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Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
May 19 2008, 1:26am
Post #1 of 38
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From Balin, Smaug’s look, Bard’s introduction, Fellowship connections and more
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So, as some of you know, I have been reading The Hobbit once again. A couple of days ago, I presented a thread in which I talked of what should be changed about Beorn and his introduction in the story.
Now, I wish to talk to you about several things that dawned on me while reading from the arrival to Esgaroth until Smaug’s death.
First of all, we have talked about how 13 dwarves might be too much for available screentime, however it seems as if, apart from Thorin, there are four other dwarves that play a prominent role: Balin, Dwalin, Fili and Kili.
Fili and Kili are always scouts, and are killed in the Battle of the Five Armies, so the audience should be able to relate to them, so their deaths are meaningful.
Dwalin is the first one of the dwarves that interacts prominently with Bilbo. (of course that could be changed to Balin to reinforce the following) Balin is the one that becomes the fondest of Bilbo. Since he sneaked through his watch, he increasingly respects him, and even he is the one that visits him periodically after their adventure. This, has a huge advantage: if Balin is shown prominently and as a likeable character, Gimli’s pain in Fellowship becomes all the greater and relatable to the audience, adding an extra dimension, to an already excellent Moria sequence.
Next matter: Guillermo’s views in Smaug were a little clearer now that I’ve read all there is to read about Smaug in The Hobbit. I don’t know I it was mentioned when we discussed it at length, but Smaug’s glow might be just what Guillermo was talking about. It is said he glows even outside the Mountain, so, from the text, I would gather he possesses some kind of self illumination, which is would be interesting when you add the jewels on his belly. As for his appearance within the Halls under the Mountain, there might be an additional thing to consider: The Arkenstone, which is mentioned to break light into the colors of the rainbow. It is also said to have been on top of the treasure, making this effect quite noticeable, probably. That could affect his look and glow further.
That brings me to the third matter itself: The Arkenstone. I was thinking it would help for I to be mentioned since Bag End, to make clear how much Thorin wanted it, and dramatize Bilbo’s actions even further.
An earlier presentation, takes me the fourth matter at hand: Bard’s introduction. It has been mentioned here, and noted by Guillermo himself, that Bard is strangely and abruptly introduced in the middle of Smaug’s attack.
This is actually of the issues that could be addressed in the easiest fashion: introduce him during Thorin’s first arrival to Esgaroth, at the feast. Have Bard interact a little with Thorin, have them have a deep conversation while overlooking The Mountain, telling him how his mother talked about Thror and Thrain… make him a little more familiar to both Thorin and the audience. After that, keep him unchanged, and his character would make a lot of sense.
In further connections to The Fellowship, it should be made a solemn moment the one in which Thorin gifts the Mithril to Bilbo. Nice connection, again, makes Frodo’s survival against the cave troll more important and meaningful.
Next matter: The Great chamber of Thror. It very much reminded me of Moria, with the light coming in, and the halls being so high, that one could not see the ceiling. Corpses lying around also help the image. How should I be alike to Dwarrowdelf? How should it be different?
Another thing that got me wondering is the armor the 13 dwarves will be wearing towards the end of the movie. It is said they took armors from the walls of the Halls, and that “Royal indeed did Thorin look, clad in a coat of gold-plated rings, with a silver-hafted axe in a belt crusted with scarlet stones” Nice image, one that probably will inspire one of Arwen’s Daughter’s Did you ever notice… costume? threads way into 2011. J
As for narrative elements that have to be lloked into for the movie adaptation, I have a few:
It is noticeable that the narrator is less and less childish as the book moves forward, having fewer and fewer notes directed at the reader. This seems quite appropriate, and I hope the tone of the narrator is uniform to that of the last chapters throughout the whole movie.
Second and important change: the exploration of the Halls by the Company takes place (chronologically) after Smaug’s death, but comes a chapter before. Given what Peter did with the timelines of Two Towers and Return of the King, I am guessing these matters will be shown chronologically on screen, as opposed to following the book’s structure. I really hope so, since that would benefit the story telling, ridding us of unnecessary flashbacks. I don’t have anything against them, when they help tell the story, but I do not see a strong reason why to have Smaug’s death shown later.
A concern I could not voice elsewhere: the spider scene lasts only 13 pages out of 276… it is indeed and important and good one, but Guillermo has said it is one of his favorite ones. How long do you think he will stretch it? Will he give it too much importance, as compared to that it actually has in the book?
And finally, a couple of interesting things: it is said Smaug’s bones were visible many years following his death, as well as Lake Town’s ruins upon which they rested. It would be fun to see that image at least as concept art, and maybe as a scene in the sprequel. J
And when Bilbo tells the dwarves about Smaug’s weak spot, they say they start talking about stories of dragon-slaying… I wonder if that could be a way of including a tiny reference to Túrin Turambar.
So there you go, several things that came to mind when reading The Hobbit and thinking of its upcoming adaptation. Sorry for the length of the post, I thought it was pointless to post each of this individual random thoughts in its own thread.
Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
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ringers rock!
Ossiriand
May 19 2008, 2:53am
Post #2 of 38
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That brings me to the third matter itself: The Arkenstone. I was thinking it would help for I to be mentioned since Bag End, to make clear how much Thorin wanted it, and dramatize Bilbo’s actions even further.
...
It is noticeable that the narrator is less and less childish as the book moves forward, having fewer and fewer notes directed at the reader. I hope the tone of the narrator is uniform to that of the last chapters throughout the whole movie.
Ooooh the Arkenstone. [hides beneath umbrella] Cinematically, I see this as major cheese. It works in words, but visually nearly everything in this scene will be glowing -- rainbow colors as well? And during such an emotionally charged moment? I'd like to see Goldie's rendition come to life here. It would be a total deviation, but perhaps GDT will be more selective about the entire roy g biv spectrum.
You say you hope the narrator remains uniform? How do you mean? diminishing as the story progresses or chiming in at the same intervals?
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sador
Gondolin
May 19 2008, 6:47am
Post #3 of 38
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Dori, Gloin, and Bombur of course
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Dori is the strongest, most steadfast and 'a decent fellow'.
Gloin is the grumbler, and the one who appreciated Bilbo the least (or was the most vocal about it) - I'm sure that's the reason Tolkien picked him up for Gimli's father.
Apart of them - well, Oin is of royal blood. I guess he was Balin's second-in-command, as the book of Mazarbul mentions his being sent to seek for the upper armouries, and then to Hollin gate (where the Watcher took him).
Ori is known for being a scribe - so he might be shown taking notes in his diary (do dwarves keep those?), and even peeping to old maps like Bilbo.
Someone suggested here the possibility that Bifur and Nori were female. I doubt that it's a great idea.
But I agree that Bofur is totally useless, except for getting up to 13 . No' I'm joking; as Bombur's brother, he serves as a counterfoil to him - especially in the camp down the Lonely Mountain.
But yes, it is a challange. A few months ago, somebody started a discussion of Bakshi's film, and many confessed to being unable to distinguish Pippin from Merry. Twelve dwarves (not counting Thorin) will be even harder.
On a different point you've raised - in 'A Thief in the Night', Bilbo claims to be familiar with Bard. That might be a kind of an introduction - have him bring a confined Bilbo some leftovers from the parties, tell him about Dale and being thagged very buch. It might even build up his grim-but-true character.
"We are all friends here. Or should be" - Gandalf
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Earl
Forum Admin
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May 19 2008, 10:00am
Post #4 of 38
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A rather though provoking topic overall, especially about the 13 dwarves
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But let me begin by saying that I shudder to even think of there being less than 13 dwarves in The Hobbit. For one, it defeats the whole purpose of having Bilbo be their lucky number. For another, I don't think that screentime will be a problem over the course of approximately 3 hours. In the sense that we don't have to get to know all 13 dwarves from the get go. It should be sufficient to have 13 of them come traipsing into Bag End, and then developed (maybe in pairs) over the course of the film. There's many places when Tolkien says "the dwarves" replied/said/did something/grumbled, and these moments could be exploited as character development moments for the dwarves.
I've always been intrigued about this aspect of the film - how would they manage to get us familiar with 13 dwarves? I think this is one that could make or break the movie. Because for all the spectacle they might conjure with Beorn, Spiders, Smaug and the Battle, the "protagonist" in my opinion is not one person but 13. It is what will differentiate this movie and enable the filmmakers to have the layers of intricacy that it has. It's not just about Bilbo, or Thorin, or Smaug. Its a journey movie, and we're essentially watching the fortunes of 13 + 1 people on this Quest.
I think the filmmakers know this and that is why the first scanty news we heard was that WETA was conceptualizing the look of the dwarves. I silently thought that was the perfect place to begin pre-production at. With all the fantastic elements that can be envisioned in a film, one tends to overlook the more humane aspect of empathizing with dwarves.
Just like we can look at the silhouette of the Nine Companions and know exactly who is whom, I think the biggest victory of this film will be to replicate that effort with 13 dwarves, 1 hobbit, and 1 wizard.
Crows and Gibbets! What is The House Of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll around on the floor with their dogs! You are but a lesser son of greater Sires.
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Empedocles
Ossiriand
May 19 2008, 1:50pm
Post #5 of 38
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I'm guessing the 13 dwarves problem must be a nightmare right now. But you're right, the most important thing will be the art design and how they manage to conceptualize 13 different characters that must look similar but at the same different so we can tell them apart. I hope they don't go with blue/green/yellow beards and colorful hoods because that will make matters worse. The casting will be as important as the design but the more I think about it, the more complex it seems. Regarding if they should be 13 or not, I haven't made my mind yet. I totally understand if they go with less dwarves but I believe they should keep 13 and work as hard as possible to make that work. Thorin, Dwalin, Balin, Kili, Fili, Gloin and Bombur should be the ones getting more screen time but I don't see a way out of the problem of the audience being confused by 13 different similar-looking dwarves. I was trying to think of a movie with so many characters to see if it was doable but I couldn't remember any. In The Backbone Devil, I remember there are like 8 or 10 kids but you only get to "identify" 4 or 5, so there's no paralell there. I'm guessing that what they'll do is to set up individual conversations between each dwarf and Gandalf or Bilbo and relegate some of the most unimportant dwarves to decorative purposes, which would be heavily criticized but totally understandable.
The Turin Turambar reference, really great idea!!!!
Please, give us back Glorfindel!!!
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Empedocles
Ossiriand
May 19 2008, 1:54pm
Post #6 of 38
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Has anyone asked about this in the "Unexpected Party" chat thing?
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Ah, also, NO FEMALE DWARVES, PLEASE, it's just ridiculous.
Please, give us back Glorfindel!!!
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Earl
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May 19 2008, 2:20pm
Post #7 of 38
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I've always been partial to Dwarves moreso than Elves, but I think that's just because we see so little of Dwarves in LOTR. There's something beautiful and intricate about their attire, their armour, their beards, their make-up, and their expression s which truly distinguishes Tolkien's Dwarves from those in "other" fantasy tales.
Which is why, although I'm not into the card games, I got excited each time Decipher came out with a Dwarf-card. I'd saved these on my drive years ago and this seemed an opportune moment to delve for them 
Here are the Dwarves in LOTR, some that we see in the movie, and some that were, I suppose, just made up for the game. Their names are made up anyway, but just to test my theory of the 13 Dwarves, I tried to see if I could guess their names just by looking at them after all these years - and I'm ecstatic since I got them all right except for "Sindri", whose name I guessed as "Sindir"  but I suppose that's because of the Elf Lindir who's present at the Council of Elrond in the book.
Anyway, here they are...
Dain Ironfoot
Durin III
A random Dwarf Guard
Farin
Fror (no offense to the model, but doesn't this Dwarf look a little feminine?)
Gloin
 
Grimir
 
Linnar
Sindri
Thrarin
Uri
The Decipher game named the Seven Dwarf-lords Durin, Sindri, Linnar, Var, Uri, Thulin and Vigdis. I've never been able to find Var, Thulin and Vigdis, and if anyone has them, I'd be grateful if you could send their pics across to me.
Crows and Gibbets! What is The House Of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll around on the floor with their dogs! You are but a lesser son of greater Sires.
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Earl
Forum Admin
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May 19 2008, 3:43pm
Post #8 of 38
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... that all those images might make the pageload take forever.
Mods, if you think it's going to be a problem, please replace the images with a link to http://s192.photobucket.com/albums/z71/earlic/
Sorry about that 
Crows and Gibbets! What is The House Of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll around on the floor with their dogs! You are but a lesser son of greater Sires.
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Magpie
Elvenhome
May 19 2008, 4:11pm
Post #9 of 38
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I've checked Decipher's Card Lists and they're not in there. I don't think these were ever cards. I'm not sure where you got the names but when I google, I only get two hits: Wikipedia and and a forum post that identifies the names as coming from Decipher's LOTR RPG. This game is a table top D&D type game. So, I think the names were implemented in the Decipher LOTR universe, and utilized in the RPG game, but not all were made into cards for the CCG.
magpie avatar gallery ~ soundtrack website
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Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
May 19 2008, 5:05pm
Post #10 of 38
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But only develop 4 or 5. That's where I believe Balin's develpoment would be nice, taking into consideration his relationship with Bilbo and his tomb's appearance in Fellowship.
As all of you have said it will be difficult to make them all distinguishable, since it is most likely (let's hope so) that their beards won't be blue or things like that. The hoods are a nice element for long distance recognition, but I believe they can make them different enough.
Gimli's closest relatives, mostly Glóin can be red-haired, the oldest dwarves white-haired, Thorin grey-haired, others black bearded and the youngest, Fili and Kili with Dark brown hair. That's only the hair matter, then there's body build, armor, heraldry, weapons, relationships, the way in which they comb their beards, height... there are many elements that can be exploited to make dwarves different, although I believe that will be for the same sake they did all the paintings in Rivendell and the tapestries in Meduseld: visual richness and realism. Most dwarves will most likely have the role of walking and looking surprised.
Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
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Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
May 19 2008, 5:08pm
Post #11 of 38
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On a different point you've raised - in 'A Thief in the Night', Bilbo claims to be familiar with Bard. That might be a kind of an introduction - have him bring a confined Bilbo some leftovers from the parties, tell him about Dale and being thagged very buch. It might even build up his grim-but-true character.
I haven't reached that chapter, but that would be perfect. I mad eup the Thorin thing because I had nothing else on which to build, but if Bilbo knows him, we could change the introduction to interaction with Bilbo, which would have a lot of sense, since Bilbo brings the Arkenstone later to him and Gandalf. Nice one there!
Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
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Empedocles
Ossiriand
May 19 2008, 5:35pm
Post #12 of 38
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Maybe they can do both, having Bilbo to meet Bard first, then a conversation between Thorin and Bard, a little bit of political conflict between Bard and the Master of Lake Town regarding the dwarves' arrival, and maybe they can also make Bard the guide of the company until they reach the Lonely Mountain. That'll help to establish his character a little bit more.
Please, give us back Glorfindel!!!
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
May 19 2008, 6:46pm
Post #14 of 38
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It'd be like cutting the Fellowship down to 7!!!! *spasm*
 
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
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Rosie-with-the-ribbons
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May 20 2008, 6:28pm
Post #15 of 38
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They must show 13 dwarves. They don't need to make all the characters very explicit, just the main characters.
It won't be that hard, the dwarves have various coloured hoods and beards. They just have to introduce them when they gather at Bilbo's. The main characters you will get to know during the story, and some will remain, just named and not much more.
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
May 21 2008, 11:58am
Post #16 of 38
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That's part of the comedy of it, and a reflection of their race. They prefer to travel in packs whenever possible, it seems ;) A baker's-dozen, a seedcake (Bilbo) and a bear claw (Gandalf) ;)
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
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Mirabella_Bunce
Ossiriand
May 21 2008, 2:35pm
Post #17 of 38
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In some ways I hope they keep all 13 Dwarves, just to be "true to the story," but I can see problems with it as well. From non-book-fans and illiterate movie critics we might hear a lot of "what the heck are all those other Dwarves there for, except to walk around and look surprised?" (lol thanks Gramma!)
But if anybody can find a way to make all 13 Dwarves have unique and memorable personalities and meaningful roles, it will be the team that's working on the movie now. I mean, even Tolkien couldn't do it. Seriously. Though I can rattle off all their names in much the same way that I can recite the names of Santa's reindeer, only 4 or 5 of the Dwarves stick in my mind, even after reading the book once a year since I was a pre-teen (and I'm not going to tell you how long ago that was!) Some of the Dwarves didn't even have lines! And most that did have lines, only had them as "token lines" that could just as easily have been said by any of the other Dwarves. For movie purposes, most of the Dwarves, as written, could easily be played by extras.
Let's see: the Dwarves that "stick in my head" are... well, Thorin, of course! And Balin. Bombur, Fili and Kili. The rest of them all sort of muddle together in a swirl of different colored beards and hoods.
One Dwarf that definitely needs to be kept in is Gloin, because he is Gimli's father and so we need him for the linking effect.
The rest, well, as I said, if anyone can make them come alive, it's the GDT/PJ/Walsh/Boyens team.
If they DO reduce the number of Dwarves, I think Nine would be very meaningful and significant...
Someone made an interesting remark about some of the Dwarves having possibly been female. This is actually quite feasible since as a matter of fact it is often difficult for even Dwarves to tell one gender from another, as in Dwarf culture, one's gender is very personal information that is only shared with one's closest friends. So maybe they can make one or two of the Dwarves female just to have their characters more memorable. Perhaps they only reveal their gender to Bilbo somewhere along the line... :)
BTW: has anyone but me fully realized that there is absolutely not one single female anything in the ENTIRE book? Maybe some of Beorn's ponies - well definitely his bees - and maybe some of the spiders. But other than that, zilch. I think the only opportunities for female actors in this movie will be as extras in Laketown. Maybe for this reason alone they will be sure to cover the background Aragorn/Arwen story.
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merklynn
Menegroth
May 21 2008, 7:07pm
Post #18 of 38
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Yes, I agree that if Bard is to get more air time before his book introduction point, then it should be with Bilbo, rather than Thorin. Bilbo could probably not only relate better to Bard, but being mostly ignorant of the world, it provides an excuse to have Bard explain about his people, his people's relationship with the dwarves, and his own tragic life, than with Thorin. Bilbo can then remember him better and have more reason to write well of him in his book "There and Back Again".
As for distinguishing the dwarves, I think that simply having distinctive outfits for each is the key. That way you are not only relying on hair style and beard differences, but you have different colored tunics too etc... etc... I think it is unrealistic for all 13 dwarves to be developed and given distinct personalities, this is something Tolkien barely managed himself. Only the main speaking role Dwarves should get any real attention, with Balin being the greatest priority after Thorin. I would also place emphasis on Gloin (being Gimli's father) and as was pointed out the two dwarves that die in the Battle of Five Armies, so as to make their loss greater for the audience.
The spider scene should be whatever GDT wants it to be, because I think this is one area that he excels beyond measure. I'm looking forward to his directing most especially for the Riddles in the Dark, the spiders, and the Smaug scenes.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
May 21 2008, 10:16pm
Post #19 of 38
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Because it gives the journey through Erebor more mystery and menace, as the audience along with the dwarves and hobbit fear that the dragon could return at any time. It's the same effect produced by the alternating books of LotR, on a smaller scale.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us May 19-25 for "Helm's Deep".
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merklynn
Menegroth
May 22 2008, 12:39am
Post #20 of 38
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Thorin's company impossible with prosthetics?
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I'm pretty sure it took John Rhys Davis maybe 4 or more hours to have his makeup put on each day. I'm also pretty sure I heard that WETA has improved their prosthetics techniques since LOTR through Narnia etc... however... even if they have got it down to a couple of hours, there will be a dozen actors all needing prosthetics and makeup similar to what John Rhys Davis went through each morning. Think about the army employed to do The Hobbit feet for the four Hobbits, but multiply that by three, and add that this is more complex (facial makeup). My question is, how then is it even remotely practical to actually do the full party of dwarves as Tolkien had written it? There are simply too many to make it practical without breaking the bank. So will this mean that out of practical reasons, Thorin's company will be cut down to just 6 or 7? I certainly hope not, but right now it seems like a bit of a movie making dilemma.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
May 22 2008, 3:22am
Post #21 of 38
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I just realized that my post "Why postpone Smaug's death?" is apparently the 100,000th made to these boards.
Do I get a prize?
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us May 19-25 for "Helm's Deep".
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Kelvarhin
Gondolin
May 22 2008, 3:38am
Post #22 of 38
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Congratulations NEB 
*hugs* Kelvarhin x
There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
May 22 2008, 4:16am
Post #23 of 38
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us May 19-25 for "Helm's Deep".
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Kelvarhin
Gondolin
May 22 2008, 4:19am
Post #24 of 38
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There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay
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sador
Gondolin
May 22 2008, 6:02am
Post #25 of 38
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As was the one you gave a.s. on the Reading Room.
If you distribute a few more of those - it might be worthwhile to open a site of these.
Do the winner have to 'wear' them now, i.e. add them to their signatures? Might be like high-ranking officers with their medals/
"I will help as I may" - Gimli
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Lovely!
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