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Shagrat
Mithlond
Oct 21 2014, 5:08pm
Post #1 of 32
(1573 views)
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The Wilhelm Scream (Spoilers)
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I, like many on here I'm sure, loved all the new EE additions with one exception. The insertion of a 'Wilhelm Scream' during Thrain's death. What on earth was that all about? Who in their right mind could have thought that was a good idea? How could a fine emotional arc and a great character be shown such a disservice, almost made a mockery of in this fashion? This isn't some background soldier in the middle of a battle. It's all the more strange given that you can hear Sher's perfectly good scream. It's a shame that the last new bit of footage ended on such a sour note when the rest was so good.
I know others talked about this in the EE impressions thread, but I thought it worthy of its own since it's just so mindboggling and perhaps it can be brought to more people's attention. Indeed, at this point I'm almost wondering if it was a mistake, perhaps a joke, that somehow got through without being noticed. I know it sounds implausible, but I just can't think of a logical reason why they'd add it. There's also the fact that one of the new scenes in Laketown also includes a Wilhelm Scream, so to have it twice in the added footage seems particularly odd.
I'd just love to get a response from PJ or someone high-up on this, and find out why they could possibly have thought it worked. It taints an otherwise very much improved film.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 21 2014, 5:18pm
Post #2 of 32
(949 views)
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I've just had to look up the history of it but it sounds like something sound artists just enjoy including.
I don't have any strong feeling about it as there isn't anything particularly unusual about the noise itself - so it doesn't detract from the scene for me.
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Shagrat
Mithlond
Oct 21 2014, 5:21pm
Post #4 of 32
(915 views)
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But if you're very familiar with this scream and its history the use of it here is incredibly jarring.
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AshNazg
Hithlum
Oct 21 2014, 5:24pm
Post #5 of 32
(902 views)
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Not even joking, I may have preferred it //
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painjoiker
Hithlum
Oct 21 2014, 5:27pm
Post #6 of 32
(925 views)
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I haven't seen it yet but that sounds so disturbing and wrong.
Especially if that "tell my son I love him" thing followed by a wilhelm scream.
Is it loud? Is it very clear? or is it mixed far behind Sher's own scream?
Vocalist in the melodic metal band Betomast
and the progressive doom rock band Mater Thallium
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Bofur01
Menegroth
Oct 21 2014, 5:30pm
Post #7 of 32
(883 views)
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It's over the top of Sher's scream :( //
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Shagrat
Mithlond
Oct 21 2014, 5:30pm
Post #8 of 32
(889 views)
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And it comes just after that. You hear his scream more after the Wilhelm scream.
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sauget.diblosio
Dor-Lomin
Oct 21 2014, 5:32pm
Post #9 of 32
(916 views)
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They need to let the Wilhelm scream go.
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It used to be a fun inside joke, but it's used so much, that once you know about it, it's just too distracting to be used as much as it is. Especially in an emotional, dramatic scene. Maybe it's ok in a fun action movie, or a comedy, but even then i'm over it.
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Bernhardina
Nargothrond
Oct 21 2014, 5:51pm
Post #10 of 32
(870 views)
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It pulled me out of the movie. Destroyed a pretty much perfect scene. Yeah, I was pretty upset about this and honestly, I still am. It was just so... I don't know, disrespectful to the character. I loved the scenes with Thrain, but using the scream was pointless and stupid.
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Shagrat
Mithlond
Oct 21 2014, 5:53pm
Post #11 of 32
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It remains a joke. Indeed, it's the type of thing you add over a serious scene of someone falling/moving through the air to make it funny. I could almost imagine them in sound editing having a laugh, messing around, putting different famous movie screams over the scene. Problem was, someone forgot to remove it afterwards...
(This post was edited by Shagrat on Oct 21 2014, 5:53pm)
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Dor-Lomin
Oct 21 2014, 6:11pm
Post #13 of 32
(855 views)
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The Wilhelm scream's use in the Laketown scene is exactly the kind of appearance that it usually makes (anonymous soldier #2, etc.) and is even appropriate in such instances (it provides some humor). But to then use it again during the climax of such an emotionally charged scene is utterly bewildering. I'm struggling to understand how PJ thought that was even close to appropriate.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Oct 21 2014, 6:13pm)
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Oct 21 2014, 6:14pm
Post #14 of 32
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I watched the clip on youtube just to hear it for myself. It's pretty bad, but it happens really fast.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Oct 21 2014, 6:21pm
Post #15 of 32
(813 views)
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PJ has Already USED it Once...
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Early in the GoblinTOWN
ESCAPE...Soon after Gandalf iz
Leading them down,... down,... down..
It didn't
Bother
bomby then & IT won't
bother,
bomby...now.
It was used @ Helm's Deep &
Pelennor Fieldzzz also!,
(One of Haradruim who falls off the Oliphant
while Leggy is NAILING them all..)
Here iz bomzz new Thinkin' THEORY?
JUS' like his
Once a Movie Cameo
THAT... Famous Movie (Conceit)
Screen
Screem..will be
Somewhere in each film.
SSOoo...No ProblemOOO.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Shagrat
Mithlond
Oct 21 2014, 6:26pm
Post #16 of 32
(766 views)
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The instances you name Bomby are fine - they all involved random grunts in action sequences. But here, with the death of a main character, in such a dramatic scene, it just doesn't work at all. I have no problem with the scream and PJ including it in all his films, but just use it like the instances you specify (as he does in the earlier scene at Laketown in the EE).
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Oct 21 2014, 9:36pm
Post #17 of 32
(647 views)
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I really don't know what the fuss is about. It's fine. The emotion of that scene is spectacular. The scream in Lake-town was far more distracting.
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BilboBagshot187
Ossiriand
Oct 21 2014, 9:59pm
Post #18 of 32
(621 views)
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Just finished watching the EE and all the added scenes are excellent, the whole Dol Guldur subplot is completely different and much better now, but that scream at that moment is so out of place! I actually had to rewind it to double check I wasn't hearing things! the addition of Thrain adds real peril to the story overall, the fact hes been trapped there going mad all that time is rather disturbing. Its a brilliant performance and the scene where he is taken by Sauron is very dark and emotional, the scream just kind of takes you out of the moment. Its fine in a large battle scene or perhaps a lighter scene but this was an intimate scene that involved the death of a character. It doesn't ruin the scene completely but it certainly diminishes some of the impact. A very odd choice in my opinion.
'Everywhere I lie theres a dirty great root sticking into my back!'
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AshNazg
Hithlum
Oct 21 2014, 10:52pm
Post #19 of 32
(557 views)
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With Sauron and/or Bolg and/or Azog, and it takes until that moment, a lifetime later, before Sauron decides to kill him?
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 21 2014, 10:59pm
Post #20 of 32
(553 views)
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I think that is rather explained (spoilers)
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By the fact that Thrain was trapped by the illusion up until that point and also quite mad - with Gandalf, he stood a chance of getting away and had regained his senses. At which point Sauron decided to take matters in hand, as it were.
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Bernhardina
Nargothrond
Oct 21 2014, 11:03pm
Post #21 of 32
(548 views)
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I am usually fine with the wilhelm scream, since it is a joke / used at light hearted situations. This scene with Thrain however was very dark and emotional. The scream was very inappropriate, made it feel like PJ didn't take this character seriously because he couldn't even give him an honorable death. It was like he was thinking: LOL look crazy Thrain got killed, hahaha!
I am sure PJ didn't think that, but it certainly looked bad to me. I felt slightly embarrased. But I think one has to know about the history of this scream to be bothered by it in this scene. Hopefully most people do not recognize it.
For the rest of us... I guess we will have to learn how to live with this 
(This post was edited by Bernhardina on Oct 21 2014, 11:04pm)
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 21 2014, 11:07pm
Post #22 of 32
(549 views)
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I can't quite get to grips with this.
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So, I'm no expert on this, but as far as I understood it, whilst not used in heart-wrenching real-life dramas, it was used in adventure type films without intending to convey a joke or lightheartedness.
The previous ME outings being a case in point - I do recall someone pointing it out to me in TTT when an elf (I think) falls from the wall at Helm's Deep. Surely that wasn't intended to make the death funny was it?
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
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KeenObserver
Menegroth
Oct 21 2014, 11:16pm
Post #23 of 32
(546 views)
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. . . that you wouldn't unexpectedly and uncontrollably emit a 'Wilhelm Scream' if the Dark Lord had snatched you up and sent you into oblivion? 
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
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Bernhardina
Nargothrond
Oct 21 2014, 11:26pm
Post #24 of 32
(535 views)
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Yes, you are right. It is not originally intended for light hearted situations, nor has PJ used it to make comic relief out of drama. But it has been used too much, everywhere by everyone and that makes it joke-like in any situation.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 21 2014, 11:33pm
Post #25 of 32
(521 views)
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But then in that case the "joke" is really a "meta-joke", for want of a better term, based on your knowledge of its usage.
So, logically, all you would need to do to solve the problem is recognise that, although it sounds like a Wilhelm scream, in fact it is ever so slightly different, just very subtly, but different nonetheless, therefore the usage doesn't convey any humorous connotations to you and thus the issue is fixed. No?
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Are you sure . . .
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