, that would be really exciting.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 14 2024, 6:19pm
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I am actually curious and have no knowledge at all if the showrunners have the rights to show us the book arc of Pharazon and the Kingsmen. If they do, that would be really exciting.
If Amazon does not have the rights to that story then there wouldn't be much point to making this show at all. It's pretty integral to the fall of Numenor!
“Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved.” - Tony Isabella
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NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Sep 14 2024, 6:35pm
Post #5 of 85
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I highly hope they have the rights to show us the full arc of Numenors fall. Otherwise, they can show us the fall slightly different maybe, BUT I really want to see Aman and the creation of... Forgotten's cave at the end. Fingers crossed!
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Sep 14 2024, 9:13pm
Post #6 of 85
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I highly hope they have the rights to show us the full arc of Numenors fall. Otherwise, they can show us the fall slightly different maybe, BUT I really want to see Aman and the creation of... Forgotten's cave at the end. Fingers crossed!
Whatever they have available from LOTR, including Appendices, and The Hobbit, plus anything else specially licensed at $1 million per word from Tolkien's primary sources. The latter is a sarcastically wild estimate, but maybe Jeff would pay it. The rest is invented fan-fiction.
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NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Sep 14 2024, 9:23pm
Post #7 of 85
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Every adaptation for me is fan fiction. Some are masterpieces, some are very good and some mediocre or plain bad. In the case of Numenors fall I would love to see a canon adaptation as much as possible, unless the showrunners due to the obstacle of rights offer us a different but nevetheless, exciting alternative version.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Sep 14 2024, 9:23pm)
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Sep 14 2024, 9:46pm
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Every adaptation for me is fan fiction.
Have you seen The Expanse TV series? I've read all the books and watched the TV series several times. Unlike ROP, I highly praise The Expanse, even with the changes made for the TV adaptation. In fact, I agree with the adaptation's changes, again unlike most adaptations. The "DEI," while there in great quantity, is invisible because it is so organic and faithful to the story. The authors of The Expanse books, Daniel Abraham and Ty Franck, were involved in the TV adaptation of the series as writers and producers. That made all the difference.
Where would you draw the line there?
For ROP, greater respect for The Message and the agenda (and Amazon Policy) than the original story is what makes the line so easy to find there, plus impossible access to Tolkien himself. Without him, they should just leave the story alone and get the rights to The Silmarillion and other texts or simply do not attempt a doomed production. Some writer-directors will write a script to star a specific actor in their movie and if they can't get them, don't make the movie. That's what should happen here with rights and ROP.
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NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Sep 15 2024, 8:24am
Post #9 of 85
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You seem to have made up your mind about a doomed production while i dont see it to be honest. You are talking about adaptations and how ROP doesnt understand obviously what that means. Here is our big difference and disagreement.
One of the things I really appreciate about ROP is how they set up stakes for each race that justify why they would work together and even accept the idea of using the rings. In the books, the powers and uses of the rings are kind of vague and abstract...and the motivations for the elves and dwarves are so similarly abstract that they seem disconnected from anything really relatable.
ROP does something clever here, they put both the elves and dwarves in existential crises that force the issue...that temporarily overrides their instinctual and cultural distrusts of each other for mutual benefit. Saying the rings allowed the dwarves to grow their fortunes is not terribly compelling or relatable. Cutting off their supply of light (for growing food), however, is a very real and tangible threat that they have to face.
Likewise, the elves aren't just perfecting their craftsmanship out of the pure pursuit of knowledge and power, they are also working to save their lifeline to Middle Earth. Not only are these narratives more relatable (a society faced with a very real and material threat that also threatens societal collapse), but they are existential and push the characters to do things they might have considered unthinkable...and to justify extreme and potentially disastrous actions out of neccessity...which is something we see all to often in our own world.
think that pulling the narratives forward like this really enriches our understanding of these stories in a way that is very human and relatable...which is something that, as much as I like them, more high-minded stories can sometimes lack.
This is just my opinion and why i think ROP is a very good adaptation.Literally only two things bother me in ROP. The uneven writing(sometimes amazing, sometimes the exact opposite, really bad) and having multiple storylines in one episode. That thing bothered me considerably in TTT and ROTK as well. If i had to say something in the showrunners would be exactly this. Confine 2 storylines at every episode and the pacing would be more engaging,compelling and exciting.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Sep 15 2024, 8:25am)
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Felagund
Nargothrond
Sep 15 2024, 10:32am
Post #10 of 85
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I enjoyed the 'Kemen's doom' plot device. I wonder if what the showrunners are going for is that his mother foresaw the undeath that Kemen would have to endure, as a (future) Nazgûl?
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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Noria
Hithlum
Sep 15 2024, 12:50pm
Post #11 of 85
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Which has helped to completely reconcile me to the Mithril/Tree plot.
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Junesong
Nargothrond
Sep 15 2024, 1:55pm
Post #12 of 85
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I'm with you. I hate when shows and movies make DEI the prime directive in their art. Representation is powerful in media, and important - but nothing is more important than a good story. Can good stories be diverse? Of course. Can you tell a good story and care a lot about DEI? Of course. I think we agree on this.
What is cringey and self-defeating is when agendas for positive social change become the primary focus and the story is of secondary concern. Everyone hates this - everyone is done a disservice when this happens. Does it happen? Yes.
But here's where I start getting confused by your post. You seem to be saying that ROP is obviously doing this. You rhetorically ask, "Where would you draw the line there?" and then answer it by saying that AMAZON/ROP's respect for DEI is so much greater than their respect for Tolkien's story that the line is easy to find.
As someone who is a huge fan of the show and has seen all the episodes multiple times - AND as someone who has a pretty keen radar for disingenuous, slacktavist performative DEI - I'm struggling to find any examples where this is true in the show?
Where does the show put its ideology above story? So far, I haven't agreed with all the writing choices - god knows - but I haven't seen anything like that. I'm actually shocked at how creative they are being to Tolkien's plot pillars while also inventing so much necessary detail around it. I find the casting to be really strong all around - except for maybe our new wheelbarrow pushing hobbit guy in Rhun - he's been a charisma vacuum so far.
Which parts stick out for you as obviously putting DEI above story?
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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NecromancerRising
Hithlum
Sep 15 2024, 2:24pm
Post #13 of 85
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for sure.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Sep 15 2024, 3:37pm
Post #14 of 85
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Which parts stick out for you as obviously putting DEI above story?
Amazon Studios Inclusion Policy and Playbook - the "Prime Directive" above story. The Expanse achieved the same thing without it.
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Sep 15 2024, 3:39pm)
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Noria
Hithlum
Sep 15 2024, 3:38pm
Post #15 of 85
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I’m interested in seeing examples as well.
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I can’t see where RoP is putting DEI above story because what we understand as skin colour/race isn’t the least bit of a factor in any of the storylines – it is never even mentioned. It exists only in the minds of the viewers, not in the story itself.
The only “races” that appear to exist are Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Men, Orcs etc. Some of the characters do stereotype and display prejudice against other groups on that basis, as happened in the books.
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skyofcoffeebeans
Nargothrond
Sep 15 2024, 9:04pm
Post #16 of 85
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i would also like to see specific examples
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because I’m struggling to think of even one cast member that feels out of place or where modern perceptions of race, ethnicity, or gender have entered the lexicon of the story at all.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Sep 16 2024, 1:12am
Post #17 of 85
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I think a lot of the issues raised could have been at least mitigated by a believable
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origin story for the various ethnic changes. Middle Earth is large and diverse in peoples and climates. Simply indicating Disa came from another dwarven people and the marriage was one of both political sensibility and actual love would have been easy enough.
Same thing with multiethnic elves.
Acting ability is still the main task but much of the controversy could have been at least anticipated and dealt with by simply showing how various tribes/clans etc. exist across Middle Earth.
I dislike the look of the Numenorians....who are supposed to be tall and the finest military in Middle Earth. In this show, most look like people picked up off of the street.
In many ways, same issues for the Elves. M. Clark is just too small for the character. She lacks the regal and innately powerful presence of the lore character required. Celebrimbor as portrayed is old and weak. I don't think he could swing a hammer.
I keep looking for a silver lining but this show just struggles with poor writing. The blatant line stealing is ridiculous.
Weta at least has a good look for Celebrimbor https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/2/22/Weta_Workshop_-_Annatar_and_Celebrimbor_%28Shadow_of_Mordor%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161207051735
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 16 2024, 1:19am)
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Noria
Hithlum
Sep 16 2024, 1:29am
Post #18 of 85
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Speaking for myself, I don’t care what Amazon’s hiring policies are for its productions, any more than I care about how the company may have used internet trolling to its advantage in promoting RoP. As far as I’m concerned, all that is irrelevant.
What’s relevant is the final product, in this case RoP itself, and I can’t see any adverse effects on this production. If anything, the diversity enriches it.
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 16 2024, 5:25am
Post #19 of 85
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More nuance more motive but still Tolkienesque
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I began responding to this yesterday but wanted to watch E5 one more time to confirm something.
Elven Rings
Early on this season the investment in the myth of the Hithaeglir bore leaf, rather than fruit, in the rejuvenation of the Tree of Lindon.As I have said before the myth connects the restoration with the Song of Yavanna. I believe, as Elrond said, it is merely a myth but the key is it emblematically joins the Mithril with the Silmaril's. Silmaril's which themselves led to the all the woes of Aman. The myth maybe a myth but Mithril in this reinvention is connected to the Silmaril's and helps underwrite the power and potency of the rings being forged and echoes the dangers of the Silmaril's. In Tolkiens world the Silmaril's and The Rings drove its history. To make a material link with this philosophical link is entirely logical.
Dwarven Rings
We now have another environmental issue which is driving the acquisition of the rings.
So their are strategic reasons that make sense that you have written about but also the rings have other qualities which are entirely consistent with Elven magic, the gift of foresight and prophesy, a more subtle understanding of the seen world and the unseen world and we are reminded of the legitimacy of this approach through the use of the seeing stone an example of Elven 'magic'.
Men (and woman).
The reason I wanted to watch S5 again was partly due to wanting to hear Annatar's plan for the rings of men. The nine are for men from Numenor to Rhun.
This hints at Saurons geographical reach in his ambitions for men and will led to a narrative where he ensnares men from across middle earth drawing Numenor and Rhun closer into the central narrative. With both Rhun and Numenor setting up characters, grievances and the like, with Isildiur stranded in middle earth and Elendil in danger S3 may draw the threads much more closely together and provide a most interesting story about some of the Men behind the Nine.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 16 2024, 5:28am)
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 16 2024, 5:43am
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They are not people of colour characters they are people of colour actors.
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origin story for the various ethnic changes. Middle Earth is large and diverse in peoples and climates. Simply indicating Disa came from another dwarven people and the marriage was one of both political sensibility and actual love would have been easy enough.
Same thing with multiethnic elves.
Acting ability is still the main task but much of the controversy could have been at least anticipated and dealt with by simply showing how various tribes/clans etc. exist across Middle Earth.
I dislike the look of the Numenorians....who are supposed to be tall and the finest military in Middle Earth. In this show, most look like people picked up off of the street.
In many ways, same issues for the Elves. M. Clark is just too small for the character. She lacks the regal and innately powerful presence of the lore character required. Celebrimbor as portrayed is old and weak. I don't think he could swing a hammer.
I keep looking for a silver lining but this show just struggles with poor writing. The blatant line stealing is ridiculous.
Weta at least has a good look for Celebrimbor https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/2/22/Weta_Workshop_-_Annatar_and_Celebrimbor_%28Shadow_of_Mordor%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161207051735
I will not comment on your remarks about Morfydd and Charles.
There is a more general point that has been discussed elsewhere that these portrayals are not the majestorial ancient beings of Tolkien's creation they are mere mortals playing in a fallen world capturing some of their dilemma's in a human relatable way. Neither are the Numenorian's those of the book. They are very skilled ordinary men.
If you do not like that fine, but they all suffer from being mortal. Arondir comes closest to being otherworldly and Miriel long aged.
However to my central point. You are confusing the actor with the part.
Disa is not a South African Iranian Dwarf. She is an English actress of South African Iranian heritage playing one of Durins folk. If you do not like her performance thats fine but the idea that these choices need to be explained by some plot device or background is to miss the point.
Just as Prince Faisal was an Arab character played by an Englishmen in Lawrence of Arabia. An English actor was playing an Arab part.
This will be the third time I have made this point, go and see The Royal Shakespeare Company where exceptionally fine actors play roles which are entirely different to their ethnicity.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 16 2024, 5:46am)
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 16 2024, 5:48am
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This post gave me 15 minutes of my life back so I do not need to say the same thing
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Speaking for myself, I don’t care what Amazon’s hiring policies are for its productions, any more than I care about how the company may have used internet trolling to its advantage in promoting RoP. As far as I’m concerned, all that is irrelevant.
What’s relevant is the final product, in this case RoP itself, and I can’t see any adverse effects on this production. If anything, the diversity enriches it.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Sep 16 2024, 6:15am
Post #22 of 85
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Speaking for myself, I don’t care what Amazon’s hiring policies are for its productions, any more than I care about how the company may have used internet trolling to its advantage in promoting RoP. As far as I’m concerned, all that is irrelevant.
What’s relevant is the final product, in this case RoP itself, and I can’t see any adverse effects on this production. If anything, the diversity enriches it.
The broad principle this represents, where the ends justify the means, is shocking, but, hey it's just a TV show.
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Sep 16 2024, 6:52am
Post #23 of 85
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I am going to make this simple for you. Noria can speak for herself and anybody else.
I am here to discuss what is on the screen and how it affects me.
You have been offering the same two thoughts on the forum, or are driven by the same two thoughts, for over two years. You may well have another six to go.
What is abundantly clear is you have nothing to say about the show which isn't either motivated or about those two thoughts.
There are some extremely nuanced and rich exchanges being had, reflecting on the very interesting narratives that are developing in S2, that I sense we are all enjoying. I would encourage everyone else not to be deterred from continuing those most interesting exchanges.
I get your mock indignation and its attempt to bait, but I am not Celebrimbor. So I will not be forging the nine so to speak.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 16 2024, 6:53am)
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Junesong
Nargothrond
Sep 16 2024, 11:34am
Post #24 of 85
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So is it fair to say that there are no examples of ROP putting DEI above story? It seems like the fact that Amazon has a diversity policy is the ballgame. But I'm not sure why.
I think you can put story first even if you work at a company with a policy like that. ROP has cast many diverse actors in different roles and hasn't made the story about that diversity at all. It's just there. And for most of us we follow the story without a second thought.
For others of us - the diversity seems forced without explanation. I'm not sure why. But that seems to be what you guys are saying. I suppose I can get behind that from a world building point of view.
Not sure how that extrapolates into a CLEAR and OBVIOUS case of a company putting DEI above story.
I guess I'll go further. The more this show is on the air the less I can really understand your complaints. They don't seem to be founded in evidence so much as founded in feelings.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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TFP
Menegroth
Sep 16 2024, 12:20pm
Post #25 of 85
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I'm not noticing it much this season.
I suppose I'm not getting getting any of the added immersiveness that you can sometimes get from casting two people who look very similar as members of the same tribe or family. the remarkably similar-looking Kelsey Grammer & David Hyde Pierce playing siblings in Frasier would be the textbook example of this.
But I'm not finding any of the casting jarring at all.
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