|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jan 6 2008, 11:57pm
Post #1 of 29
(2475 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Costume Notes RE:Thorin's company
|
Can't Post
|
|
observations regarding the "best detachable party hoods"
(1) THORIN: sky blue with a silver tassle. (2)FILI & (3)KILI also with blue hoods (of a different shade) that share certain design details with Thorin's as a sign of their being of Durin's Line.
(4) BALIN: a scarlet hood sharing design details with the dark green hood of (5) DWALIN, his brother.
(6) DORI: a purple hood very similar to the purple hood of (7) NORI and the grey hood of (8) ORI but also sharing common design elements with the brown hood of (9) OIN and the white hood of (10) GLOIN. Oin and Gloin are often potrayed as a TweedleDee and TeedleDum or forming a sort of yin/yang whole. The hood of one may in some ways reflect an inversion of style and color of the other (i.e. a brown hood with white detailing countering white hood with brown detailing)
(11) BOMBUR: a pail green hood sharing similar design details to the yellow hoods of (12) BIFUR and (13) BOFUR.
Design detail differentiation of the dwarven costumes ought to reinforce familial realtionships.
Subtle differences between the costume of Nori (in comparison to Ori) and Bifur (in comparison to Bofur) might oh-so-slyly hint at the possibility that these two are female, a possibility hinted at by Tolkien's writing and Jackson's films.
|
|
|
Urambo Tauro
Ossiriand
Jan 7 2008, 12:31am
Post #2 of 29
(2127 views)
Shortcut
|
Well put together!
I particularly like the idea of relating design details between dwarves (Balin & Dwalin, etc.).
The colours will, of course, have to be toned down to avoid an overcolourful, cartoony look. (Dirt and distress will do part of this nicely.) Dwalin, Ori and Oin already have the most modest colours of the group.
I expect Thorin's garb to be quite impressive.
Some of the familial relationships may also be subtly hinted at by the braiding styles or arrangment of their beards.
(This post was edited by Urambo Tauro on Jan 7 2008, 12:35am)
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 7 2008, 1:12am
Post #3 of 29
(2141 views)
Shortcut
|
|
What in Tolkien's "The Hobbit" hints that Bifur and Nori are female? //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
We're on hiatus Dec. 24-Jan. 6 for the holidays.
Join us Jan. 7-13 for "Strider".
|
|
|
carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jan 7 2008, 11:23am
Post #5 of 29
(2173 views)
Shortcut
|
I have to ask the same as Brigand... where does Tolkien hint at any dwarf being female? 
Well first look at what Tolkien gives us in Appendix A
"Dis..she is the only dwarf-woman, named in these histories"
"There are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people"
"They seldom walk abroad except at great need"
"They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes of other peoples cannot tell them apart...
"the kind of the dwarves is in peril when they have no secure dwelling."
One might ask, why does Tolkien even give us this information? Where does this come into play in his tale? Well, all these scraps of information call to mind the circumstances of Thorin's Company...except the first about Dis. That item would seem to be saying none of Thorin's company could have been female. But firstly, "named in these histories" can be read as saying Dis is the only dwarf 'revealed' to be a woman. Why is Tolkien choosing to be coy? Then notice that most Thorin's company are NOT named in the Tolkien's HISTORY on Durin's Folk, but are only mentoned in a footnote to the family tree of Durin's Line. At this point, one might begin to wonder if the good Professor is putting us on.
Which might send the curious to reread the Hobbit with an eye toward more clues (or at least more jokes!). Sure enough, not all the dwarves are specifically described as having beards. And then note Tolkien's use of personal pronouns. There are several of the company (I think Bifur and Nori are among them) whom, at no point in this rambling adventure, the author NEVER applies the singular masculine pronouns: he, him, his. There are, I admit, at least two occasions where Tolkien's these pronouns to describe the actions of all of the dwarves in series...something like "each member of the company looked to his heart..". But accepted usage, in Tolkien's day, accepted this usage to a group of mixed gender. Tricky Perfesser! Not idly do the pronouns of an Oxford don fail.
Then of course, Peter Jackson/Walsh/Boyens picked up on the joke and ran with it in the conversation between Gimli, Aragorn and Eowyn on the road out of Dunharrow.
So I think I'm on solid ground for suggesting the proposed films might keep this long running joke going a while.
I'm not saying it has to be overt...we don't need some big reveal scene (Bifur coming out dressed as Queen Victoria after the Throne of Erebor is restored .)..in fact, I'd much prefer it to be a little detail that would come in under the radar of most casual viewers. One major aim of the Quest of Erebor is to restore the dwarven society and ALL THAT ENTAILS. It isn't bowing to "political correctness" to play off the idea that there might be a female in Thorin's Company. That possibility has ALWAYS been there.
Also, go back and check out some of the Dwarves in the Rankin&Bass version of the Hobbit. There are one or two members of the company who never speak and keep their faces obscured with scarves. In other words, I'm saying someone involved in that production also honored this little joke...and it went right over everybodys head.
As for why I think Bifur and Nori are the most likely:. Aside from the reasons outlined above, I'd note that these two have a few curious things in common...they each travel in the company of TWO near relatives (some extra precaution?) and they each travel with a brother (or cousin) who wears a hood that matches their own. (this business of having a 'body double' could be yet another precaution)
|
|
|
sador
Gondolin
Jan 7 2008, 12:24pm
Post #6 of 29
(2110 views)
Shortcut
|
I've actually spent some time to look up the sentence in "Flies and Spiders" were Bombur leans on "Bifur his cousin and Bofur his brother", and you have got it right.
The only problem is a possible abuse of the two, to add some romantic sub-plots.
Anyway, nice thinking!
|
|
|
burrahobbit
Nargothrond
Jan 7 2008, 12:44pm
Post #7 of 29
(2134 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Dwarf women with beards really would be a joke...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The success of the Hobbit relies on making the dwarven race convincing. Having unknown dwarven women hiding away would just make the film a ridiculous parody for me, making me think of Terry Pratchett's jokes, or even the stoning scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian. Just think about it, The Lord of the Rings had the beautiful Arwen and Galadriel, but in the Hobbit we're going to go one better with Bifur and Nori! 
You may be right that Tolkien had unnamed female dwarf characters, but the films should not 'run with this joke'. I think Tolkien wrote the dwarf women section of the appendices to try and explain why he had written no female dwarf characters, and it remains pretty unconvincing.
For me the makers of the Hobbit have two options:
Ignore the question of dwarf women completely
OR
Show dwarf women openly as women (of short and stocky variety), perhaps in the scene showing Erebor before Smaug arrives. I don't think any dwarf women should be in Thorin's party.
And another dwarf joke they should get rid of is any mention of tossing. This has very bad connotations in my part of the world!
|
|
|
acheron
Mithlond
Jan 7 2008, 4:48pm
Post #8 of 29
(2122 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"the stoning scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian"
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
taken from imdb and modified a bit...
Dwalin: Look, I don't think it should be a sin, just for saying "Mahal".
[Everyone gasps]
Thorin: You're only making it worse for yourself!
Dwalin: Making it worse? How can it be worse? Mahal! Mahal! Mahal!
Thorin: I'm warning you! If you say "Mahal" one more time (gets hit with rock) RIGHT! Who did that? Come on, who did it?
Bifur and Nori: She did! She did! (suddenly speaking as men) He! He did! He!
Thorin: Was it you?
Bifur: Yes.
Thorin: Right...
Bifur: Well you did say "Mahal".
[Dwarves throw rocks at Bifur]
Thorin: STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW! STOP IT! All right, no one is to stone _anyone_ until I play this harp. Even... and I want to make this absolutely clear... even if they do say, "Mahal".
[Dwarves stone Thorin to death]
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
|
|
|
Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 7 2008, 6:58pm
Post #9 of 29
(2079 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Monty Python *and* Douglas Adams?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Mate, you are so on the right fansite. 
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
|
|
|
Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
Jan 7 2008, 7:36pm
Post #10 of 29
(2068 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Wow carrion... you left me a tough one to answer.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I hope none of the following is misinterpreted.
First of all, that's some careful reading, I'll give you that. The problem is it can be either a marvellous interpretation of Tolkien's secret intentions, or reading way too much between the lines.
We can't forget that The Hobbit wasn't so complicated a story at the time it was published, and that it was merely a fairy tale. It grew to be an important part of the legendarium, but it was not so (in general terms) in the beginning. I believe it highly unlikely that Tolkien hid things of the like in the text. What's the point of having female dwarves after all? And if there's a point, why hide them?
Now going movie... it's more delicate. You can't help but think how bizarre it would be for an average viewer to have any kind of female looking like Gimli. You could do it openly... but there comes the cavalry. Countless rants about how there were no female dwarves in the book, etc. Or you could do it as you suggest Tolkien did it, which comes back to my point: whay do it? Why go through the trouble of including dwarven women of they are going to pass by men, albeit strange looking men.
Of course that brings us to another problem. Rumours about hidden meanings and purposes in the movie. Those aren't healthy either.
I'm not saying you are wrong. You might be right, and we may never know it for sure. I just don't think it would be right for the movies.
Let it be heard! We want Jackson to direct The Hobbit!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
|
|
|
carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jan 7 2008, 11:12pm
Post #11 of 29
(2064 views)
Shortcut
|
My 'careful reading' took place a few years ago after i read the Tolkien note about women being indistinguishable. It just struck me as odd and Iwent back to the Hobbit text, expecting to quickly establish that all of Thorin's company were male...but page after page was filled with frustrating ambiguity on the subject of a few members of Thorin's company..even though the matter is quickly settled for the character of Gandalf, Bilbo, Elrond, Beorn...etc....then I reread to LOTR to through the same prism and found all the characters (including someone named Merry for pity's sake) all have their genders sorted out conclusively right off. Then, with this doubt now firmly planted in my mind, I rewatched a portion of Rankin/Bass The Hobbit and began to feel I'd been punked...as if I was the last one to catch on to a secret.
iI think the Rankin/Bass Hobbit played it perfectly. Here's an image of what I'm talking about:
http://www.theonering.com/...-0241-ori-nori-2.jpg
Its something that just kind of goes by and very few catch on to what might have been slyly suggested. And I'm not really looking for anything more than this.
But on the other hand 
Faced with this notion that they are going to be expanding the Hobbit (in some way) to two films..I think we may get a glimpse of the culture that produced Gimli (with whom the audience will be familiar adn who has commented himself that there ARE dwarf-women). If they decide to show us more of dwarven society, either by showing us life in Erebor before the coming of Smaug, or Thorin's people in exile, or Erebor restored under the rule of Dain...then it becomes nearly impossible to NOT show dwarf-women and dwarf-children without befuddling the audience. And once you do introduce dwarf women...and if you follow Tolkiens lead you're going to have to introduce them as co-equal and nearly indistinguishable from the men...and as equally desparate to restore a dwarven society that is disfunctional and failing...then to say explicitly that there are NO dwarf women in Thorin's Company is, in a way, more contrary to Tolkien's line than if you leave it, at least, ambiguous.
Also, I'm thinking of Fran Walsh and Phillipa Boyens, who so deftly stole from Tolkien's source material to flesh out the character of Arwen. If they are involved, I trust that they'd be able to 'go there, girlfriend' in interesting and honest ways.
Just, please, don't try and tell me Bombur is pregnant and goes into labor during the BO5A.!!
(This post was edited by carrioncrow on Jan 7 2008, 11:19pm)
|
|
|
carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jan 7 2008, 11:38pm
Post #12 of 29
(2063 views)
Shortcut
|
can anyone explain to me what Tolkien could have meant by
"best detachable party hoods"
It certainly sounds like he had something specific in mind. Can anyone link to an image of a hood that fits this particular description.
|
|
|
carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jan 8 2008, 12:31am
Post #13 of 29
(2066 views)
Shortcut
|
 Oh my gosh...on a hunch, I went looking at some old boards for my original exploration of this issue, AND I FOUND IT!!
for what its worth, here are some snippets from those January 2003 threads:
I just made a cursory review of the HOBBIT text. Maybe this dwarven gender is an old point of debate, and I am just late to the game LOL. If this subject has been more keenly observed by others, I welcome corrections (please reference page # :) )
By my count only five members of Thorin's Company are individually identified as having beards (Dori, Balin, Dwalin, Fili and Kill).
...more striking, nowhere over the course of a +300 page story is the gender of either ORI, NORI or BIFUR clearly identified...and to any reader-so-inclined, FILI could be assumed simply to be a hirsute she-dwarf until page 154 (when the identifier "he" is first applied to FILI).
For comparisons sake, In LOTR Frodo's gender is made clear on the first page of Chapter 1 (the first page where he is mentioned), Sam is described as a "son" on the very next page (the first page where Sam is mentioned), Pippin and Merry are introduced ambiguously on page 76 as "special friends" but by page 79 Pippin is undeniably a dude and Merry, who does not even join the company until page 106, is refered to as a "him" on page 101. etc, etc. All I'm suggesting is that "not idly do the pronouns of Tolkien fail"
I honestly don't think I ever looked into this before. I’m now nearly convinced that Nori, at least, is a chick. She travels in the company of two blood relatives(see page 18) , wear's a purple hooded cape(also page 18) and plays the flute (page 21). Since NORI is a chick then odds are ORI is a dude (sisters among dwarves must be as statistically rare as twins among modern humans?). Then with BIFUR, who like NORI travels in the company of two male relatives, Tolkien seems to have left the sexual identity to the imagination of the reader.
On page 47: "As each dwarf came up and looked at the fire, and the spilled jugs, and the gnawed mutton, in surprise, pop! went a nasty smelly sack over his head, and he was down"
And a similar such reference on page 70; "...discussed what each would do with HIS share."
In both of these circumstances Tolkien is using the masculine singular to describe what a series of dwarves would do. In modern usage, one might feel compelled to avoid this sentence construction completely when discussing 'mixed company' or be expected to wrestle with a PC qualifier like "him and/or her" , but in the not so distant days of the Twentieth Century the masculine pronoun was more easily read as gender neutral in these sorts of circumstances.
It is telling that our first (and presumably best) bit of evidence against "Gal Nori" is tantilizingly ambiguous.
Even if I were to accept that NORI isn't female, the notion that we could erase all reference to his/her gender in THE HOBBIT by cutting two words from a +300 page work of literature is not much of a testament to importance of his/her manhood in terms of the story being told. In fact it neatly works out to one cut per testicle. 
I am, however, NOT READY to concede the two cited passages as anything better than ambiguous. Here are a few online references related to this very problem of English's lack of a third person gender neutral pronoun.
newark.rutgers.edu/~jlync...ing/s.html
. . Leaving his and her, or some combination of the two. "Each student is responsible for revising his papers" is the traditional usage, and assumes the masculine pronoun stands for everyone, but to some readers it suggests male chauvinism.
www.indiana.edu/~lggender/grammar.html
"...According to grammarians, 3rd person masculine singular pronouns are gender neutral and refer to people whose sex is not known or groups including women and men..."
www.ariscott.com/jjoantta...arthey.doc
"...English doesn’t have a "grammatically acceptable" gender-free third-person singular pronoun to reference a person..."
I'm not taking sides in these grammar/gender wars, but simply noting that in Tolkien's time (before feminism revived the debate in the late 60's) this would not have been a point deemed worthy of discussion among the English Language Establishment of which JRRT was a comfortably entrenched member. It was standard practice to use "he" as the gender-neutral pronoun when describing a group including men and women. Still don't believe me?...
www.english.upenn.edu/~cj...ender.html
"..."He" started to be used as a generic pronoun by grammarians who were trying to change a long-established tradition of using they as a singular pronoun. In 1850 an Act of Parliament gave official sanction to the recently invented concept of the "generic" he. In the language used in acts of Parliament, the new law said, "words importing the masculine gender shall be deemed and taken to include females..."
I guess...what I'm trying to say is...if in a future film of THE HOBBIT...er...NORI is portrayed as a chick...SOMEONE HERE OWES ME A BEER!
It would provide an opportunity to tap into the natural curiosity general audience members will bring into the theater regarding the race and culture that produced JRD's Gimli. Aragorn's joke in the TT EX-DVD about the beards of drwarv-women was just that, a joke. Interpretation is still wide open to use gender as one avenue to draw distinctions among Thorin's company. Not the only avenue or an essential one or a "P.C." requirement.
I'd never considered NORI to be a woman in my previous readings of THE HOBBIT. It is best for me to drop it until the business of HOBBIT adaptation is more front and center a few years from now.
but I'm really not gonna comment on that topic again until the movie project gets the official green light. Smeagol promises!
Too funny and here i am, right on schedule. I must have had ALOT of free time back then LOL
|
|
|
burrahobbit
Nargothrond
Jan 8 2008, 12:53am
Post #14 of 29
(2056 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Alan Lee illustration any help?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I can't find a large version of this online, but I was thinking of this one:
http://www.tuckborough.net/images/bombur.jpg
I'd guess they are detachable from travelling cloaks, but I'm not sure what 'party' bit of the description means other than they are travelling in a party.
This has got me flicking through the Illustrated Hobbit again... Alan Lee's great as always, especially the wonderful picture of Smaug, it's stunning!
|
|
|
_V_
Menegroth
Jan 8 2008, 2:17am
Post #15 of 29
(2065 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Bifur, Bofur, Bombur = Broadbeams
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
excellent summary; should sticky this thread;
****Important note I think you missed: Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur are NOT Longbeards (During's Folk, of Khazad-dum) like the rest, but I believe are said to be Broadbeams of Nogrod (a different clan entirely).
They should dressed subtely differently, and perhaps also have a slightly different accent....
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 8 2008, 2:20am
Post #16 of 29
(2038 views)
Shortcut
|
I'm not sure I believe it -- but excellent close reading!
One reason I'm doubtful is that Tolkien wrote the note on "Dis" in LotR about eighteen years after completing The Hobbit, and as CompaMighty says, there's no clear purpose to including two completely unmentioned dwarven women among that company of thirteen
On the other hand, I disagree with CM's claim that The Hobbit was unimportant before it became the prelude to LotR: Tolkien wrote it with some literary intentions and allusions, including references to Beowulf and Owen Barfield.
Have you had a chance to check the drafts (or later revisions) in John Rateliff's History of The Hobbit? That might support or refute your argument (I haven't gotten Rateliff's book yet). Also, have a look at William Green's book, The Hobbit: A Journey into Maturity, which argues, if I remember correctly (and among other things), that Tolkien offsets the lack of women characters in The Hobbit by giving some male characters female attributes.
Have you got a link to your 2003 post?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 7-13 for "Strider".
|
|
|
_V_
Menegroth
Jan 8 2008, 2:30am
Post #17 of 29
(2050 views)
Shortcut
|
it's not just that dwarf-women look like dwarf males; dwarf-women NEVER leave the dwarf halls in the mountains; they never leave or travel. Literally the only dwarf-woman on record is Dis, mother of Fili and Kili.
|
|
|
Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
Jan 8 2008, 3:16am
Post #18 of 29
(2032 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Importance of The Hobbit and Rateliff
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
On the other hand, I disagree with CM's claim that The Hobbit was unimportant before it became the prelude to LotR: Tolkien wrote it with some literary intentions and allusions, including references to Beowulf and Owen Barfield.
Have you had a chance to check the drafts (or later revisions) in John Rateliff's History of The Hobbit? That might support or refute your argument (I haven't gotten Rateliff's book yet). Also, have a look at William Green's book, The Hobbit: A Journey into Maturity, which argues, if I remember correctly (and among other things), that Tolkien offsets the lack of women characters in The Hobbit by giving some male characters female attributes.
I mean, not altogether unimportant, but certainly without the amount of thought given to LotR or The Silmarillion (which was given so much thought that there was never a definitive version by Tolkien).
Tolkien's statement about him "wishing that he had written The Hobbit in a tone that was not so childish" , the actual commencement of what Rateliff calls "the fifth face" (the rewriting expressly made to match LotR's style) and the mere rewriting of Riddles in the Dark to match the later "more important" work, I believe back up my arguement about not being so important, as to include an incredibly well thought absolutely intranscendent thing to the story as the hypothesis carrion suggests.
As for the second part of your post, I have been reading Part 1 of Rateliff's book, but I'm doing it very slowly. I find it a little difficult to follow with so many notes, plates and editorial work. However, I can tell you a couple of things: Rateliff does try to prove that The Hobbit was much more linked to the legendarium than it is originally credited for, but so far it still sounds as if it is a hugely well crafted fairy tale, by an author with lots of cultural references on mind, rather than the first part of the epic story that is Lord of the Rings.
Let it be heard! We want Jackson to direct The Hobbit!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 8 2008, 3:45am
Post #19 of 29
(2032 views)
Shortcut
|
When Nogrod was destroyed, were all its dwarf-women likewise?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 7-13 for "Strider".
(This post was edited by N.E. Brigand on Jan 8 2008, 3:46am)
|
|
|
Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jan 8 2008, 4:27am
Post #20 of 29
(2046 views)
Shortcut
|
|
This is a bit too pretty for the dwarves
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But just pretty enough for Dis, Bofur, and Nori!
I think "best detachable party hoods" means just what it says -- you can take off the hood when you get to the party and keep your cloak on if you want to. I imagine it has buttons for attaching/detaching. That's a more labor-intensive and expensive detail than a simple one-piece hooded cloak. Thus, having a detachable party hood is not only practical and convenient, but is also a status symbol.
Where's Frodo?
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 8 2008, 9:18am
Post #21 of 29
(2016 views)
Shortcut
|
As you say, it's a bit too pretty for the dwarves (although maybe not for the female ones....)
There's another clue to what "party hoods" might be in the description in your link:
The hood on the Waterford cloak is detachable so this ornate hood can be replaced by another hood for day wear.
"Party hoods" are probably fancier than "everyday hoods" - you wear them when you're invited somewhere nice (such as to tea with Bilbo). Then they can go back into your pack and you can use a more basic one to keep the rain off when you're travelling. Very practical - one small item really fancies up your costume!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jan 8 2008, 11:47am
Post #22 of 29
(2014 views)
Shortcut
|
Well, once this idea got in my head the paragraph about dwarven women in th histories reads in a whole different way.
Its almost like, very late in the game, Tolkien realize he hasn't adequately explained the society structure of Durin's folk. So he incorporates the tale of Dis and explains that the women are few, and secreted, and then almost as if it just occurs to him..he tosses in a few details with a wink about "going about at great need" and their being indistinguishable from the men. Thorin's company in exile would seem to be just the sort of circumstance he is describing here. cheeky bastard!
You may be right that serious deconstruction of tolkien's drafts and background materials may reveal conclusively that none of the 13 are female. But the fact that we have to go to those lengths is what I find so amusing (and a bit frustrating)
|
|
|
carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jan 8 2008, 12:18pm
Post #23 of 29
(2027 views)
Shortcut
|
thanks for the additional detail:
Bifur may be a broad. check!
|
|
|
carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jan 8 2008, 12:23pm
Post #24 of 29
(2015 views)
Shortcut
|
do a google search for "best detachable party hoods" and you get (oddly) a lot of BDSM sites selling leather masks with zippers...but you also get this:
http://www.pinkdandelion.com/...=1&tb=1&pb=1
I think this is on the right track.
I'm not asking this question idly, my wife is a knitter and I'm thinking of 'commissioning' a work from her along these lines. But before I do that, I want to have a clear idea of what Tolkien had in mind.
BTW, if i DO get my wife to try one, which should she do first (I favor Balin, because it could double as my santa costume next christmas!)
(This post was edited by carrioncrow on Jan 8 2008, 12:29pm)
|
|
|
carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jan 8 2008, 6:00pm
Post #25 of 29
(1990 views)
Shortcut
|
Have you got a link to your 2003 post?
It wasn't posted here. I never really was much for posting at theonering. net here in "ye olde days" of 1998-2002.
I started out on a board run by Joram Manka (does that ring any bells?) and as the online community shook out...I don't remember which board I ended up on, but it wasn't here. The thread about the female dwarves was on a site called (i think) "The White Council" or something...but that was just a site I found one nigh5t when I was looking to chat about the ROTK film...I posted there (and maybe here as well) as "Monghi" but not for very long.
|
|
|
|
|
I like your idea
[
1
