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Advising Elf
Nargothrond
Mar 20 2007, 6:08pm
Post #1 of 31
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*WISE Passage of the Day* No. 2
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Hello friends!
The first passage of wisdom in the LOTR text is probably one of the most famous due to PJ's films. IIRC, in PJ's FotR, Gandalf's line is straight out of the text (not in the same setting, but we take what we can get). It also gets repeated at the climax of the film. If you haven't guessed it already, here it is:
‘...Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.’
‘I wish it need not have happened in my time,’ said Frodo.
‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.’
This isn't exactly an original idea of The Prof's, but it is still powerful and true.
I don't have anything to add to this. I rarely have much to add. If I did, I'd post this in the Reading Room instead of on Main.
Instead, I merely serve it up as a reminder of the gems that our favorite story is studded with, and as a point ponder.
Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/
(This post was edited by Advising Elf on Mar 20 2007, 6:10pm)
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Ginger
Nargothrond
Mar 20 2007, 7:06pm
Post #2 of 31
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More than one wise passage in there
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I agree, there's not much you can add to "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us". It applies to all that happens in life. There's adversity in everyone's lives; you show what kind of person you are by how you handle it.
I do like your line "not in the same setting, but we take what we can get". I don't want to start any arguments. I accept the films for what they are. I just like it when the text appears in the film. And we should just be happy with what we get.
And this is a wise line too, "as a reminder of the gems that our favorite story is studded with". So very true!
*note to self*
Learn new boards. "Sticky" is not an admonishment to a tornsib named Sticky.
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Advising Elf
Nargothrond
Mar 20 2007, 8:01pm
Post #3 of 31
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I'm still of two minds about the movies.
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That's why comments like that come out once in a while.
On the one hand, having seen what can happen to a book's story by the time it gets to the screen, I'm grateful for the movies being what they are (also greatly impressed by what PJ & Co. went through to get them made). Then I'll remember something that was changed or added (unecessarily, IMnsHO), and I'll get all upset about it.
In that vein, I'm glad Gandalf said this and not Legolas.
Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 20 2007, 9:55pm
Post #4 of 31
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There are two very different thoughts contained in this quote.
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The second thought -- that "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us," is far less controversial among mortal men, at least. It seems a bit odd coming out of the mouth of the immortal Maia Gandalf, though, if you think about it. Shouldn't he really be saying "you" instead of "we" and "us"?
But for mortal men it is hard to deny that we have no choice about the time in which we live, and must decide what to do with that time. This must have been a hard pill for Tolkien personally to swallow, though, considering the times in which he lived, and his obsession with the past.
The first thought, however, that "Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again," is not universally accepted by any means. It's not even obviously true in the text of LotR, where the Shadow is indeed defeated, and Gandalf predicts that Sauron, at least, will never take another shape and grow again. Isn't Sauron the Shadow and the Shadow Sauron? Maybe not.
Those who have read the Silmarillion may have a better idea of what Tolkien means, for those stories span several Ages, and until the Second Age Sauron is a mere lieutenant. Will one of Sauron's lieutenants become a new Dark Lord in the Fourth Age?
Perhaps Tolkien was headed that direction when he made a brief start on a sequel to LotR, but in his letters and in the Foreword to the Second Edition of LotR he goes in a different direction, suggesting that all modern states exhibit, more or less, orcish behavior. And note how at the end of LotR the ruffians are literally composed of many half-orcs, suggesting that orcish blood has been introduced into the human race to stay. We have become our own Enemy, our own Shadow.
On the other hand, the strain of Elvish blood that had almost died out of the human race has been strengthened by the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn, and the promise that they will have heirs. So, to paraphrase Carl Spackler from Caddyshack, we have that going for us, which is nice.
This theory of Ages is more typical of myths than of science. How true is it in the Primary World? In his letters and essays Tolkien seems to have rejected the idea of history as Progress, in which the only Shadow is Ignorance and Superstition. But of course history does not have to follow a pattern. It does not have to be a decline, an ascent, or a cycle. It could be random or chaotic.
If Tolkien is offering hope for the Primary World, it is a somber hope, for it assumes that only at the end of Time can we count on truly defeating the Shadow, and until then the Shadow will tend to grow stronger and stronger, despite temporary set-backs. It is an apocalyptic vision, and not without controversy when applied to the Primary World.
Then again, Tolkien did not set his fantasy in the Primary World. But taking Gandalf's quotes as bits of wisdom implies that they apply not just to Middle-earth but also to the Primary World. I have to say, it is a risky business to draw life lessons from fantasy, and perhaps not what Tolkien had in mind. He was defiantly escapist and non-topical. I have no doubt that in Middle-earth, what Gandalf says is quite literally true. But the rules of Middle-earth are not necessarily the rules of the Primary World.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 20 2007, 10:23pm
Post #5 of 31
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Gandalf's time in Middle-earth was limited: he was sent as the enemy of Sauron, and his task was to remain until either Sauron's defeat, or his own defeat at Sauron's hands. With the Ring being found, he knew his time of departure was drawing near.
"...the Shadow takes another shape and grows again" refers to that which is, or causes, evil. In Middle-earth, it is Morgoth and his subordinates. In the real world, it is greed, hunger for power, callousness, lack of conscience, and all those things which cause Man to be inhumane to Man; Tolkien would call this "Satan". We fight wars, only to have one evil power replaced by another. We start to do good, and it is undermined by hate. This is a world of constant struggle against Shadows! No, there's no distinct "pattern", it is random and chaotic, occurring in waves that are minute and tsunami, broad and broken. But the fall and rise of Shadows does occur.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Confusticate and bebother these dwarves!"
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Aerlinn
Menegroth
Mar 20 2007, 10:43pm
Post #6 of 31
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No matter how many tomorrows Gandalf had in front of him, he still had today to deal with, just like Frodo...
'I cannot read the furry letters,' said Frodo in a quavering voice.
'No,' said Gandalf, 'but I can.'
'One Ring to drool on them all, One Ring to heed them
One Ring to bring them all and remind them all to feed them
In the land of Kitchen where the litter lies.'
My TORn archives - to be updated sooner or later
630.63
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 20 2007, 11:50pm
Post #7 of 31
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That's one way of looking at it.
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But although Gandalf's time in Istari form was somewhat limited (only a couple of thousand years!), in The Sil Tolkien says that his spirit had been to Middle-earth before, and it is pure speculation to say that his spirit would never visit Middle-earth again.
As for the nature and life-cycle of evil in the Primary World, that is a subject of much debate, and little consensus. I come here to escape such debates, and I think Tolkien also found refuge in fantasy.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Mar 21 2007, 1:00am
Post #8 of 31
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But even if Gandalf did return
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Then it would be for a new task, or maybe a "vacation" (if Istari indulge in those!). In the former case, once again he would have a certain amount of time (most likely indeterminate) in which to accomplish or fail at that task - and so once again, the saying would hold.
Now, as for "vacations"...hm, depends on how strict a boss Manwë is. Gandalf could be an undercover agent who's allowed to go off on his own, but must be on-call when the need arises. In which case, he'd be sure to make the best use of the time that is given him!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Confusticate and bebother these dwarves!"
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Mar 21 2007, 1:36am
Post #9 of 31
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Of course Gandalf took vacations.
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Couldn't resist.
I wish you could have been there
When she opened up the door
And looked me in the face
Like she never did before
I felt about as welcome
As a Wal-Mart Superstore--John Prine
(This post was edited by Morwen on Mar 21 2007, 1:37am)
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Mar 21 2007, 2:57am
Post #10 of 31
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Love it! Especially Sam's Smaug-float!
I notice the wielder of the Flame of Anor has an appropriate motif on his jams...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Confusticate and bebother these dwarves!"
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Mar 21 2007, 9:55am
Post #11 of 31
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It feels like Gandalf's words are completed later in the story
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when the Captains of the West are debating what to do after the victory on Pelennor. Gandalf says:
"'...Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule...'
It seems to follow the same belief as your passage, but it carries it further in thought.. and reality, imho. We cannot hope to heal the woes that would ever face the world (personal or globally), but we must strive to make the days we do have influence over as good and safe as we can. With that labour and that example for those who follow (children/grandchildren/believers), p'raps the generations to come will be better as others take up the responsibility of caring enough to make the effort... and not forget history and become complacent.
*climbs off soap box* ;)
 
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 21 2007, 10:24am
Post #12 of 31
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I find your quote more applicable
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to the Primary World, because it is less definitive. Other evils may come. That is hard to dispute, unless one takes the extreme position that there is no such thing as evil. Even relativists tend to believe in evils -- they just doubt whether there is an objective measure of what is evil, let alone a manifestation of Evil such as what Gandalf calls the Shadow.
Again, I find it a little strange for the immortal Gandalf to be uttering these sentiments, which really apply more to mortals. But as dernwyn has noted, Gandalf's time as an Istari was limited, and may have given him the perspective of a mortal man.
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Advising Elf
Nargothrond
Mar 21 2007, 12:39pm
Post #13 of 31
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People so often feel like what they do doesn't matter because it didn't change the world. I don't know who said it, but I've heard this:
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."
Not nearly as poetic as Gandalf's words, though.
Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/
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Advising Elf
Nargothrond
Mar 21 2007, 12:49pm
Post #14 of 31
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Glad I read this before I replied to Curious.
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The only thing I'd add concerning what you said is that, in addition to "Satan", man's fallen state, or sinful nature, is responsible for much, or even most, of the evil in this world. People can do a lot of of evil without any help at all.
Reminds me of a line by comedian Brad Stine about people who blame Satan for the things they do themselves: "All Satan did was wake you up in the morning and you took it from there."
Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/
(This post was edited by Advising Elf on Mar 21 2007, 12:50pm)
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Advising Elf
Nargothrond
Mar 21 2007, 12:59pm
Post #15 of 31
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Definitely agree about the "life lessons from fantasy".
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One may receognize truths in a fanatsy story, but taking life lessons from them can be tricky. Similar to learning "history" from a movie.
Also, concerning the regrowth of the shadow and evil, I refer you to gramma's reply above, where she quotes Gandalf from The Last Debate.
Oh yeah, first time I've heard Caddyshack and LotR compared. ;o)
Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/
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sherlock
Mithlond
Mar 21 2007, 1:35pm
Post #16 of 31
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One of the few thing I remember about my
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first reading of LOTR was this particular part and how profound it was. It also really stuck out the first time I saw FOTR. It caught me by surprise coming when it did and really got to me. As you say, we take what we get.
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Advising Elf
Nargothrond
Mar 21 2007, 1:48pm
Post #17 of 31
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My first "You've got to kidding me!" moment in the films. . .
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was when this section (not just this quote, but ones that follow that will have their own WpotD post) wasn't in "The Shadow of the Past" scene in FotR. I just couldn't believe it. Once it showed up I felt a lot better. It does provide a good introduction for Gollum in Moria, and Gandalf is still the one who says it, so the relocation of it never bothered me that much, especially when I had so many other things to be bothered about.
Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 21 2007, 2:10pm
Post #18 of 31
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I saw gramma's quote and replied to it.
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There is a subtle-but-important difference between the two quotes, as I noted in response to gramma. Both quotes are wise in Middle-earth, but gramma's quote is more broadly applicable to the Primary World, and less controversial when applied.
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Mar 21 2007, 2:39pm
Post #19 of 31
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of evil(s) had to be influenced by his own fall in Moria. An end to one's time or existence in a place or space will come... but not necessarily through death. When we move on, others will take our place. The only way we could possibly influence future generations and their world is through our choices and actions (obviously... and hopefully ;)
Just as I believe there is great goodness and devine existence... there is evil also. While there's no limitation or boundary to good, so it is for evil, I've found. It's a balance that gives us choice.
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 21 2007, 4:48pm
Post #21 of 31
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Gandalf is also speaking of the future
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in your quote, while to Frodo he was speaking of the past. The past of which he was speaking is the fictional history of Middle-earth, in which the Shadow always reforms and grows into a new Dark Lord, a manifestation of Evil, and a Source of all evils. But the future of which he speaks is the readers' present, in which it is not so easy to locate and point to one Source of evil, i.e. the Shadow ... but yes, evils still exist.
Great point about Gandalf's fall! I agree that Gandalf's fall in Moria may have given him a new insight into mortality, since he is the only Maia ever to have died in the mortal sense. Furthermore when he was sent back to Middle-earth after that fall he knew he had a very brief time indeed to carry out his assignment, and that such time had literally been given to him by Eru Himself. So he had to make the most of it, and more importantly persuade the free peoples of Middle-earth to do the same.
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silneldor
Gondolin
Mar 21 2007, 5:31pm
Post #22 of 31
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within the circle of being whether humble or exalted. Within all that circle of being lies evil where no shelter will be found. There is no 'other' There is only 'we'. Look where Sauron came from.
Is not fantasy also part of the primary world As in anything involving truth ,in the primary world or primary based fantasy, is it in the end to decipher, with either, what is real, good or evil. The term 'not necessarily' doesn't seem to fit here exactly.
"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."
Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez
A little bit of Rivendell to warm the home
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elvenhobbit
Nargothrond
Mar 21 2007, 6:34pm
Post #23 of 31
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that line is probably the most famous line from people...
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when asked about LOTR.
-e_H-
Elven by name, Hobbit by nature
'Road lead ever on and on
down from the door where it began
now far ahead the road has gone
down from where all began' -FOTR-
and through all the world has changed
the ages come and go with time
and yet those remain unchanged
unto they journey westward
over the sea...
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Advising Elf
Nargothrond
Mar 21 2007, 6:39pm
Post #24 of 31
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Actually, I think "It comes in pints?!" is more famous.
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Just kidding. Besides, "It comes in pints?!" is not a Tolkien line, so it doesn't count anyway.
Actually, the lines that follow this about Pity and Mercy (which will soon be the subject of a WPotD post) were the ones that had the most impact on me, although this is right up there with them.
Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/
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Ginger
Nargothrond
Mar 21 2007, 7:06pm
Post #25 of 31
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Why is Jerry Garcia in the middle of the picture?
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*note to self*
Learn new boards. "Sticky" is not an admonishment to a tornsib named Sticky.
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