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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Dec 17 2007, 7:26pm
Post #1 of 7
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Inspiration for Aragorn's Morannon speech?
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From Völuspá (The Phophecy of the Seeress) the first poem of the Old Norse Poetic Edda:
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
an age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
an age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
no man will spare another.
(Original:
Brśđr muno beriaz oc at bönum verđaz,
muno systrungar sifiom spilla;
hart er í heimi, hórdómr mikill,
sceggöld, scálmöld, scildir ro klofnir,
vindöld, vargöld, áđr verold steypiz;
mun engi mađr öđrom ţyrma.)
Note that this is the same source that inspired a few of Tolkien's character names
Mótsognir rose, mightiest ruler
Of the kin of dwarfs, but Durin next;
Molded many manlike bodies
The dwarfs under earth, as Durin bade them.
Nýi and Nithi, Northri and Suthri,
Austri and Vestri, Althjólf, Dvalin,
Nár and Náin, Níping, Dáin,
Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Nóri,
Án and Onar, Ái, Mjóthvitnir.
Veig and Gandálf, Vindálf, Thráin,
Thekk and Thorin, Thrór, Vit, and Lit,
Nár and Regin, Nýráth and Ráthsvith;
Now is reckoned the roster of dwarfs.
Fíli, Kíli, Fundin, Náli,
Heptifíli, Hanar, Svíur,
Frár, Hornbori, Frćg and Lóni,
Aurvang, Jari, Eikinskjaldi.
The dwarfs I tell now in Dvalin's host,
Down to Lofar -- for listening wights --
They who hied them from halls of stone
Over sedgy shores to sandy plains.
There was Draupnir and Dólgthrasir,
Hár and Haugspori, Hlévang, Glói,
Skirvir, Virvir, Skafith, Ái,
Álf and Yngvi, Eikinskjaldi,
Fjalar and Frosti, Finn and Ginnar.
Will ever be known, while earth doth last,
The lines of dwarfs to Lofar down.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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weaver
Gondolin
Dec 18 2007, 2:14am
Post #2 of 7
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I've always wondered about that speech...
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I skimmed through the book and if Aragorn says these lines, or something similar to them, in the text, but I could not find them. Did I miss it somehow?
Do Jackson and company talk about the inspiration for the speech in the Commentaries? I confess, I have not listened to the commentaries for ROTK.
The source you've found here is certainly intriguing...would the screenwriters be familiar with it? I don't know, but the wording is so similiar, it does seem to fit...
???
Weaver
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Dec 18 2007, 4:51am
Post #3 of 7
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Something kept tugging on my memory. I kept thinking "Somewhere in Shakespeare?" Then as I was answering Curious' Beowulf questions it hit me. "Aha!!"
I skimmed through the book and if Aragorn says these lines, or something similar to them, in the text, but I could not find them. Did I miss it somehow?
No, it's not in the book, though Aragorn does give similar rather back-handed inspirational speech that bolsters the courage of his brothers from Gondor and Rohan in spite of themselves:
Aragorn looked at them, and there was pity in his eyes rather than wrath; for these were young men from Rohan, from Westfold far away, or husbandmen from Lossarnach, and to them Mordor from childhood had been a name of evil, and yet unreal, a legend that had no part in their simple life; and now they walked like men in a hideous dream made true, and they understood not this war nor why fate should lead them to such a pass.
'Go!' said Aragorn. 'But keep what honour you may, and do not run! And there is a task which you may attempt and so be not wholly shamed. Take your way south-west till you come to Cair Andros, and if that is still held by enemies, as I think, then re-take it, if you can; and hold it to the last defence of Gondor and Rohan!'
Then some being shamed by his mercy overcame their fear and went on, and others took new hope, hearing of a manful deed within their measure that they could turn to, and they departed. And so, since many men had already been left at the Cross Roads, it was with less than six thousands that the Captains of the West came at last to challenge the Black Gate and the might of Mordor.
Do Jackson and company talk about the inspiration for the speech in the Commentaries?
Unfortunately no.
The source you've found here is certainly intriguing...would the screenwriters be familiar with it?
Hey, I knew about it and I'm just a simple country boy. It'd be rather presumptuous of me to assume I'm better read and more educated than three professional writers put together! 
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 18 2007, 5:02am
Post #4 of 7
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Does Philippa Boyens answer fan letters?
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Or Fran Walsh or Peter Jackson, for that matter? So much of Tolkien's intentions concerning LotR was learned through correspondence. Why couldn't the same be true for these films?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 17-23 for "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony".
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Sunflower
Doriath
Dec 18 2007, 9:16am
Post #5 of 7
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...dost mine eyes deceive me? Dare there be a little bit of honest repectful inquiry here?
I agree though. Why don't you try writing to them? I wish I knew an address though. Someone help?
All I can say is, I don't remember where I read it (it may have been Cineaste magazine, or Cinefantesque) but Viggo Mortensen seems to have walked barefoot off the plane to NZ, with a few (reportedly) unread tomes from his bookshelf in his luggage. Which did not remain unread for long. The Kalevala (sp?) in Dutch was one of them. Maybe the Edda was another. Dutch is one of the four languages he is fluent in--he is "conversational" in at least six others. I don't know if Russian was one of those six or if it has recently become the seventh.
(This post was edited by Sunflower on Dec 18 2007, 9:22am)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Dec 18 2007, 7:35pm
Post #6 of 7
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Personally I'm 100% convinced that you've found a genuine source of inspiration for Aragorn's speech. The similarities are too many to be coincidence (especially as some of the phrases are quite unusual):
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
an age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
an age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
no man will spare another.
My brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship. But it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down.
I also suspect that Sunflower has hit on the answer to how this passage from the Poetic Edda came to the attention of the filmmakers. It's well known that PJ the anti-auteur welcomed creative input from his actors, and that Viggo Mortensen in particular provided a lot of ideas. It's easy to imagine that he read this and saw the potential for the speech he had to give at the Black Gate. I had vaguely wondered where the speech got such imagery, and why Aragorn develops this negative theme of failure and defeat before turning it on its head with his "But it is not this day!" Now I see that the vision is based on a prophecy of a terrible time of apocalypse not unlike what would happen if Sauron were to win. Aragorn is describing Sauron's victory and then defying it.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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weaver
Gondolin
Dec 21 2007, 1:28am
Post #7 of 7
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You know, when he starts this speech, it's such a downer you wonder why all the guys didn't just cut and run right then!
But the real value of it is to get these guys to feel that there is something "worse" than what they are about to face. And to remind that they even if they don't win, they won't be defeated if they stick together.
In a way, it's the "kingly" version of the speech he gave to Legolas and Gimli at the end of FOTR -- "not if we hold true to each other", etc. Just like the Shire theme evolves into such a grand theme at the end, when you hear it at the coronation, Aragorn's words evolve with his leadership.
Yes, it's a great speech and I bet Viggo had much to do with it...
Weaver
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