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Bernhardina
Nargothrond
Sep 27 2014, 9:00am
Post #1 of 34
(1836 views)
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Smaug destroying Laketown
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How do think this scene will play out? From what I read on this board some of you think that the windlance will be destroyed so that Bard won’t be able to use it. That’s very interesting, because in that case Bard will have to kill Smaug with a small arrow like in the book. But it won’t happen right away, obviously. You can’t kill Smaug within two minutes of the movie, that’s just not going to work.
Within ten minutes, like with Saruman in ROTK EE? That’s more like it!
So will these ten minutes (at least) be pictures of Bard trying to kill the dragon? I doubt it! We have so many characters in Laketown now: Bard himself, his children, the dwarves (Fili, Kili, Oin, Bofur) and Tauriel (and Legolas? My guess is that he won’t be there at the attack, still chasing Bolg) and of course the Master and Alfrid.
BARD AND HIS CHILDREN
I think that he will try to get them to safety first, before attempting to kill anything. He might even think one (or all of them) died in the fire, because of the dramatic effect (but we do know they all survive, since we’ve seen pictures of them after the attack). So I think we will see him trying to find them, after he finds a way to get out of the cell. Then he will have to part with them and go after Smaug (this has potential of ripping my heart out).
FILI, KILI, OIN AND BOFUR
The dwarves, who we care about at this point, will be stuck in the firestorm as well. Probably helping the children – I do not know what shape Kili’s in. He seemed fine in that last scene in DoS after Tauriel healed him, but will he have difficulties getting out of Laketown? I really hope so!!
TAURIEL
Might go after Legolas? She won’t know he left the town. My guess is that she will stick with the dwarves, although, it would be more realistic if she would try to find him.
THE MASTER AND ALFRID
Probably won’t be at the center of attention here. Do we know they survive? Alfrid might, but it would be nice to have Smaug actually killing someone we know. Might that be the Master? It would also make sure the survivors of Laketown are leaderless, and turns to Bard.
So what do you think? How will this scene play out? And what are you most excited about??
(The reason I ask is I had a dream about this last night. I also dreamt that Thorin punshed Thranduil in the face, but that’s another matter entirely.)
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dormouse
Gondolin
Sep 27 2014, 10:29am
Post #2 of 34
(1099 views)
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I'd say the film will begin with a prologue of some sort - no idea what.
Once we get down to the action proper, I think the first thing we see will be Bilbo, watching Smaug's flight. Then Smaug himself, then the people of Laketown realising and panicking/ running/ taking up arms/ getting into boats/ whatever they try to do. Maybe the destruction of the bridge, as in the book. The Master saving himself and as much money as Alfrid can carry.
Interspersed with that, scenes of the people we care about. The dwarves and Tauriel will get the children out - except Bain, who is the only one who knows where the arrow is. He has to join forces with his father, even if he's sent away before the confrontation with Smaug. And as Bard is still in prison he has to get out somehow - maybe Bain will find and release him? My guess will be that Bard won't be rescuing the children first - I'd say that by the time he's out of jail Smaug will be there, and if he doesn't kill Smaug then attempts to rescue anyone would be pointless. I have no theories at all about windlance v. bow and arrow. It's in the back of my mind that they've talked about Bard killing the dragon with an ordinary bow, but I might have imagined that.
But there's another missing piece here, and I'd love to see it play out somehow. Bilbo actually knows about Smaug's missing scale. Bain (and Bard) only know it might be so. It's possible - and probably likely - that their knowledge will be enough to let them see it at the critical moment but then, why did they bring Bilbo in on it? I can't see any way Bilbo could tell them except by thrush-mail. It probably won't happen, but I'll be grinning from ear to ear if it does.
As for Legolas, he's going to see it happen from the shore, and be involved in rescuing survivors.
Those are my guesses. Probably all moonshine, but we'll see soon enough.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Sep 27 2014, 11:20am
Post #4 of 34
(1080 views)
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ONE Geeky Observation brought up before...
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IF you look at our Current Teaser Trailer...
On the Very Far Left in the Shot
of Leggy & T-Girl..you can see
Destroyed Laketown, @:24 sec.
in the smoke...in the distance...
The Windlance survives!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSzeFFsKEt4
SSOoo...That is one mystery Solved
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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dormouse
Gondolin
Sep 27 2014, 12:43pm
Post #5 of 34
(1031 views)
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OK - (and I'm playing devil's advocate here)....
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If this is a planned sequence of ideas - 1) tell the audience, through Bain, that legend says Girion wounded the dragon; 2) show the audience that Smaug really does have a weakness by allowing Bilbo to see the missing scale - if the audience needed two statements of this in the course of one film, won't they need reminder now a whole year has elapsed between films? With Smaug looming down over Laketown and flames everywhere, and Bard struggling to aim his single arrow, is the audience going to be shouting - as they should - "look for the missing scale!"? I doubt if they will - unless someone reminds them about it.
You see, I'm guessing that the first we'll see of all this when the film proper begins will be Bilbo, still following Smaug's flight towards the Lake. And I suppose he might mutter to himself, "I hope they see that missing scale", and that would be the reminder, but the way is wide open for the thrush to overhear him and, well, tweet (if you'll pardon the expression) the message to Bard. Isn't it?
Do I expect this to happen? No, to be honest I don't - but I'd be more than delighted if it does!
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dormouse
Gondolin
Sep 27 2014, 12:53pm
Post #6 of 34
(994 views)
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.. that doesn't mean Bard actually uses it, does it? 
Well spotted, though!
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Arannir
Doriath
Sep 27 2014, 1:05pm
Post #7 of 34
(986 views)
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But where exactly do you spot the Windlance?
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"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Sep 27 2014, 1:14pm
Post #8 of 34
(1011 views)
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Tallest spot in Laketown is THERE..Trust me
Far left just before the trees.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Arannir
Doriath
Sep 27 2014, 1:41pm
Post #9 of 34
(973 views)
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... I see the remains of a tower which might be the Townhall's tower... but the top with the ballista might still be missing, though.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Sep 27 2014, 1:56pm
Post #10 of 34
(1008 views)
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The Windlance is on TOP of the Master's Chambers
or so
Bomby Believes...so In the PLOT when
Bard is Freed by his Son,
Bain..?
They get the
Black ARROW &
Barge into the Master's Home...Racing up the stairs...
THEY Encounter the Master & Alfrid?
"SmackDown Time"..since the Master is gathering up his Goodies to Flee...Then
GET to the TOP!
Why? does
Bomby
Believe thizzz possible plot line?
1. Really Expensive SET (Where the Dwarves will party,
Bofur gets Drunk, missing the Boat)
2. Revenge from Bard with
"Save us" from Stephen Fry allowing him more Screen time
(Also, allowing US, to Hate him even more!)
Then with Bain's Help,
Aims...
Allowing John
Bell to
BE a... Worldwide Kids
HERO TOO!.
......................................................
Badda
Bing
Badda
Bong!
Bomby loves the Letter
"B"
(Tolkien DID too!)
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond
Sep 27 2014, 4:33pm
Post #11 of 34
(954 views)
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If people here are right, this will be the worst departure so far. It is critical to the plot of the book that the choice of Bilbo as burglar enables the dragon to be killed. Bilbo's burglary, and his quick thinking in keeping Smaug talking long enough to spot the gap in his scales is what enables Bard to kill him, despite everything else going wrong. If you remove the means by which Bilbo's discovery gets transmitted to Bard, then Bilbo's role becomes redundant: any old bunch of dwarves could have annoyed the dragon enough to send him to Laketown and enable Bard to get a lucky shot in - no hobbit required.
I trust Mr Jackson will keep this important plot point intact, even if he doesn't use the thrush to convey the message. Perhaps a raven. My personal choice would be to use the thrush - it's established as a character already in both previous films - it doesn't need to talk; just as bees can give information physically, something subtle like raising a wing to show where the weak spot is - and an indication that Bard can read birds - just as a modern naturalist can - would be enough for the audience to get the connection.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond
Sep 27 2014, 4:42pm
Post #12 of 34
(929 views)
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they get the message to Laketown via raven/thrush and simple pigeon post - a written note attached. That would give the dwarves and Bilbo something urgent to do while Smaug is destroying Laketown - a sense of peril - will the bird get through in time etc. and will it find Bard? As long as Smaug takes a good while to destroy Laketown, there would be time to set that up. Presumably, such a messaging system was used in the past and Thorin/Balin would know about it. Also gives Thorin something positive to do.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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dormouse
Gondolin
Sep 27 2014, 4:53pm
Post #13 of 34
(924 views)
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I think the opening is there for some contact to be made...
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..between Bilbo's knowledge of Smaug's weak spot and Bard's need to find it. Seems to me they've set it up that way - though I do take Daniel's point. But the more I think about this the more I will feel there's something missing if Bilbo's knowledge doesn't play some part in alerting Bard, however they choose to make it happen.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Sep 27 2014, 5:26pm
Post #14 of 34
(908 views)
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If this is a planned sequence of ideas - 1) tell the audience, through Bain, that legend says Girion wounded the dragon; 2) show the audience that Smaug really does have a weakness by allowing Bilbo to see the missing scale - if the audience needed two statements of this in the course of one film, won't they need reminder now a whole year has elapsed between films? With Smaug looming down over Laketown and flames everywhere, and Bard struggling to aim his single arrow, is the audience going to be shouting - as they should - "look for the missing scale!"? I doubt if they will - unless someone reminds them about it.
You see, I'm guessing that the first we'll see of all this when the film proper begins will be Bilbo, still following Smaug's flight towards the Lake. And I suppose he might mutter to himself, "I hope they see that missing scale", and that would be the reminder, but the way is wide open for the thrush to overhear him and, well, tweet (if you'll pardon the expression) the message to Bard. Isn't it?
Do I expect this to happen? No, to be honest I don't - but I'd be more than delighted if it does!
You're guess is as good as mine, dormouse. I just wanted to throw the idea out there. If the audience need a reminder about the missing scale, then they will probably need a reminder about the prophecy and the hidden black arrow. Unless we get another flashback for the prologue. Perhaps the molten gold has filled the hole, and now Smaug is indestructible. 
I'd love to see the thrush too. We shall see!
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 27 2014, 8:28pm
Post #15 of 34
(864 views)
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Well, the thrush NEVER needed to talk.
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I trust Mr Jackson will keep this important plot point intact, even if he doesn't use the thrush to convey the message. Perhaps a raven. My personal choice would be to use the thrush - it's established as a character already in both previous films - it doesn't need to talk; just as bees can give information physically, something subtle like raising a wing to show where the weak spot is - and an indication that Bard can read birds - just as a modern naturalist can - would be enough for the audience to get the connection.
The thrush never used the common tongue of Men in the book either; Bard could understand its bird-speech. The only real complication for this in the films is that TH:DoS does nothing to set this up. Instead, he already knows from verbal tradition about his ancestor Lord Girion loosening a scale from the dragon's body.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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FoFo64
Ossiriand
Sep 28 2014, 6:31pm
Post #16 of 34
(743 views)
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Your concerns are understandable...
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But after watching the movie several times I have to say I do not think they will have a thrush inform Bard of Smaug's weakness. As far as film-making goes I think that flashback of Girion battling Smaug is meant to demonstrate that there was already some knowledge of the possibility of Smaug missing a scale. I think this was done deliberately as PJ seems to be avoiding having to include any talking animals in these movies.
As far as whether or not removing Bilbo's role in discovering Smaug's weakness ruins the movie, I'd have to say that I don't think it does. Yes, it's a major change from the novel, however if you look at the movie as its own stand alone story, Bilbo has already proved his worth several times along their journey, and has saved the dwarves from certain death on more than one occasion.
In the movie version, were it not for Bilbo the Trolls would've surely killed some or all of the dwarves before Gandalf's arrival. During the nightime Orc raid atop the Misty Mountains, Bilbo saved Thorin's life against Azog. In Mirkwood, Bilbo saved the entire company from being eaten alive by spiders. And later he allows them to escape from Thranduil's halls so that they may arrive at the Lonely Mountain by Durin's Day.
So you see, were it not for Bilbo the quest would've already failed. And one can even argue that in the film he was also useful against Smaug, because it allowed him to potentially nab the Arkenstone while riddling with Smaug (yet to be seen, but I have a gut feeling he grabbed it before Smaug flew off). If Bilbo were not there, Smaug would've instantly smelled the dwarves and not hesitated to try and kill them much quicker. Plus he went to Laketown due to Bilbo's unintentional mentioning of barrels. Smaug would've prob stayed there and killed the dwarves otherwise.
On a side note, yes, in a way Bilbo did cause Smaug to kill the people of Laketown. Of course the dwarves are to blame too, for the quest in general. But yeah lol.
'It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing...such a little thing...' Boromir; Fellowship of the Ring Film
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Bishop
Mithlond
Sep 28 2014, 6:37pm
Post #17 of 34
(731 views)
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But after watching the movie several times I have to say I do not think they will have a thrush inform Bard of Smaug's weakness. As far as film-making goes I think that flashback of Girion battling Smaug is meant to demonstrate that there was already some knowledge of the possibility of Smaug missing a scale. I think this was done deliberately as PJ seems to be avoiding having to include any talking animals in these movies
Radagast understands animals, but that's really different. You're exactly right that talking animals, at least in the thrush sense, will not exist here. But to take your idea on the flashback further, it's even common knowledge that there is a scale missing. Bard's son talks about it directly. So in a sense the scene with Bilbo is really just confirmation for the audience, whereas Bard already knows about it. Or at least he knows about the specific possibility.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Sep 28 2014, 7:22pm
Post #18 of 34
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Just goes to show the breadth of differing views, I suppose, but I genuinely didn't think there was an idea I liked less than that of Bard chatting with a thrush, but now that I picture the miming thrush, lifting one wing and pointing with the pinion of the other, I realise this pips it to the post!
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Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond
Sep 28 2014, 7:49pm
Post #19 of 34
(720 views)
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OK, so the Gandalf Thorin conversation would go...
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G: and for that, you are going to need a burglar.
T: Well, actually, I don't think we really do - at least not once we get there.
G: Eh?
T: I mean, he's probably going to wake up the dragon anyway - they're very light sleepers, and there won't be much he can really do that we can't...
G: But...
T: I now you're supposed to have foresight and suchlike, but I'm just not seeing it...
G: Er...look, just take him along, OK; for if you don't, things may or may not go well for you. And mark this! - I am sometimes right about things, by accident or something.
T: Well, I suppose he might be some use on the way - you know if we happen to be attacked unexpectedly by forces that neither you nor I have predicted - so, although that wouldn't say much for your famous foresight, he might accidentally prove to be an asset, I suppose. So, OK, we'll take him along.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 28 2014, 8:19pm
Post #20 of 34
(711 views)
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There never was a talking thrush.
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But after watching the movie several times I have to say I do not think they will have a thrush inform Bard of Smaug's weakness. As far as film-making goes I think that flashback of Girion battling Smaug is meant to demonstrate that there was already some knowledge of the possibility of Smaug missing a scale. I think this was done deliberately as PJ seems to be avoiding having to include any talking animals in these movies Radagast understands animals, but that's really different. You're exactly right that talking animals, at least in the thrush sense, will not exist here. But to take your idea on the flashback further, it's even common knowledge that there is a scale missing. Bard's son talks about it directly. So in a sense the scene with Bilbo is really just confirmation for the audience, whereas Bard already knows about it. Or at least he knows about the specific possibility.
Again, the thrush never spoke in the common tongue (Westron). It only used bird-speech that Bard, as a descendant of Girion, could understand. Since the thrush has already been introduced in the films, it would be nice to see it used here somehow.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 28 2014, 8:30pm)
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Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond
Sep 28 2014, 8:23pm
Post #21 of 34
(715 views)
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You've drawn a rather lurid picture there - which bears no resemblance to what I was suggesting. The thing could just land next to Bard - a quick sideways glance at it and he realises its significance. There are ways and means that a talented film maker could use. We've already had Gandalf's moth reappearing; not sure why PJ would shy away from this kind of thing when he's happily inserting it elsewhere where it's not actually needed.
I think, though, that because they haven't set this up in the previous film, it will be difficult to do it without clunkiness. Will there even be enough time for a bird to get to Laketown in the truncated time-frame of the films? But, if they don't what is the point of Bilbo noticing Smaug's weak spot?
Just goes to show the breadth of differing views, I suppose, but I genuinely didn't think there was an idea I liked less than that of Bard chatting with a thrush, but now that I picture the miming thrush, lifting one wing and pointing with the pinion of the other, I realise this pips it to the post!
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Sep 28 2014, 8:38pm
Post #22 of 34
(697 views)
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Perhaps it is an issue of my own lack of imagination
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But I can't picture it looking anything other than silly.
On the issue of Bilbo noticing, this could simply be highlighting it to the audience, but who knows, it may be conveyed by some more prosaic means.
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Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond
Sep 28 2014, 9:05pm
Post #23 of 34
(709 views)
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...It's people like you that killed off the talking purse.
Anyway, I don't really care how they do it, as long as they get Bilbo's inside information to Bard somehow. If they don't then the fuss they made about Gandalf's presentiment regarding the usefulness of a hobbit against Smaug becomes rather pointless.
They could use ravens as a realistic solution - basically as carrier pigeons, but they haven't set up such a messaging system in the previous films - showing them being used in Dale in the prologue, for example. In fact, I don't think we've seen any ravens at all yet?? - so too late to introduce them I expect.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Sep 28 2014, 9:21pm
Post #24 of 34
(689 views)
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I am sure I would have argued vociferously agains that silliness too.
I'm not sure I took Gandalf's overt reasoning for Bilbo's inclusion as extending beyond his role as burglar for reconnaissance and treasure-remover. As for the more fate-based aspects, then surely Bilbo's role is in getting the dragon out of the mountain and within reach of Bard's bow?
I think in fairness, looking at your script above, it would be equally tricky to describe Gandalf's plan to Thorin as including events as they occurred in the text - "We need a burglar just in case Smaug has protected the famous soft belly of a dragon with something but has left some sort of a weak-point which would only be of use to an incredibly accurate archer so let's also assume that the burglar will say something to Samug which will get him to go to the place where this hypothetical archer is and the burglar can get the message to him via some sort of magical bird which hopefully this archer, whoever he is, will be lucky enough to have the right bloodline to understand."
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Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond
Sep 28 2014, 9:46pm
Post #25 of 34
(683 views)
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Well that's where the old foresight comes in.
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He just has a feeling that it's absolutely vital to bring a hobbit along. Just getting Smaug out of the mountain wasn't due to any hobbity skills - it was the combination of Bilbo's unfamiliar smell, his quietness and quick-wittedness that leads to him keeping Smaug chatting long enough to spot the weakness. That's the stuff you need a hobbit for. And without those things having a pay-off in getting the vital news to Bard, then Gandalf's foresight seems a bit too hit and miss, especially as he did the whole room darkening thing to emphasise his point.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Here is another PROOF?
[
1
