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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Jan 21 2014, 4:46pm
Post #26 of 69
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The Tauriel/Kili storyline allowed for one of the most moving and Tolkienesque scenes in all five films
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Their interaction at Kili's cell about starlight evoked much that is good and beautiful throughout Tolkien's work. Not just the lovely imagery of starlight evoking the awakening of the Elves at Cuiviénen, but also the questing of people from different races to understand and connect with each other, that we see in such places as the Athrabeth, and Turin and the Elve-maiden, Nellas, and other places. I give the scriptwriters very high marks for finding a way to incorporate that lovely dynamic into the story, and feel sorry for people that are unable to see how very Tolkienesque it is, simply because "it isn't in the book".
The healing scene is less successfully executed, but even there, there are some very nice notes for those willing to experience them.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Jan 21 2014, 4:53pm
Post #27 of 69
(714 views)
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There was no chance to use Long Slooow dissolves
or Double exposures with 3D.
Example: Aragorn left for dead in TTT.
Arwen dissolves into the Shot from Above
& Kisses Aragorn.
She never fully materializes
but the Kiss revives him.
Impossible with shooting in 3D.
So Cuts are the only way to go.
Bomby is a big Fan of slow dissolves
& Cuts make it seem more like a NewReel
rather than Fantasy Filmaking.
Next time you watch the LOTR Trilogy,
look for dissolves, there are many.
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Jan 21 2014, 5:18pm
Post #28 of 69
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feel "sorry", it sounds a bit offensive to me that I may be pitied because I dislike a movie or a tool used in it. It's similar to me saying I feel sorry for all those who fail to see how this story line is damaging all Tolkienesque I treasure. But I don't. I definitely feel offended by such attitude. It hints at some "superior" position of those who are on your side of the pond and those like me. I think this is not the place for comparing our intelligence and comment on it.
Middle earth recipes archive
I believe
(This post was edited by simplyaven on Jan 21 2014, 5:26pm)
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Elthir
Hithlum
Jan 21 2014, 5:53pm
Post #30 of 69
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... described...
'Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.' JRRT, letters
I can get the letter number if you like [it's a relatively late letter if I recall correctly], but I'm not sure the context there alters this rather direct comment.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 21 2014, 6:03pm
Post #31 of 69
(671 views)
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******************************************
May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Jan 21 2014, 6:07pm
Post #32 of 69
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In my opinion, Tolkien meant she is not 100% Elf and she did have her Elvish rights. Again, if we calculate the percentage of her Elven blood versus non Elven, she is more Elf than not, and more Elf than half such. At least, based on my calculations.
Middle earth recipes archive
I believe
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Avandel
Gondolin
Jan 21 2014, 6:09pm
Post #33 of 69
(673 views)
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*Giggles* Well, I concentrate on Kili and Fili, mostly. I think to myself how energetic Aidan Tuner is and what a good job he does writhing around (he seems really poisoned, and there's one part where his eyes are looking up and they look very white, and terrible). When it gets really bad I fiddle with the button on my new "Indiglo" Timex (that I got at an outlet - bargain!) watching the (dim) blue-green light go on and off. The it's time for a swig of diet coke and quietly digging around in my purse for the plastic ball of "EOS" lip gloss, and re-positioning the 3-D glasses. Finally I shift position a bit (quietly).
Generally, it's kind of like RA's pre-filming needed quiet time, but for me it's re-settling for the rest of the movie. Of course, I have to go through the ritual all over again during the "love" scene, but that goes a little faster.
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Elthir
Hithlum
Jan 21 2014, 6:25pm
Post #34 of 69
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If you note my response was to someone who was wondering if Arwen was a Noldo, or a Light Elf. Turgon is an Elf, Galadriel is an Elf...
... but Tolkien made his distinctions here and so did I, again in response to someone [seemingly] wondering what 'kind' of Elf Arwen was. Turgon and Galadriel have no choice of fate of course, they are Elves; and Arwen and her brothers are not simply Elves no matter that they have a notable measure of Elvish blood.
Yes one can shine the side of the coin that shows how 'Elvish' they are, but that's one side of the coin, and in any case it's a discussion that doesn't emerge when someone asks [for instance] what 'kind' of Elf Glorfindel was.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 21 2014, 7:11pm
Post #35 of 69
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The user "Bilbo" over at lotrplaza.com calculated that Arwen was 3.125% Maia, 18.75% Man (which is composed of 3.125% of the House of Hador, 3.125% of the House of Haladin, and 12.5% of the House of Beor), and 78.125% Elven (which is 17.1875% Noldor, 7.8125% Vanyar, 12.5% Telerin, and 40.625% Sindar).
******************************************
May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)
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Roheryn
Dor-Lomin
Jan 21 2014, 9:25pm
Post #37 of 69
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I think you're spot-on, that the interactions between Kili and Tauriel are very Tolkienesque. I think if more people were familiar with the story of the Elves' awakening, there might be less complaining about the Feast of Starlight scene. I'd be curious to know how many people who like or dislike the scene have read or not read The Sil. I bet there'd be some statistically significant differences.
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Noria
Hithlum
Jan 21 2014, 9:41pm
Post #38 of 69
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legolin12
Lindon
Jan 21 2014, 10:11pm
Post #39 of 69
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Hannon le, for putting my thoughts into words!
Very well said!
'"Answer the question, filth!"'
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Jan 21 2014, 10:17pm
Post #40 of 69
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I certainly didn't mean to offend you
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I apologize for that. All I meant is that I feel bad that you and many others of love Tolkien aren't able to appreciate something that I think is quite beautiful, and quite Tolkienesque. It is not a comment on your or anyone else's intelligence, or even about who is right or wrong.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Rowan Greene
Menegroth
Jan 21 2014, 10:48pm
Post #41 of 69
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I've read the Silmarillion and a large portion of the Histories of ME...
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....and the non-canon character and her superfluous story arc still didn't resonate with me. That's not a "complaint" but an opinion. As for the starlight scene, my dislike has nothing to do with how "Tolkienesque" it may or may not be. It has more to do with the fact the entire Tauriel/Kili story arc overshadows the story's protagonist--- you know that guy, Bilbo THE HOBBIT, along with the other dwarves and their quest--and the fact it does little to move the main story arc story forward. (In my opinion, of course.)
I would have much rather have spent that precious time watching Bilbo explore Thranduil's halls, pilfering food and amazed by the feasting elves/Thranduil while he searched for a way out. This would have given us a closer look at the woodland elves and Thranduil in particular. That would have been a better use of screen time since Thranduil plays a signficant role in the Bo5A and the aftermath. (IF they stay true to the book anyway.) Personally, I'm more concerned with the story's integrity than I am with racking up "Tolkienesque" moments.
More power to those who love PJ's fabricated character and her story arc. I just don't happen to be one of them and I'm well read when it comes to Tolkien (and in general).
I think you're spot-on, that the interactions between Kili and Tauriel are very Tolkienesque. I think if more people were familiar with the story of the Elves' awakening, there might be less complaining about the Feast of Starlight scene. I'd be curious to know how many people who like or dislike the scene have read or not read The Sil. I bet there'd be some statistically significant differences.
(This post was edited by Rowan Greene on Jan 21 2014, 10:53pm)
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Ismene
Lindon
Jan 21 2014, 11:53pm
Post #42 of 69
(586 views)
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That would be an interesting Poll
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As a sample size of one, I will add my 2 cents, fwiw
Have read the Silmarillion and don't dislike either the addition of Tauriel or the Feast of Starlight & healing scenes. I see these as a welcome addition of another female and however this plays out in H:TABA - friends, lovers, strangers with a few moment's of true understanding - it for me adds the hope that eventually all the inherited hates can end if only the prior gens will step back out of the way and stay out of the way.
What I do dislike is the frankly disturbing racist tones inherent in various objectors around the internet. These are to me, unpleasant linkbacks to RL as it were, to some of humanity's worst behavior that we have yet to outgrow.
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Thyia
Nevrast
Jan 22 2014, 12:05am
Post #43 of 69
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It has more to do with the fact the entire Tauriel/Kili story arc overshadows the story's protagonist--- you know that guy, Bilbo THE HOBBIT, along with the other dwarves and their quest--and the fact it does little to move the main story arc story forward. (In my opinion, of course.)
Next time I see the film, I'm really tempted to take a stop watch, but I'm pretty sure that Bilbo has more screen time than the Tauriel/Kili story arc does. There's what... about 45 seconds when she rescues him from the spider, 1.5 minutes or less when she puts in the cell (including her remarks to Legolas about how tall he is), 5-6 minutes of the Starlight scene, maybe 10 seconds of her getting distracted over Kili during the barrel chase and nearly getting slaughtered by an orc, 15 seconds of the orc explaining Kili's fate with the arrow, then perhaps the healing scene is about 1.5 minutes, then Kili's love hallucination is another minute? So, perhaps 10-11 minutes in total or so?
I'm pretty sure that Bilbo's scenes with Smaug are around a similar amount of time give or take, not to mention all of his other scenes in the movie. I just don't see how the Tauriel/Kili thing overshadows Bilbo.
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Rowan Greene
Menegroth
Jan 22 2014, 12:40am
Post #44 of 69
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I said nothing about screen time...
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I don't recall saying that Bilbo was overshadowed due to the amount of screen time given to other characters. (I have said that in my opinion the screen time spent on the Tauriel/Kili subplot was wasted, or rather, it was time that could have been better spent on other characters.) However, if you read my post carefully you'll note that I said the "Tauriel/Kili story arc overshadows the story's protagonist..."
The overshadowing in this case has nothing to do with screen time. It has to do with promoting a story arc that does next to nothing to advance the actual plot. It has to do with superfluous subplots taking precedence over the story's actual premise. To overshadow: "appear much more prominent or important than."
So again, it's my opinion that Bilbo's story arc was overshadowed by the Kili/Tauriel subplot. We barely see Bilbo in the woodland realm because of time spent advancing the non-canon "love triangle" or whatever you want to call it between Kili, Tauriel and Legolas / time spent fleshing out what I feel should be an insignificant character (Tauriel). We get a glimpse of Bilbo right before Tauriel enters Thranduil's chambers and I was momentarily excited only to have my hopes dashed. Instead of focusing on Bilbo stealing wine/food, almost getting caught by Thranduil, looking for keys and/or a way out, etc., we waste yet more precious time listening to Thranduil tell Tauriel about how Legolas thought she fought well, is fond of her but he'll never sanction the match blah blah blah. I don't give a rat's tush that Legolas thought Tauriel fought well or that he's fond of her or that Thranduil is against the match. What I care about is how an unlikely hero is going to rescue the dwarves from Thranduil's dungeon. What I care about is observing this unlikely hero's reactions and character evolution as he wanders through Thranduil's halls and formulates the escape plan, etc. I don't want to focus on a lone dwarf and his infatuation with a fabricated elf character. (I won't even get into the Lake-town scenes of other nonsense related to this story arc.) I signed on to see a quest and not a star-crossed love story.
But, by all means, get out your stopwatch if you have nothing better to do while watching a film.
It has more to do with the fact the entire Tauriel/Kili story arc overshadows the story's protagonist--- you know that guy, Bilbo THE HOBBIT, along with the other dwarves and their quest--and the fact it does little to move the main story arc story forward. (In my opinion, of course.) Next time I see the film, I'm really tempted to take a stop watch, but I'm pretty sure that Bilbo has more screen time than the Tauriel/Kili story arc does. There's what... about 45 seconds when she rescues him from the spider, 1.5 minutes or less when she puts in the cell (including her remarks to Legolas about how tall he is), 5-6 minutes of the Starlight scene, maybe 10 seconds of her getting distracted over Kili during the barrel chase and nearly getting slaughtered by an orc, 15 seconds of the orc explaining Kili's fate with the arrow, then perhaps the healing scene is about 1.5 minutes, then Kili's love hallucination is another minute? So, perhaps 10-11 minutes in total or so? I'm pretty sure that Bilbo's scenes with Smaug are around a similar amount of time give or take, not to mention all of his other scenes in the movie. I just don't see how the Tauriel/Kili thing overshadows Bilbo.
(This post was edited by Rowan Greene on Jan 22 2014, 12:50am)
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Altaira
Superuser
Jan 22 2014, 2:01am
Post #45 of 69
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I said nothing about screen time
Ah, but you did! All the solutions you described that would correct the Tauriel/Kili storyline overshadowing Bilbo's storyline for you involve.....giving Bilbo more screen time. I can see how that could easily lead someone to think about the overall allocation of screen time in the movie as it exists, if nothing more than just out of pure curiosity. That's how I took it anyway. As such, I don't think the stopwatch comment was necessary.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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Rowan Greene
Menegroth
Jan 22 2014, 2:34am
Post #46 of 69
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...was that in my opinion, the Kili/Tauriel story arc overshadowed the story's protagonist and the quest.* Not the screen time but the actual romance subplot/the fleshing out of Tauriel's character, which (IMO) was given more prominence and attention than Bilbo's mission. The subplot became the focal point v. the unlikely hero trying to find a way out and save the day. (Many will disagree but that's my perspective.) *That's what I said and that's what the poster quoted and addressed.
My follow-up statement offered solutions which do include scenes involving Bilbo but also Thranduil, who figures prominently in the Bo5A. Those were but a few examples of scenes I felt needed fleshing out based on how the story ends (if they stay true to the book). Anyway, next time I'll include a comprehensive list to avoid any confusion. But the fact remains that I did not state that the story arc overshadowed the protagonist due to allocated screen time.
My post:
...It has more to do with the fact the entire Tauriel/Kili story arc overshadows the story's protagonist--you know that guy, Bilbo THE HOBBIT, along with the other dwarves and their quest--and the fact it does little to move the main story arc story forward. (In my opinion, of course.)
I would have much rather have spent that precious time watching Bilbo explore Thranduil's halls, pilfering food and amazed by the feasting elves/Thranduil while he searched for a way out. This would have given us a closer look at the woodland elves and Thranduil in particular. That would have been a better use of screen time since Thranduil plays a signficant role in the Bo5A and the aftermath. (IF they stay true to the book anyway.) Personally, I'm more concerned with the story's integrity than I am with racking up "Tolkienesque" moments.
I said nothing about screen time Ah, but you did! All the solutions you described that would correct the Tauriel/Kili storyline overshadowing Bilbo's storyline for you involve.....giving Bilbo more screen time. I can see how that could easily lead someone to think about the overall allocation of screen time in the movie as it exists, if nothing more than just out of pure curiosity. That's how I took it anyway. As such, I don't think the stopwatch comment was necessary.
(This post was edited by Rowan Greene on Jan 22 2014, 2:41am)
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Altaira
Superuser
Jan 22 2014, 4:19am
Post #47 of 69
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the fact remains that I did not state that the story arc overshadowed the protagonist due to allocated screen time.
That is, indeed, a fact. And, all I'm saying is that you did strongly imply it by offering solutions, 99% of which involved more screen time for Bilbo. That made it quite easy for someone, without any affront to you or what you said, to then become curious about the amount of screen time allocated to various story arcs.
More importantly, I'm saying it's usually better to cut people a little slack than to assume a defensive comeback is needed. 
And, now you've done it: you've sparked some curiosity in me. How would you fix the problem of overshadowing the protagonist's story arc *without* giving them more screen time in proportion to other story arcs?
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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DwellerInDale
Nargothrond
Jan 22 2014, 4:19am
Post #48 of 69
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Without Tauriel (and Legolas), Thranduil would be reduced to a cameo
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If the Tauriel scenes in the Woodland Realm were erased, then Thranduil becomes nothing much more than a cameo, and very significant plot elements are potentially lost:
- There would be no conversation with Tauriel about the spiders, and thus no revelation of Thranduil's isolationist policies. You would have to invent some pretext for Bilbo to observe Thranduil alone, which would not further the plot in any way and which might look rather creepy.
- Without Tauriel and Legolas the Dwarves wouldn't stand a chance against Bolg and the Orcs, so "Barrels out of Bond" has to be radically changed; thus there is no orc prisoner to be interrogated, and no reason for Thranduil to suspect that the power of Sauron may have risen again.
So instead of three scenes, Thranduil has only the one scene with Thorin, or you invent "something else" to give him more screen time. The reason why we don't see Bilbo do more sneaking around inside the Woodland Realm (which will probably be in the EE) is that it really doesn't further the plot in any way-- he notices the keys, the barrels, the Elves setting aside the keys and getting drunk, and that's enough for the TE.
The "Feast of Starlight" scene has less to do with Tauriel than with Kili-- his character needs to be fleshed out, to foreshadow events that occur in TABA. Without this scene and referral to his mother Dis, he's just along for the ride, and his eventual fate has far less impact (as in the book). How can that small subplot overshadow the main plot? If you say that this was some sort of "romance", then that is your own interpretation, regardless of language that anyone has used in interviews and sound bites. The only thing that really counts toward criticism of the movie is the movie, right?
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
(This post was edited by DwellerInDale on Jan 22 2014, 4:20am)
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wonderinglinguist
Menegroth
Jan 22 2014, 5:24am
Post #49 of 69
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You would have to invent some pretext for Bilbo to observe Thranduil alone, which would not further the plot in any way and which might look rather creepy.
I don't understand 1. why Thranduil would have to be alone (possibilities include Legolas, random elves, his own version of Lindir, etc) or 2. why would we have to see his scenes through Bilbo's eyes?
IMO, I think the elven king should have been treated as more of major character than he was in the movie, regardless of who he's talking to.
Without Tauriel and Legolas the Dwarves wouldn't stand a chance against Bolg and the Orcs, so "Barrels out of Bond" has to be radically changed
I just found this funny considering how greatly it already is changed! It's the complete opposite from what's in the book. There's no orc chase at all. Too boring to just float down the river? There could have been plenty of added drama just from the sheer danger of going down rapids in barrels. Actually, they could have used it to allude to the "almost drowning" of Fili and Kili (canon, no less) that didn't make it into the movies.
thus there is no orc prisoner to be interrogated, and no reason for Thranduil to suspect that the power of Sauron may have risen again.
To accommodate that, I don't see why the orcs couldn't have just entered Mirkwood afterwards, the elves kill them all except one and question it --basically, what they did in the movie, just after the dwarves are long gone.
The reason why we don't see Bilbo do more sneaking around inside the Woodland Realm (which will probably be in the EE) is that it really doesn't further the plot in any way-- he notices the keys, the barrels, the Elves setting aside the keys and getting drunk, and that's enough for the TE.
I agree with you here. I think the EE will help immensely, particularly in the first half or so of the movie where it felt like we were rushed through things without having a chance to breathe!
The "Feast of Starlight" scene has less to do with Tauriel than with Kili-- his character needs to be fleshed out, to foreshadow events that occur in TABA. Without this scene and referral to his mother Dis, he's just along for the ride, and his eventual fate has far less impact (as in the book)
So...what about poor Fili? He meets with the same "eventual fate"  He's my favorite, too, so I do find it particularly frustrating that the screen time is ever going to Kili and not him (Thorin's heir for goodness' sake!  )
keep smiling
(This post was edited by wonderinglinguist on Jan 22 2014, 5:28am)
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DwellerInDale
Nargothrond
Jan 22 2014, 7:17am
Post #50 of 69
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The Difference Between Could Have and Did Not
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Everything you propose is possible: have Thranduil speak to a Lindir; have the Orcs enter the Woodland Realm at some other point and a group of nameless Elves kill them and take one prisoner, scale back "Barrels Out of Bond" to be just the Dwarves floating down the river, etc. But all this then begs the question: Why? Just because you don't like the character Tauriel? The same "could have" arguments can be used with any character not in the book and not absolutely essential to the plot (Radagast, Galadriel, Saruman, Bain, Sigrid, Tilda, Alfrid, Miss Pikelet, etc. etc.).
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
(This post was edited by DwellerInDale on Jan 22 2014, 7:18am)
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