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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Sep 28 2014, 9:58pm
Post #26 of 34
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Ha, well that was sort of my point.
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I think the feeling Bilbo would be vital is the only thing that makes full sense in book and film. You have to go with fate over planning.
You can't credibly present a case that Gandalf planned Bilbo's actions in either case - as I'm sure you can appreciate from your own example above. There isn't any reason for Gandalf to imagine Smaug had armoured his belly, left a weak spot, that Bilbo would get into conversation with the dragon (he was supposed to be unnoticed), that he would spot the weak point or any of the rest of the completely unpredictable and unlikely sequence of events which follow.
In either case Bilbo has proven absolutely central to the events, so Gandalf's faith is, against the odds, bourn out.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Sep 28 2014, 10:04pm)
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Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond
Sep 28 2014, 10:33pm
Post #27 of 34
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He foresees the need for a particular type of character - a hobbit - in the mountain against Smaug. As it stands, Bilbo's particular talents in the mountain don't have a payoff. It's only because he's a hobbit, and he's quick witted when it comes to words (just as in Gollum's cave) that Smaug is intrigued enough to stop and talk to him, giving him time to spot the weakness in his scales. If the intelligence he's gathered doesn't get used, then he hasn't fulfilled Gandalf's premonition that a hobbit will be vital in the mountain. Anyone could have annoyed the dragon and got it to leave the mountain to destroy Laketown - you don't need a burglar for that. That is the point in the book and - at least so far - in the films. It's an important part of the structure of the story.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Sep 28 2014, 10:44pm
Post #28 of 34
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I haven't ever had the view that Gandalf knew he wanted a hobbit - he wanted Bilbo in particular. I'm also not sure sure why being able to talk with dragons would be predicted to be a particularly hobbity trait, or that such a conversation could be predicted at all.
That it took place was clearly very handy, but not predictable by Gandalf. It is also no more handy, and certainly no more hobbity, than the flattery of Smaug which leads to the revelation about Laketown, and Smaug's demise.
The importance of Bilbo can be seen in countless ways after the event but it seems very strange to think this was Gandalf's plan. I also, personally, find the idea that any old hobbit would have done, to be a surprising one. I think Bilbo's fated role is one for Bilbo alone, no other character, hobbit or not, would have succeded in his place.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Sep 28 2014, 11:02pm
Post #29 of 34
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Just dug out the quote, actually
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From UT. The bit Gandalf predicted that Bilbo would be useful for was for his ability to sneak in without being heard or smelled by Smaug (as implied by "burglar" I suppose) as opposed to his conversational abilities.
"Suddenly in my mind these three things came together: the great Dragon with his lust, and his keen hearing and scent; the sturdy heavy-booted Dwarves with their old burning grudge; and the quick, soft-footed Hobbit."
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Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond
Sep 29 2014, 10:13am
Post #30 of 34
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There is somewhere a bit about it.
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He thought of the Shire and hobbits in relation to the task in hand. Bilbo's ability to creep about unnoticed is very much a hobbit feature. Also, not smelling like a dwarf. When Gandalf thinks of Bilbo as the hobbit for the job it is because he recognises some kind of spark of adventurous spirit. The point is that although things go wrong inside the mountain - leading to the destruction of Laketown, the one redeeming feature of the enterprise is that Bilbo manages to get the vital information that enables Bard to kill Smaug. That action justifies Gandalf's choice of the hobbit Bilbo, and is something that can be put up against all the destruction that the dwarves' actions cause. Without this plot point, the killing of Smaug is all down to Bard and the Laketowners - Bilbo and the dwarves are responsible only for the bad things that happen. Bard could have killed the dragon any time it came out; he could even have gone in and killed it without it ever coming to Laketown - if could rig up a portable wind lance. The dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf's actions are made to seem redundant by Bard's ability to kill the dragon without their help.
That weakens the narrative, which is probably why Tolkien made sure that Bilbo had an active role in Smaug's death. I would expect the film makers to do the same, albeit in a different way. They have made poor narrative choices in these films sometimes, though, so I'm not sure I'm right, unfortunately.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Sep 29 2014, 12:28pm
Post #31 of 34
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Ah well that's a different point but also one that I wouldn't agree with.
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I don't think we are supposed to see the company's actions in releasing the dragon on Laketown as justified or mitigated by Bilbo mentioning the bare patch within earshot of the thrush. Certainly there is no agency on Bilbo's part nor do the company seek to actively do anything to help whichever poor blighters are going to be on the recieving end of the angry dragon they have released - instead they spend their time getting stuck into divvying up the treasure.
If it had been a case of the company actively seeking to help others and remedy the destruction they have set in motion I might have read it differently. However, as it stands, one of the things I like most about the Hobbit is the fact that it steers away from a traditional heroic moral narrative - the heroes don't save the day (at various vital points) and that is part of the reason, in my eyes, that Thorin and co. don't emerge as victors and live happily ever after.
I fully accept that there will be different readings of this but, for me personally, the idea that somehow the goodies saved the day after all is not one that appeals. For me, that is why Bard only discovers the information accidentally as opposed to by their direct agency and intervention.
It strikes me as very similar to the idea that it is the unexpected arrival of the goblins which prevents the "good" armies from slaughtering each other over gold, not some rousing speech of unity from Thorin or Bilbo.
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Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond
Sep 29 2014, 1:34pm
Post #32 of 34
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It's got nothing to do with heroic narratives.
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Gandalf believed that Bilbo - as a hobbit - would be useful in the mountain. He turns out to be useful, and instrumental, in a way that nobody could predict. Just as Gollum turned out to be important. Gandalf has these hunches. Currently, Bilbo hasn't done anything useful in the mountain beyond what the dwarves could have done themselves. Gandalf's hunch about Bilbo seems a bit weak presently. Likewise, if the ring had got chucked in the mountain before Gollum turned up, the end result would be the same, but Gandalf's foresight would be in need of an MOT.
As for going and helping the Laketowners, they're much farther away than depicted in the film, and their their transport has been eaten and Thorin's not behaving well. The fact that they don't do anything useful is consistent with the story and the lack of a traditional outcome. They're partly helpless and partly not concerned enough about the people that have helped them.
I agree it would be better if the dwarves don't try to help the laketowners (it would have been a better film if they hadn't tried to fight Smaug at all, as in the book). Which just leaves the thrush as a solution. Unless leaving some of the dwarves in Laketown is part of the setup for this - but I don't see how. And I don't see how PJ could make the dwarves uninterested in helping out their own relatives and Thorin's heirs, who are stuck in the path of the dragon at the end of film 2. Come to think of it, PJ has significantly altered this aspect of the film by leaving some dwarves behind - there has to be a very strong reason for it.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Sep 29 2014, 2:37pm
Post #33 of 34
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Well for the different points I would feel differently
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On point one, I would personally feel that Bilbo has proved enormously useful in a wide range of ways. The particular one we are discussing is just one example and I think Gandalf's notion that Bilbo will we instrumental is amply demonstrated with or without it.
That said, I'm not sure it is a strong point in any case. After all Gandalf wanted Bilbo for his ability to remain undetected and the chance he could avoid the dragon's attention entirely. I think it would be rather generous to grant Gandalf the credit for Bilbo doing the exact opposite, in any case.
On point two, I think we agree (and this is precisely what I was trying to refer to with the heroic narrative point - this is not an heroic rescue of the destruction they caused).
My issue with the thrush is not its utility, it is it's liklihood (in my eyes) of being silly in the execution. For the reasons above, this therefore sways me against its inclusion (based on my own imagination of how it could be realised).
As for how it will play out, I don't know yet but I can well imagine conflict within the group over trying to help Laketown vs the lure of the treasure/ dragon sickness.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 29 2014, 2:38pm
Post #34 of 34
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I agree it would be better if the dwarves don't try to help the laketowners (it would have been a better film if they hadn't tried to fight Smaug at all, as in the book). Which just leaves the thrush as a solution. Unless leaving some of the dwarves in Laketown is part of the setup for this - but I don't see how. And I don't see how PJ could make the dwarves uninterested in helping out their own relatives and Thorin's heirs, who are stuck in the path of the dragon at the end of film 2. Come to think of it, PJ has significantly altered this aspect of the film by leaving some dwarves behind - there has to be a very strong reason for it. I think that the narrative purpose for the Dwarves left behind in Lake-town is to bring back news of Smaug's demise. In addition, they might repreresent an alternative to sending for Dain by raven.
I am beginning to wonder if, besides Peter Jackson's fear of spiders, he has something against birds.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 29 2014, 2:40pm)
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