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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 6 2022, 9:29am
Post #1 of 31
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Concerning Dark Lords and Who They Are
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This includes knowledge of everything up until Episode 6 and the promo material.
I think most Sauron theories have become too complicated and based on assumptions of what people would like to see and have in the series. Three assumptions that are often used as if they must be true in particular: 1) Song of Hithaeglir is a hoax planted by Sauron; 2) Annatar must be called that name from the beginning and be Sauron in disguise; 3) Once helping the Elves in Eregion he must already be scheming for Evil purposes.
I myself have had the craziest ideas and thoughts about theories (and shared them here, lol) to make my beliefs fit what I actually saw in the series. So I took a step back and thought about where we actually are in the series right now, what they have given us and where it would naturally lead to now. I applied the same logic to my assumptions back in July or August when my theory on Galadriel's Season One arc was actually part of that Vanity Fair video in which members of the cast commented on fan theories and Owain Arthur actually stopped reading mine because it "was too accurate" :D Not saying that I will be right again - but sometimes it helps to ignore what we think should be there and just use what we actually have and puzzle that together.
I think at the moment that it will be much more straight-forward than any surprise Annatar-reveal or Stranger-shock.
1. Halbrand will come with Galadriel to Eregion to get help / inform the Elves of what has happened in the South.
2. Halbrand thinks that what has happened is further proof that ME needs "healing" and Adar be stopped.
3. Through Galadriel he gets to know Celebrimbor... and thinks he can help with the forge.
4. Halbrand will reveal himself as the formerly fallen Maia who will now try to help heal ME, as he saw how Morgoth's attempt of "order" failed in the end and destroyed half of ME. Because of the panic surrounding the dwindling at least Celebrimbor and a relevant group of Elves will agree to let him help despite his crimes and past - maybe we even get the Elves divided here into two factions. Or he will be basically a captive under watch - which would make sense, since they cannot just destroy him anyway, as his spirit will endure - they at least know what he is doing by keeping him in Eregion. Or he will be a captive first and Celebrimbor will start to work with him when his Mithril plans fail.
5. Halbrand's intentions are genuine at this point, though we might get hints that what he understands as "healing" might easily escalate and that his interest in real power is not dead (we already saw that as he couldn't say no to the throne of the Southlands).
6. The Mithril stuff won't work in the sense of bathing any Elf in Silmaril light but is helping to set up the forging of the Rings in Season 2.
7. The Lindon tree starting to rod is really only connected to the dwindling, not the rise of Sauron or at least not him directly poisoning anything. He has not been to Eregion or Lindon, yet. Celebrimbor (and Gil-galad) believing this might be saving them is one thing I guess we have to live with. They probably needed that urgency to explain why they (or at least Celebrimbor) would need and accept Halbrand's help even after they learn who he was.
8. Halbrand is our Annatar. Annatar may be a name later used in the series by the Elves to refer to Halbrand. But there is no big "here is my friend Annatar" reveal. He won't be the Great Deceiver right away.
9. Adar's story of "killing" Sauron is true.
Some questions that could be easily be explained within this theory:
1. How will Galadriel react to the Elves of Eregion taking her Arch-nemesis in? I think the show set her up facing her inner evil (that was only understood by Halbrand and Adar) as a reason why she won't fight it or simply has no energy left at this point for it (or/and not enough allies). She will be further broken by not having sensed Halbrand's identity and trusted in him instead. She may stay in Eregion for now to watch him (maybe even ordered to do so by Gil-galad who hopefully will be more in the less-trusting corner). If he does not help them right away but his held captive she might even not have that dilemma - as she also has no way of destroying him. Through Adar's story they know for sure they won't be able to stop him from coming back again.
2. How will Halbrand/Sauron relapse? Potentially when he wants to go more radical ways in "healing" ME and the Elves oppose it. Plus he may simply not be able to stay away from Power. We know that he has already butchered countless Orcs for that purpose. Distrust between him and the Elves grows and when Celebrimbor creates the Three without his involvement, he decides to go back to Mordor, takes down Adar, takes over and creates the One, convinced now that only he can rule the world and that the Elves must be destroyed, as they stand in the way of "perfect order" (I think that was Adar's quote, right?).
And some questions I do not really have answers to... their answers might be the key to making this a good twist, though:
1. Why did Sauron chose to return as Halbrand? One explanation may be that he did not chose this body but that he just clang to another human being and "accidently" ended up as Southlandish royality. I really wonder how they will explain this. Very thin ice.
2. Why was he on the raft? The raft and meeting Galadriel might be really just introduced as a "fate intervention". Galadriel has basically said this already. And he as well. In fact, his very first sentence in the show is "The tides of fate are flowing". Which is later repeated by Galadriel herself when Frodo offers her the Ring. One might then read the entire worm/thunderstorm/chance meeting thing as a bigger fight over the fate of Middle-earth and what will ultimately lead to salvation - bring these two together? Or separate them? Even fate/God seems conflicted about what option will - in the long run - benefit Arda more.
3. Why the sigil? If Sauron wanted to heal ME, why would he order all the Orcs to Mordor? Did he want to kill them there?
I will stop here. I do not claim that this is better or worse than any other theory. But I think it does flow more naturally than a lot of other ideas out of where we are right now in the story. By writing it down I realized that there are actually not as many plotholes in there as I first thought and why I long didn't believe in H=S... these are mainly created when you try to also include some of the assumptions I mentioned in the beginning. Once they do not apply, it really starts working. Plus, I realized by a lot of people who only read the books once and then watched the movies but were never deeply invested that I overestimated the percentage of people getting the hints towards H=S. I think for the general audience this will be a major surprise and not as obvious (since many people say that it cannot be true as it would be too obvious).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Junesong
Rohan
Oct 6 2022, 11:38am
Post #2 of 31
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I think you're totally right that the show is setting up different expectations. I'm not sure how different or if they'll be THAT different, but I think you're right that us book folk shouldn't be so sure how things will go. I think our expectations - as you've said - are clouding our vision and our predictions.
I think there's merit to the idea of Halbrand as Sauron. I've actually suspected him since the first time we met him (I also still think that the Sauron reveal will include showing us that Sauron has appeared as a few characters so far, including the obstinate elf arguing with Galadriel in the first episode.) My theory has always been that Sauron is shadowing Galadriel because he knows she's searching for him, and he's been slowling and subtlely (not so subtley) poisoning her mind throughout the season. This should lead up to a reveal that feels personal to Galadriel.
My guess is that if Halbrand is Sauron then it's not his only form. The reveal I'd expect by seasons end is for us to be shown who Saruon is and that he's a shape-shifter, but not have the other characters know. Except maybe Galadriel who has suspicions that this drifter king is more than he says.
I'd still expect the Sauron form that goes to Eregion to be some kind of gift giving power-figure who can seduce the elves. I can't imagine Sauron trying to do that in the form of a human man who just claimed his throne. But hey, it's TV. Who know's what they'll do.
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Junesong
Rohan
Oct 6 2022, 11:42am
Post #3 of 31
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A Rings of Power ad on Instagram just reminded me that Sauron's main weapon (at least in what we've seen from the show so far) was a spear, and that's also Halbrand's main weapon so far.
Could be nothing...
"So which story do you prefer?"
"The one with the tiger. That's the better story."
"Thank you. And so it goes with God."
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Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell
Oct 6 2022, 3:34pm
Post #4 of 31
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He certainly is a main suspect
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though I am unsure who it is myself. I have switched around a lot. :D
But assuming once we know that the pieces will all fit together, how will these bits make sense?
1) The woman and child Adar mentions to Halbrand when at his mercy on the ground.
2) The amulet with device that is of kingly southerner line.
50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings
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Arannir
Valinor
Oct 6 2022, 3:39pm
Post #5 of 31
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Both are things that I also have troubles explaining.
Potentially, Sauron indeed did take the pouch of a dead man, as he claimed. But it would need an explanation in general of why and how he got that form of Halbrand.
The woman and child might be more simple... That he doesn't react to the people he lost but the fact that Adar really doesn't remember or recognize him (if he would that would have busted him in front of Galadriel that very minute, though).
I am not certain at all about the above.
But somehow I needed to write it down at some point :D
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Oct 6 2022, 3:40pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Oct 6 2022, 4:12pm
Post #6 of 31
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A thought on your point 7.....
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... about the blight on the tree in Lindon. I can see a strong possibility that Gil-galad is mis-reading that and it isn't related to the elves at all. I think they're presenting that as a more widespread corruption - remember the sick cow Arondir tried to milk in the first or second episode, which produced only a sort of black bile? Put the two together and it reminds me of the corruption which turned Greenwood the Great into Mirkwood - corruption which spread from Dol Guldur and was like a flag on the landscape saying 'Sauron is here'.
Seems to me there are a lot of echoes here to the scenes in The Hobbit film, with Radagast spotting the poisoning of the wood and finding the weapon, then Gandalf trying to alert the White Council to Sauron's return.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell
Oct 6 2022, 4:33pm
Post #7 of 31
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Yes that was my read of the black blight
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Part of the overall corruption eminating (from Mordor?).
But I thought by making it affect the tree it indirectly caused the diminishing of the elves. But this whole tree/elve/mithril thing is new and unpredictable. I kind of hope it's a fake.
50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Oct 6 2022, 8:02pm
Post #8 of 31
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Maybe when he took the pouch from the dead man
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he took the body as well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 6 2022, 8:46pm
Post #9 of 31
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Part of the overall corruption eminating (from Mordor?).
But I thought by making it affect the tree it indirectly caused the diminishing of the elves. But this whole tree/elve/mithril thing is new and unpredictable. I kind of hope it's a fake.
There's never been any indication, though, that Lindon was ever blighted in the same way as was Mirkwood. The closest to that was the disaster of the destruction of Beleriand, but that was the end of the First Age. However, someone felt the need tor this less-than-subtle visual clue that Middle-earth is out-of-balance?
Btw, I've been wondering where this singular elve (as opposed to elf) comes from? The only usage in English that I can find is this:
elve: a form of electrical discharge that is emitted upward from the top of a cumulonimbus cloud during a thunderstorm and that usually appears as a very short-lived reddish circle of light. (Merriam-Webster)
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 6 2022, 8:51pm)
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Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell
Oct 6 2022, 10:16pm
Post #10 of 31
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I probably just made it up (elve)
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I'm a bit of an anarchist when it comes to words.
50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings
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UtumnoSkirmish
The Shire
Oct 7 2022, 12:14am
Post #11 of 31
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…Halbrand’s reaction to “a child?” seems bizarre to say the least from the standpoint of him being Sauron. He’s upset when the woman is mentioned, but when Adar asks about a child he has tears in his eyes and even starts to tremble.
Surely, he could just be reacting to something else. In my opinion that isn’t good writing though, it’s subterfuge.
If it turns out to be Halbrand, so be it. Maybe they’ll surprise me and it will lead to a compelling character in the end.
I’ll just note that with The Stranger, things are exactly opposite. You have to think of excuses as to why he isn’t associated with evil.
Why the fire isn’t hot, when we were told that is a sign of extreme evil (by the way, Weyman dodged this humorously in an interview, claiming that maybe the fire just isn’t hot to Nori). Why his arm turned black when he used magic power. Why the landing site looks like the eye of Sauron, and was emphasized again after another use of magic. Why Waldreg claimed the meteor was a sign of Sauron’s return.
If the conclusion is reached that he’s associated with evil, in my view the possibility of a Balrog can be dismissed pretry quickly. Can the show really afford to spend one of the three major plots of the season on… how a Balrog came to Middle Earth who isn’t even supposed to be in the story yet?
Too disproportionate, too off the point. Based on the time they are spending I can only see Mithrandir (fan service) or Sauron not coming across as really odd in that respect.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Oct 7 2022, 9:49pm
Post #12 of 31
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might be explained by being severely bruised when hitting the ground that hard.
Could also explain why he was icing it afterward  That probably hurt like heck!
Not ignoring your other points (though restoration of the grove was a big plus for him not being evil), but the arm thing may simply be badly bruised from whacking the ground so hard. It looked incredibly painful, and like an impact injury  I know I winced when I saw it! And I didn't hit the ground, either.
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Happy reading everyone!
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Hopefull Harfoot
Rivendell
Oct 7 2022, 10:13pm
Post #13 of 31
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It was just an injury. He needs a staff to smack on the ground next time!
50th year anniversary since I first read The Lord of the Rings
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Felagund
Gondor
Oct 7 2022, 11:39pm
Post #14 of 31
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One of the many reasons why I don't want Halbrand to be Sauron in human form is that could detract from two decent plot points that Tolkien wrote that could serve in the TV adaptation very well:
- Galadriel was not taken in by Sauron's (Annatar's / Aulendil's) pitch. And neither was Gil-galad for that matter. However, in the show, to have Galadriel literally sailing, riding and walking around with Sauron for the best part of a season, totally fooled, breaks that completely.
- The narrative power of having all the other senior Eldar being suspicious of Annatar is that Celebrimbor's error is cast into stark relief; as is his realisation that he stuffed up. Having even Galadriel not realise that something's up with 'Halbrand' reduces the scope for this pathos.
I can however see why a TV adaptation might want to set up a big betrayal moment. If they do go for it, I hope it will be explicable, in-universe. As in, why would Sauron want to do this? Why would he want to drift around on a raft, hoping to get to Númenor and/or meet Galadriel at sea, then risk indefinite incarceration, battlefield injury or even death etc.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 7 2022, 11:55pm
Post #15 of 31
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I can however see why a TV adaptation might want to set up a big betrayal moment. If they do go for it, I hope it will be explicable, in-universe. As in, why would Sauron want to do this? Why would he want to drift around on a raft, hoping to get to Númenor and/or meet Galadriel at sea, then risk indefinite incarceration, battlefield injury or even death etc.
Isn't Sauron at least somewhat omnipotent or omniscient? Maybe use a palantír? So can't he just be an opportunist, see Galadriel's titanically stupid jump from a ship thousands of miles from any shore, and *manifest* the raft and himself to "save" Galadriel? That makes it completely explicable and not a random event at all.
In any case, if he turns out to be the totally predictable Sauron, I'm sure there will be a lot of people who thought that wouldn't be a good idea suddenly find that the tools of cognitive dissonance are very soothing to the soul and instantly like it once it's true.
indefinite incarceration
How does one incarcerate an all-powerful spirit? It's meaningless.
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Oct 8 2022, 12:01am)
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Oct 8 2022, 5:32am
Post #16 of 31
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Isn't Sauron at least somewhat omnipotent or omniscient?
No. God (Eru) is omnipotent and omniscient; Sauron isn't even the Devil.
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Eldy
Tol Eressea
Oct 8 2022, 5:47am
Post #17 of 31
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Galadriel was not taken in by Sauron's (Annatar's / Aulendil's) pitch. And neither was Gil-galad for that matter. However, in the show, to have Galadriel literally sailing, riding and walking around with Sauron for the best part of a season, totally fooled, breaks that completely.
Honestly, this would be in keeping with ROP's characterization of Galadriel. After her one shining moment of taking down a troll in the premiere, Galadriel has spent most of the rest of the season failing horribly at things. Her few remaining followers mutinied against her, she was effectively banished from her home kingdom, she pulled what should by all rights have been a suicidal stunt by jumping off the ship with no plan, she nearly got eaten by a sea monster, she would've died of exposure or thirst except for being saved by Elendil, she blundered around in Númenor and failed to make any headway in winning support for her cause until Halbrand explained extremely basically principles of interpersonal behavior to her, but in the end the Númenórean expeditionary force was only created because of Míriel's inexplicable decision to stake her credibility on Galadriel's claims without bothering to confirm that Halbrand wanted to be king. (If Míriel had talked to Halbrand directly, Galadriel's eleventh hour appeals wouldn't have mattered.) Once in Middle-earth, Galadriel participated in a successful battle—up until Adar's Orodruin gambit turned it into a defeat—but is still being presented as an emotionally broken husk who threatens to commit genocide because she can't conceive of herself living a life of peace. She's pretty much the opposite of wise, insightful, or difficult to fool.
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 8 2022, 6:17am
Post #18 of 31
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I agree with others and you, that you have to let go of 50 years (in my case) perceptions of how we get there and just focus on what's in front of us.
I would also add this, a lot of the main characters are going to die before the end and it's notable that they are not invested in curved balls Gil Galad, Celebrimbor and Elendil seem to be evolving along a straight line. Durin senior feels like that.
Elrond, Galadriel and Durin Owain (ably supported by Disa) on the other hand are moving and constantly surprising.
Halbrand, Theo and Isildur are pushing through arcs. I sense Theo has a five-season story.
The Stranger and the mystics are just that a mystery.
As for Halbrand the answer I think lies with Galadriel, she has been severely deconstructed for this show. The more I think about it the interpersonal potential between Halbrand and Galadriel leading down to a return to evil on the latters part, is substantial. She may reject him as she rejected the ring thousands of years later.
He needs her to stay on the straight and narrow, if she rejects him for any reason, its game on for Sauron.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Felagund
Gondor
Oct 9 2022, 11:12am
Post #20 of 31
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I did laugh out loud when I read through your list of all the ways TV Galadriel was the least wise sentient in Middle-earth! I'm now more convinced than ever that the showrunners can get away with having Galadriel literally walk right past someone wearing a 'My other name is Sauron' t-short on :)
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Felagund
Gondor
Oct 9 2022, 11:16am
Post #21 of 31
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How does one incarcerate an all-powerful spirit? It's meaningless.
Melkor got himself locked up pretty good. Granted, the cops and prison service at the time were a bit more force majeure!
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Rostron2
Gondor
Oct 9 2022, 5:24pm
Post #22 of 31
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8. Halbrand is our Annatar. Annatar may be a name later used in the series by the Elves to refer to Halbrand. But there is no big "here is my friend Annatar" reveal. He won't be the Great Deceiver right away.
9. Adar's story of "killing" Sauron is true.
Good thoughts in your entire reply. Sauron is/was a shapeshifter. He could easily move between Halbrand and another persona once we get to the great betrayal part of this series.
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Oct 9 2022, 5:50pm
Post #23 of 31
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How does one incarcerate an all-powerful spirit? It's meaningless. Melkor got himself locked up pretty good. Granted, the cops and prison service at the time were a bit more force majeure!
Yeah, I'm talking about getting locked up by simple townsfolk and you bring in world-smashers.
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Felagund
Gondor
Oct 9 2022, 7:27pm
Post #24 of 31
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I'm saving my sighs for now, as I hold a perhaps vain hope that the Halbrand arc is a red herring and maybe just an extended TV backstory for one of the Ringwraiths or even the Witch-king himself. And in parallel, what we do get is Elrond heading back to Ost-in-Edhil, being greeted by Celebrimbor who then introduces him to a very polite, hitherto unseen (no pun intended) Elf, a new character who has recently arrived to assist in 'the project', who knows much and is eager to share his knowledge. It's almost as if he were trained by Aulë himself, says Celebrimbor, chuckling to himself...
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Michelle Johnston
Gondor
Oct 10 2022, 3:44am
Post #25 of 31
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This is one of a number of times when I 'clock' something whilst watching and then forget about it.
The choice of Pelagir makes sense as a physical location and without doing a lot of back reading if memory serves it's a refuge of the faithful at some point in history.
It also keeps the action in the South related because Ar Pharazon should come ashore at Umbar.
It would, given Miriel's comments, be the place she would berth at on her return.
But you are right if Halbrand is the King of the Southlanders it would be where he could break his oath to Isildur.
On the Halbrand is Sauron I share Dormouse's view his grounded portrayal does not feel like that kind of deception at all. I also think Charlie Vickers gave probably his weakest performance at the end of the episode. It felt like he was watching everyone else rehearse the scene and wondered how to play it (maybe that would be how a very nuanced Sauron would be but that leads to the point I have just made, the Sauron we know from the professor's writings has absolutely no track record for that kind of deception. Deception yes but not like that).
BUT his wound does get him to just the place Sauron needs to be whislt Gil Galad is giving Galadriel a dressing down on jumping ship which is where all the tension will be .
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Oct 10 2022, 3:50am)
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