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DainPig
Mithlond
Dec 7 2015, 2:26am
Post #1 of 21
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Why is Boromir's death at the beginning of TTT, but not at the end of FOTR?
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This is something I don't understand in the books, why does Boromir die at the beginning of The Two Towers. It would be perfect if Boromir died at the end of the first book, then we would have a breaking of the fellowship.
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
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Dain Ironfoot has come!! And his pig's here too! It's going to be a great feast tonight, we are gonna eat Dain's pig! :0
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squire
Gondolin
Dec 7 2015, 2:43am
Post #2 of 21
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It builds tension that we don't know what's going to happen to Boromir now that he's fallen to the Ring
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The end of Book II is a cliffhanger - Frodo and Sam take off to the East, and we have no idea what's going to happen to the rest of the company. Is Boromir going to fight Aragorn? - there's a lot of tension between the two when Boromir returns to the company after attacking Frodo, and we now know that Tolkien seriously considered having Boromir go completely over the dark side, as it were, leading a rebellion in Minas Tirith against Aragorn's return. This ending leaves that possibility horrifyingly open. Then, are there orcs nearby, or aren't there? - what were those shouts and cries Sam heard and ignored as he raced back to find Frodo at the boats?
Remember that when people bought the first book, the next one wasn't even published yet!
So Boromir's actual death, at the beginning of Book III, is an unexpected end to a promising plot line. It wouldn't have built suspense had it been depicted at the end of the first volume. For whatever reasons, the New Line people chose to end the first film with a sense of relative closure, almost a happy ending. Tolkien did not write it that way.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Dec 7 2015, 8:26am
Post #3 of 21
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at the beginning of Vol.II, 'The Two Towers', it says that the story of FR ended with an attack by orc-soldiers, some in the service of the Dark Lord in Mordor, others in the service of Saruman of Isengard. * Though of course we're not told that in FR.
Dainpig - FR does finish up with the breaking of the Fellowship, of course - Frodo and Sam leave for Mordor.
*this only applies in the 3-volume ed.
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 7 2015, 1:17pm
Post #5 of 21
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As was attested here by two people who should know.
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balbo biggins
Nargothrond
Dec 7 2015, 4:04pm
Post #6 of 21
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the completing subplot saves frodo when he is captured in cirith ungol, pretty important id say!
the ending of FOTR is brilliant its perfect for wanting to jump straight into the next book, its a cliffhanger!!!! everyone is dispersed and we dont know whats going to happen. i think people watch the films too much and just acept thats the only way things can play out, which is mighty sad.
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enanito
Nargothrond
Dec 7 2015, 8:57pm
Post #8 of 21
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I'm wondering if anyone remembers reading the books first-time and being surprised at finding these details out via the synopsis?
I seem to tend to avoid reading synopses, forwards, back-of-the-book teases, chapter titles, reviews, and the like, during my first-time readings. I know others devour them, enjoying how they help them to begin the story with a leg-up, so to speak.
Roundabout way of saying by the time I first read this synopsis I'm sure I had already read the entire trilogy and was going through it again, and like many I've never noticed this cool detail mentioned here.
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 7 2015, 9:06pm
Post #9 of 21
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Some time ago, See questions 5 and 6 here.
And I did notice this before - but never raised the point until he did. But I did mention it since, in the context of the movie.
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enanito
Nargothrond
Dec 7 2015, 10:07pm
Post #10 of 21
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I always feel it's like trying to take a drink from a fire hydrant, but I appreciate those longer-time forum members who help point us to interesting posts-from-the-past. Although trying to process all that info sometimes threatens to fry my limited mental disk storage :)
I surely don't have enough time to read through all the past forum discussions, but having people post links like this is great so that when I have the time and a topic is especially interesting to me, I can dig a little deeper.
Thanks!
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rangerfromthenorth
Ossiriand
Dec 7 2015, 10:20pm
Post #11 of 21
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I think both endings work well for their respective mediums
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I think the ending of the Fellowship in the movies, with Boromir's death in particular, is one of the best scenes in all of PJ's work. I think it works perfectly in the film version, as does the book version work perfectly for a book, again, different mediums of telling stories.
If only PJ would have had Fili, Kili, and Thorin's death scenes closer to how he did Boromir's, then perhaps the BotFA would have been a more tolerable movie.
Not all those who wander are lost
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Dec 8 2015, 1:22pm
Post #12 of 21
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I agree with that (and some comments from the recent read-through of this chapter)
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We discussed this in the recent read-through of Book III - here are some excerpts for folks who missed it:
Placement. It is peculiar to me that Tolkien chose to place this scene at the beginning of his second book and make it his opening sequence, whereas Peter Jackson chose to place it at the end of his first movie. I think it says a lot that Tolkien chose to open his second book with this scene because it sets the stage for the rest of the story. This is the Breaking of the Fellowship, the turning point for Aragorn (to be discussed in Reason 4), and the character of Boromir is fresh in the readers minds for when they are introduced to Faramir at the beginning of the second half of the book. Reason 4- Aragorn’s humanity. ... MirielCelebel http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=871756#871756
And then later in the discussion...
So happy someone else brought up the film/book difference... I mentioned it briefly in my analysis of the chapter but I think it is important. Shadowdog had a good point that the battle scene is much more elaborated in the film and that is probably, simply put, because PJ loves action sequences, and in his original trilogy succeeded in doing very epic and believable battles. I agree, noWizard, that the Fellowship deliberately allows Frodo to escape in the film and I think it showed the camaraderie of the group as a whole. Each film, as with each book, needed a story arc (an introduction/recap, a body, and a conclusion). We meet the Fellowship, individually and watch their relationship with one another grow through trials, and the culmination of that relationship is found in the final events of the first film when they bond together to let Frodo escape, Boromir dies saving Merry and Pippin, and Aragorn forges his friendship with Legolas and Gimli even further in their pursuit of the orcs. PJ thus sets up the next movie quite nicely. I think by Tolkien opening in the middle of this sequence he is sending just as powerful a message. The next book opens amid chaos and confusion. No one really knows what's happening, Frodo has left, Boromir dies, and Aragorn is forced to make a drastic decision. The readers are immediately drawn into this scenario and wish to see it through to the end. That is my personal opinion of why and how the book/film was organized. MirielCelebel http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=871907#871907
Don't think I can put it better than MirielCelebel did- the placement Tolkien chose launches Book III (which I think of as very much 'The Aragorn Book') on a crisis point for Aragorn, and highlights how out of control everything is.
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Two Towers Read-through Book IV: Schedule and appeal for volunteers to lead the chapters which are as yet unclaimed: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886370#886370
The Book III read-through links!:
week started # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
13-Sep-15 # I # The Departure of Boromir # MirielCelebel http://goo.gl/zpn7Rg
20-Sep-15 # II # The Riders of Rohan # Brethil (Part 1) http://goo.gl/yKNv7E (2) http://goo.gl/mxesBG
27-Sep-15 # III # The Uruk-hai # cats16 http://goo.gl/LUWJi1
04-Oct-15 # IV # Treebeard # Mikah http://goo.gl/2CqCXS
11-Oct-15 # V # The White Rider # Entwife Wandlimb http://goo.gl/VXb2Ni
18-Oct-15 # VI # The King of the Golden Hall # squire (Part 1) http://goo.gl/cpEvnI, (2) http://goo.gl/BBTzvR, (3) http://goo.gl/yN7QLq, (4) http://goo.gl/7726S3 (5) http://goo.gl/VC7Abc
25-Oct-15 # VII # Helm's Deep # arithmancer (Part 1) http://goo.gl/E6gVUC, (2) http://goo.gl/5aRuq0
01-Nov-15 # VIII # The Road to Isengard # Darkstone (Part 1)http://goo.gl/rdE1xG (2) http://goo.gl/54rxDw (3)http://goo.gl/Y0ZDwz (4) http://goo.gl/XVgXCx (5) http://goo.gl/Ph0O7k
08-Nov-15 # IX # Flotsam and Jetsam # Enanito (Part 1) http://goo.gl/GddHbU (2) http://goo.gl/5Z6MQU
15-Nov-15 # X # The Voice of Saruman # jochenkeen (Part 1) http://goo.gl/1voDsc (2)http://goo.gl/JONRh2 (3) http://goo.gl/EIeL6B
22-Nov-15 # XI # The Palantir # Elizabeth (Part 1) http://goo.gl/m4SYVO (2) http://goo.gl/7rB38s (3)http://goo.gl/cI7Vmt (4) http://goo.gl/KC4bkT
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Dec 8 2015, 7:59pm
Post #13 of 21
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Actually, the competing-orc subplot is more complex than Tolkien touched on in the synopsis. There were three groups of orcs at Parth Galen, not two - there were Northerners as well; some of them got the chop just after the orcs left the Emyn Muil. These orcs came from Moria; they were out for revenge. As for the quarrel between Ugluk and Grishnakh, there was always a tension as to where Merry and Pippin would end up; Isengard (bad) or Lugburz (aka Barad-dur =very, very bad).
Tolkien wrote out a whole 'scheme' for his book, to refer to as he went along. This consists of a series of dates, and what various characters were doing on these days. Some of these went into App. B, 'The Tale of Years. But a lot didn't. Hammond and Scull make use of this 'scheme' quite a bit in their book 'The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Guide'. Here we find out that some Moria orcs high-tailed it to Isengard to tell Saruman what was going on; that on Jan 24th Gollum was captured by Ugluk and tortured, but escaped; that Ugluk sent word to Saruman that there were hobbits in the Fellowship, along with Gandalf (but no mention of the Ring) - that sort of thing.
There's a lot of wonderful info in this book.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 9 2015, 1:19am
Post #14 of 21
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I seem to have made the same point nine months earlier in my comments on Amy Sturgis's "The Lord of the Rings" article in the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment. There I noted that this was not the first time Tolkien described Boromir's death as happening in the first volume.
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 10 2015, 4:08am
Post #15 of 21
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I will have to find the time to read it properly - and also to reply properly to geordie, below in this thread.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Dec 14 2015, 7:27am
Post #16 of 21
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Yes, the Fellowship dallied for a month in Lorien. But, still, for all these messages to have reached Orthanc and results come back seems to me to be stressing the timeline (which I knew Tolkien took seriously). Are they sending messages by Crebain?
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Dec 14 2015, 8:49am
Post #17 of 21
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- yes, Moria sent messages by birds, but they went to Barad-dur, some 680 miles as the crow flies. Sauron heard the news in 3 days and despatched Grishnakh and some Orcs of Mordor.
But Saruman got the news from Moria orcs who ran the 260 miles to Isengard in less than 3 days. (Jan. 18th). All the dates are given; the Moria orcs returned to Moria on Jan. 22 and gathered a strong force; they could not penetrate Lorien but lurked outside watching the river-exit. Isengarders captured Gollum on Jan.24th. And so on, up to Feb.25th, when Grishnakh and Ugluk meet up in western Emyn Muil. (Scull & Hammond pp.360-361)
The dates continue for a couple of days on p.379, where Tolkien gives a summary of how fast and far orcs can go in a day, with rests (80 miles per diem) - Scull & Hammond take these 'scheme' notes from the Marquette files.
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moreorless
Mithlond
Dec 17 2015, 8:15am
Post #18 of 21
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Interestinmg how it differs from other LOTR cliffhangers though...
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the completing subplot saves frodo when he is captured in cirith ungol, pretty important id say!
the ending of FOTR is brilliant its perfect for wanting to jump straight into the next book, its a cliffhanger!!!! everyone is dispersed and we dont know whats going to happen. i think people watch the films too much and just acept thats the only way things can play out, which is mighty sad.
I see a fundamental difference between the cliffhanger at the end of FOTR and those at both the end of TTT and at the end of book 5 in ROTK.
Those latter two cliff-hangers are really totally independent on the decision to spilt LOTR into three books, they would function just as well if the entire thing had been released as one book.
The FOTR cliffhanger on the other hand would only really linger if with the spilt to three books since its resolved almost right away at the start of the next sub book.
Was this just a coincidence and Tolkien never really intended it "linger"? were any changes made after the decision to spilt into three books?
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enanito
Nargothrond
Dec 17 2015, 2:44pm
Post #19 of 21
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Partial FOTR cliffhanger resolution
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The FOTR cliffhanger on the other hand would only really linger if with the spilt to three books since its resolved almost right away at the start of the next sub book. Isn't the FOTR "cliffhanger" only partially resolved at the start of Book III ? We jump right into the 3 Hunters tale, but leave the fate Frodo and Sam hanging in the balance all the way until the start of Book IV. So for those wanting to know what's up with Frodo, Sam, the Ring, Mordor, if Gollum followed Frodo, if there's Orcs on the other side of the Anduin, whether those Nazgul flying overhead know the Fellowship has split up, etc. -- the cliffhanger is still in effect.
Just thinking that even in a single book, a good chunk of the FOTR cliffhanger would still "linger".
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Dec 17 2015, 4:08pm
Post #20 of 21
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Typical of any Anglo-Saxon storyteller.
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For example, Beowulf has 43 cliffhangers, understandable for a skald wishing to keep the interest of his audience keen over several storytelling sessions.
Perhaps the ultimate in Anglo-Saxon cliffhangers is the poem "The Battle of Maldon. Its ending has been lost. But a thousand years later Tolkien kindly resolved the cliffhanger with "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son".
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Cunir
Registered User
Jan 4 2016, 12:02am
Post #21 of 21
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I'm wondering if anyone remembers reading the books first-time and being surprised at finding these details out via the synopsis?
I read the books years ago, and am now surprised to find out that boromir didnt die at the same time as in the movies!
the movie plot has lodged itself in my head so much i have forgotten the book
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