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burgahobbit
Nargothrond
Jan 28 2013, 1:59am
Post #1 of 28
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Sting Glows Blue When?
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Everybody knows the answer to that! “When the blade turns blue then the beer is as cold as the rocky Misty Mountains.” No? That’s not right? Oh sorry…ahem. Moving on!
“The blade glows blue when orcs or goblins are near!” There! That’s more like it!
Now you need to know a couple of things before reading this looong post. First, this is kind of a conspiracy theory about the hobbit movies…actually it really is, and you may have heard some or most of it before (I’ve been slacking on the forums lately so I wouldn’t really know. I've done a search but couldn't find all of this)…you have been warned!! Secondly, you need to know that Mount Gundabad is a mountain way in the North of Middle-earth above the Misty Mountains and Dol Guldur is Sauron’s fortress in the far southern end of Mirkwood. Lastly, the purpose of this post is to solve two of the biggest mysteries that have puzzled people in AUJ simultaneously. Got it? Good! Now we go on.
Now when I saw the film the first two times I was annoyed that Sting was glowing blue in the Misty Mountains with the goblins, but that it wasn’t when there were orcs in the “Out of the Frying Pan and Into the Fire Run” scene. I thought that it was just a really stupid mistake on the part of the visual effects crew, and I still kinda think that it might have been, but now I’m not so sure.
Then when I watched the movie a third time, I noticed that Bilbo also draws Sting in the Warg scene when the mounted orcs are surrounding them after Radagast draws them off. Guess what, it still wasn’t glowing blue! Did the filmmakers really make that big of a mistake twice in the film without anybody on the team noticing it!?!? I thought so at first, but now I don’t think so. I think there’s another reason and this is my idea for what they might be doing.
The first thing you need to remember is in the Misty Mountains when Gollum finally finishes off that scary goblin. Bilbo looks at his sword and it flashes off since there is no longer a living goblin or orc around. This could have just been a nice touch, and it seems like it at first. It could merely be an interesting little tidbit for geeks to pick up on and talk about. “Whoa that’s cool! The goblins have to be alive for Sting to glow!” But there may just be more to it than that too, and we’ll come back to it later for further review.
Now here’s the other end of this conspiracy theory of mine. I should say “our conspiracy theory” I suppose, for I’ve gathered the following information from many others (including my family). There have been several interesting and odd things noticed with the Gundabad orcs that are tracking the Company.
First of all, we know there’s something strange about them. They are not your usual orc. They travel in daylight, which was very odd for orcs in that time until the Uruk-hai came along, and they speak the Black Speech of Mordor, even though they are “Gundabad” orcs from a mountain about as far away from Mordor as you can get.
Secondly, their theme, used for both the hunting orcs and for Azog himself (dun-dun-dun-dunnnnnnn…da da da) is almost identical to the Dol Guldur theme heard whenever Radagast is involved in dealings with the old fortress and its inhabitants. Furthermore, Doug Adams, when trying to explain the Nazgul theme in the end of the film, said that there might be more of a connection between Azog and Saruon than meets the eye (or words to that effect).
Thirdly, Bolg is said to be a torturer in Dol Guldur who is rumoured to meet Gandalf there in future films. Now Bolg is the son of Azog who is “a giant, Gundabad orc” according to the films. I ask you this now: Why would the son of a “Gundabad orc” be living all the way down in Dol Guldur?? I think this is why: in Azanulbizar, you can clearly see the young Dwalin kill Bolg if you are looking for it and know Bolg’s design. I am thus convinced that if Bolg has a larger role in the next films as rumors say, then his dead body was found by the Necromancer and he is now an undead orc.
This brings us to the next odd tidbit:
“We’ve been hunting a pack of Orcs that came up from the South.” – Elrond to Gandalf in Rivendell. Wait a minute: Gundabad wargs and orcs from the mountain in the North have come up from the South? What? It doesn’t seem to make sense! But then again Dol Guldur is in the south, and maybe the Gundabad orcs moved there first and then went up to find Thorin and Company. But why would they all move there? Well if Bolg’s body was found by the Necromancer after Azanulbizar, then why not all of the orcs killed at Moria? They could have all been zombified by the Necromancer, including Azog!
“Let us examine what we know:” Thorin was almost sure that Azog would have been killed of his wounds in Moria, and we can see Bolg being killed by Dwalin in the same scene, as well as a great number of the other Gundabad orcs. The Gundabad orcs in the movie have an obvious connection to Sauron in their music and their speech, and they can travel in sunlight. Sting does not glow blue around them, and they have come from Dol Guldur though there home is Mount Gundabad. Maybe all of the Gundabad orcs are “neither living nor dead”, but rather undead, or zombie orcs!
Now you must really think I’m crazy, and your probably thinking, “Even if this were so, wouldn’t Sting still glow when the undead orcs are near anyway? This doesn’t prove anything.” The answer is no. I’m going to take you back to the Misty Mountains episode spoken of before to complete this post.
Was it only a neat little geeky moment for fans to see that the sword’s light goes out with the life of the goblins? Or were the filmmakers telling us something regarding the nature of Sting? Didn’t it seem like they really wanted to make it clear that the sword only glows for alive orcs. If the Gundabad orcs are undead, then Sting might not recognize them as the living orcs it used to glow for. It all ties together so well that I think it must be true. The filmmakers almost seem like they’re saying to us, “Look! Look! Sting goes out when the orc becomes dead…hint hint.” And then again “Look! Look at that everyone! Sting isn’t glowing anymore! Hey cast and crew come here! We messed up on that part! Dang it! What a huge mistake!!! (chuckle chuckle chuckle)”
So what do you think? Am I crazy, or is this plausible? Has this all been revealed or speculated before? Discuss! I would like to hear your comments and theories! 
- flurgaburgburrahobbit
"I have found it is in the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keep the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I am afraid, and he gives me courage." - Gandalf the Grey.
"Do not be afraid Mithrandir. You are not alone. If ever you should need my help, I will come." -Lady Galadriel.
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The Mitch King
Nargothrond
Jan 28 2013, 2:23am
Post #2 of 28
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all of what you said sounds VERY reasonable! Im not sure if Bolg died tho....or Azog. But sounds good!
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Joe20
Menegroth
Jan 28 2013, 2:31am
Post #3 of 28
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Well you have pretty much covered everything and it is certainly plausible with all the connections you've made. But personally, I really hope it isn't true. I don't consider myself a purist by any means and I didn't have a problem with them keeping Azog alive but a whole storyline of resurrection etc. would not be not to my liking.
(This post was edited by Joe20 on Jan 28 2013, 2:32am)
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bborchar
Nargothrond
Jan 28 2013, 2:34am
Post #4 of 28
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...when the movie requires it to do so XD All movies have inconsistencies...as long as it's not a major one that messes up the plot, I can usually overlook it and just go along for the ride.
As my friend stated: "It's a plot sword"
(This post was edited by bborchar on Jan 28 2013, 2:38am)
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moonrunes
Lindon
Jan 28 2013, 2:59am
Post #5 of 28
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you put a lot of effort into this, I think its plausible, and it
would look cool to see the necromancer in the midst of
thousands of dead orcs, just lying there.
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arithmancer
Hithlum
Jan 28 2013, 3:11am
Post #6 of 28
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My question about this theory.
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Others have raised the issues of whether PJ would go there/what a big and arguably inappropriate addition to the ME legendarium zombies would be. While I share these views, I also find it interesting to consider theories I don't find appealing in light of all of the evidence of the movies themselves.
We met a few of these orcs in the scene at Weathertop. Two things in that scene did not strike me as zombie-esque. References were made to their own "life" (which is normal for living beings, including, I presume, orcs, but do zombies have lives to pay with?) Also, would Wargs eat the undead?
Another thing to consider is, if this theory is true, what do other orcs and goblins know or think about it? Azog still interacts with them (as evidenced by the Great Goblin's awareness of the price on Thorin's head). Then again when Thorin asserts Azog died in battle long ago, the Great Goblin does not say he is still alive, his exact words are "So you think his defiling days are over?" Which I suppose you could consider supports your view, if your view is correct and the goblins are aware of this fact about Azog.
Personally I thought I saw some faint glowing by Sting at times in the "Into the Fire" scene also; it seems to me it glows brightly when the filmmakers are trying to focus our attention on something Sting's glow can communicate to us (e.g. "there are goblins near this cave!!" and "this Gollum creature is not a goblin, and is a killer!"). This will be something to investigate when the DVD comes out in March (to see more clearly in screencaps if this was a real glow or just Sting being shiny like a nice elf-made letter opener ought to be).
I think you are right to point out that the son of a Gundabad orc being in Dol Guldur, and the same Gundabad orc and his men coming "from the South", and the musical associations to Sauron of certain Orc scenes might require some explanation, but I think the explanation will be less exotic. Simply, that Sauron has recruited them into his service, and as he is in Dol Guldur, this make it reasonable that these orcs would spend time/visit there too. And Sauron would not need to have sought them out in Gundabad, as Moria, where these Orcs certainly were at the time of the battle of Azanulbizar, is not all that far from Dol Guldur.
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Jan 28 2013, 3:15am
Post #7 of 28
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Zombie Orcs...I think this had been passed around several times. But the blue glowing thing is an option with Elvin swords (And letter openers) how else are we to explain Glamdring. KS
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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jtarkey
Nargothrond
Jan 28 2013, 5:02am
Post #8 of 28
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This is a very intriguing theory...
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I'm not a huge fan of the idea, but I'd rather it come true. If for nothing else than to give a reason behind, what would otherwise be, very sloppy film making. You have certainly covered all the grounds and it really seems to make sense.
"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 28 2013, 5:14am
Post #9 of 28
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They've turned East, they're heading for Isengard!
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I'm not sure that the scriptwriters' sense of direction is all that strong. Nor am I sure they're capable of the level of subtlety you're ascribing to them, but it's an intriguing idea. I'd much rather believe that than when the sfx folk make Sting glow or not is arbitrary.
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Gelir
Nevrast
Jan 28 2013, 7:05am
Post #10 of 28
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Personally I thought I saw some faint glowing by Sting at times in the "Into the Fire" scene also I thought so too. When Bilbo is standing on the tree and pulls out Sting, I thought it was glowing blue. I'll have to look more closely next time!
It's a very interesting theory though. And who knows, maybe Azog was brought back, but not all of the orcs with him, so Sting could still glow blue during that scene and the theory could still be possible.
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Joe20
Menegroth
Jan 28 2013, 7:43am
Post #11 of 28
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Ok so I just re watched the end
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thanks to a certain bay of pirates. Anyway the glowing seems to come and go. For example when Bilbo pulls Sting from the warg it is not glowing. Yet when he stabs the orc after pushing him over it definitely is. But when he swings it out infront of himself as the wargs move closer it doesn't look like it is.
So perhaps its just something that got missed during the mad rush. But I also think the colour grading of the scene i.e the really dark blue and the moonlight reflecting on the characters may reduce the glow.
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macfalk
Doriath
Jan 28 2013, 8:21am
Post #12 of 28
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The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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deskp
Menegroth
Jan 28 2013, 9:06am
Post #13 of 28
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Sting does glow during the last part of the movie.
You dont really see sting during the warg attack post trollshaws and it's bright daylight.
I would assume sting glows more than 'normal' when the scripts calls for sting glowing.
As for Bolg, I don't think is face is bolted together during the Moria battle. But we have seen it is after. if hes a "zombie" or just healed/patched together by the necromancer or someone else I'm sure will be hinted at if he's in future movies.
I do not think Azog and his band of orcs are undead.
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Súlimë
Ossiriand
Jan 28 2013, 9:54am
Post #14 of 28
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... when it knows people are definitely looking at it 
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Ereinion Nénharma
Menegroth
Jan 28 2013, 12:50pm
Post #15 of 28
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...indeed be a potentially epic scene. I imagine the Sauron as seen in AUJ slowly walking up to a high rock amidst the dead orcs around the gate in Moria, stretching out his arms as if he were a Roman emperor who commands his folk to rise before him and then have the screen fade to black. And then we hear three times a sound we all recognize; a heart beating.
Although I'm not sure whether or not I would like a undead orc-scenario, it does sound pretty reasonable. And a scene as I described above would seem awesome to me 
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
(This post was edited by Ereinion Nénharma on Jan 28 2013, 12:51pm)
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burgahobbit
Nargothrond
Jan 28 2013, 1:31pm
Post #16 of 28
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Mostly it isn't blue, but sometimes it catches the moonlight which gives it a sort of bluish glow that is competely unlike the one scene in the Misty Mountains. The only time it looks like it might actually be glowing like it should be is when Bilbo finally finishes the beheader orc off, but that only lasts for about a second so I can't tell for sure. Now if they purposely made it glow when he stabbed the orc, I highly doubt they would have messed up the entire rest of the scene. It's especially obvious that it isn't glowing when he first drew the sword on the tree trunk and when he's waving it around at the wargs faces later on.
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burgahobbit
Nargothrond
Jan 28 2013, 1:45pm
Post #17 of 28
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I had thought of some of those too but not all of them. Those are some really good points concerning the orcs' "life". This could throw my whole theory off, but we'll have to wait and see.
To argue with one of your points though, I think that wargs would eat undead orc bodies. If the Necromancer had the orc spirits simply repossess their old dead bodies, then it would just be like eating a dead orc. So the orcs muight not be "zombies" but more like repossessed orc bodies. Sorry, this is getting really weird, isn't it? 
"I have found it is in the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keep the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I am afraid, and he gives me courage." - Gandalf the Grey.
"Do not be afraid Mithrandir. You are not alone. If ever you should need my help, I will come." -Lady Galadriel.
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burgahobbit
Nargothrond
Jan 28 2013, 1:56pm
Post #18 of 28
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I agree that would be a really really cool scene!
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I really like that moonrunes! Also, just after what you described I was thinking there could be a scene on the other end of the story where Bilbo leaves Sting lying around and Gandalf stumbles upon it just before they are about to begin journeying again. "Oh Bilbo! You almost forgot this!" Then Bilbo says "Thank you Gandalf!" and then Gandalf smiles and turns around, but then remembers something and looks at the sword again with a serious and queer look. "Bilbo? Was your sword glowing last night?! You were near orcs!" Then Bilbo could say, "Come to think of it, it wasn't!" "That is what I thought! Was it glowing in the Misty Mountains when you were near orcs?" "Yes it was!" "The entire time?" "Well, until the orc died." Then Gandalf figures it out and declares, "I'm leaving!" "Where are you going Gandalf? Will you be long?" "There are two many questions Bilbo, questions that need answering, and I have to leave the company and search for these answers! You must look after the dwarves in my stead. Trust me, they need looking after." And then he rides off.
Something like that right after your scene and then we cut back to the Necromancer.
"I have found it is in the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keep the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I am afraid, and he gives me courage." - Gandalf the Grey.
"Do not be afraid Mithrandir. You are not alone. If ever you should need my help, I will come." -Lady Galadriel.
(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Jan 28 2013, 1:58pm)
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esheming
Nevrast
Jan 28 2013, 3:08pm
Post #19 of 28
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Sting does glow during the Misty Mountains escape scene. When I saw the film in the theater, it struck me too that Sting wasn't glowing, so I kept focusing in on it and realized that it was indeed glowing after all. It's not as obvious in this scene because of the lighting of the bright fire all around, which is realistic. It is very bright in Gollum's lair because it is pitch dark there... As per Sting's light extinguishing when Gollum killed the goblin, I felt that was a simply a dynamic visual way of showing that Gollum was a danger to Bilbo, and to show that Gollum is not a goblin. I like your theories though, it's fun stuff to think about!
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Loresilme
Doriath
Jan 28 2013, 3:45pm
Post #20 of 28
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Well...there *was* that early interview with
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Benjamin Cumberbatch, in which he said, :"I'm playing Smaug through motion-capture and voicing the Necromancer, which is a character in the Five Legions War or something which I'm meant to understand."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/...peter-jackson-ending
Which made it sound as if the Necromancer was going to have a part in the battle itself. Most people assumed it was BC mis-speaking, that he was not familiar with the events and so just got things a bit jumbled up.
Or, is that just what we're *supposed* to think    ?
Your theory is very intriguing, burgahobbit. And you really have quite a bit of detail to support it and I found I was really curious to keep reading ! Of course there are things (effects & so forth) that are missed in movies, even in these films with all their attention to detail. However...really, something that important as the blue glow... ? I don't know, it would be a big miss. Particularly since it's such an important factor in other scenes and is specifically referenced in the dialogue so many times. Or is that the reason why - maybe they purposely did not want to mention / show it in each instance or draw attention to it too many times? Maybe they didn't want it to get repetitive or cheapen the effect, like it's some type of hi-tech alarm sensor or something?
It is something to think about ... we'll have to scrutinize a few more interviews and vlogs to come! These poor Hobbit actors and film folk, lol - they have to be so careful in what they say! We fans are waiting to pounce on their every syllable for some hidden meaning .
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Xanaseb
Dor-Lomin
Jan 28 2013, 3:47pm
Post #21 of 28
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yes, I'd rather go for the inconsistencies explanation... a Necromanced Orc-race is sooo crazy.. //
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--I'm a victim of Bifurcation--
__________________________________________
Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
__________________________________________
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Rostron2
Mithlond
Jan 28 2013, 4:22pm
Post #22 of 28
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I think they will remain unexplained.
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andwise
Ossiriand
Jan 28 2013, 5:11pm
Post #23 of 28
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Well done burgahobbit,you've certainly put some thought in to all that!!...sounds possible but I'm not sure.is it just because in certain light conditions ie outside,it seems not to glow so much.all will be revealed I'm sure.
Arrow....black arrow,I have saved you to the last.you have never failed me and always I have recovered you.I had you from my father and he from old.if ever you came from the forges of the true king under the mountain,go now and speed well
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Jan 28 2013, 7:33pm
Post #24 of 28
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"The only good Orc is an undead Orc." The Necromancer.
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Zombies to the right of them. Zombies to the left of them. Zombies in front of them.
No wait...not all beings raised from the dead are Zombies. Perhaps Zorks would be the correct term: Zorks and Zoblins...why its a whole undead city...Wraithville on the outskirts of Dol Guldur.
But seriously folks...
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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swordwhale
Dor-Lomin
Jan 28 2013, 8:42pm
Post #25 of 28
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"yes, I'd rather go for the inconsistencies explanation... a Necromanced Orc-race is sooo crazy.."
Sting is a victim of bifurcation.... (sometimes it feels like a glow, sometimes it doesn't...)
I'm voting for zombie apocalypse orcs...
Go outside and play...
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