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AshNazg
Hithlum
Sep 10 2022, 1:35pm
Post #26 of 49
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He arrived on a flaming meteor, he can control the fire, he has wings of shadow and keeps doing that roaring thing he did in FotR.
As the Harfoots head West, the Stranger will get to the Misty Mountains when Durin is preparing for battle, The Stranger will become a Balrog in this fight, Durin will trap him in some kind of sleep in the deepest part of Khazad Dum, and probably perish doing so.
New Durin will become determined to dig deeper to find old Durin's body (perhaps hoping he's still alive) and in Third Age will accidentally re-awaken the Balrog.
Halbrand is Sauron
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 10 2022, 2:16pm
Post #27 of 49
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Maybe it will be Sauron, in this show, who convinces Pharazon to seize the sceptre (robbing Pharazon of his own agency). I think he'll be one of the Nine. He'll turn out to regain his throne but lack the power to hold it against rebel factions. He'll take a ring to consolidate his rule and thus fall into Sauron's trap.
Oh, I hope not. Shadow of War was bad enough with its non-canon Nazgul.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
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Archestratie
Nargothrond
Sep 10 2022, 2:20pm
Post #28 of 49
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Maybe it will be Sauron, in this show, who convinces Pharazon to seize the sceptre (robbing Pharazon of his own agency). I think he'll be one of the Nine. He'll turn out to regain his throne but lack the power to hold it against rebel factions. He'll take a ring to consolidate his rule and thus fall into Sauron's trap. Oh, I hope not. Shadow of War was bad enough with its non-canon Nazgul.
Most of the Nazgul were never named nor described. So why not?
My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf
The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 10 2022, 2:34pm
Post #29 of 49
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Most of the Nazgul were never named nor described. So why not?
We know Ar-Pharazôn's fate. He along with the rest of his fleet are killed when he sets foot in the Undying Lands. He does not pass GO and does not get to become Undead. That would be stupid (and impossible within the legendarium; the Nazgul arose before he would even have been born).
On the other hand, in Rings of Power Pharazôn is alive at the same time that the Rings are crafted, so who the heck knows? I would not put it past Payne and McKay to have Sauron gift him a Ring.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 10 2022, 2:35pm)
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Hopefull Harfoot
Ossiriand
Sep 10 2022, 3:32pm
Post #30 of 49
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On Halbrand, one thing I now remember
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Is in the scene in the Southlanders pub when the young man accosts Arondir he says something like 'One day when our king comes back he will pry us out from under your pointy boots'.
We know already the southlanders had sided with Melkor and Halbrand says his people did. So Halbrand the king in self exile is the logical missing Southlander king.
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Archestratie
Nargothrond
Sep 10 2022, 4:24pm
Post #31 of 49
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Most of the Nazgul were never named nor described. So why not? We know Ar-Pharazôn's fate. He along with the rest of his fleet are killed when he sets foot in the Undying Lands. He does not pass GO and does not get to become Undead. That would be stupid (and impossible within the legendarium; the Nazgul arose before he would even have been born). On the other hand, in Rings of Power Pharazôn is alive at the same time that the Rings are crafted, so who the heck knows? I would not put it past Payne and McKay to have Sauron gift him a Ring.
Ok. But I was talking about Halbrand, not Pharazon.
My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf
The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Sep 10 2022, 7:41pm
Post #32 of 49
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Yeah, his unusual and hardly subtly signalled interest in forging seemed to confirm that he was Sauron and that there wasn't going to be much of an 'mystery' there after all. But, you're right, the reveal of his Aragorn/Bard style lost lineage has to all but rule that out. Probably. One of the Nine seems to fit.
Others find it obvious that Halbrand is Sauron. In this age of subverting expectations, writers have free license to do as they wish for the purpose, regardless of the setup. They think they're clever when they don't give the audience what they want, then revel and defend in the disappointment. Cynical? Yes.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
Sep 10 2022, 7:57pm
Post #33 of 49
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and it fits with Halbrand's contrary nature.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 10 2022, 8:44pm
Post #34 of 49
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Ok. But I was talking about Halbrand, not Pharazon.
Um, if you backtrack the conversation you'll see that we really were discussing Ar-Pharazon. But, ignoring that, Halbrand could well end up as one of the Nazgul; possibly he could even be the Witch-king (probably not Khamul the Easterling; I'm assuming that Khamul was the name of the Black Easterling in life). We're also close enough to the end of the Second Age that he could end up being the King of the Dead whose people betrayed Elendil.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Sep 10 2022, 9:16pm
Post #35 of 49
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Don't believe Amazon has any rights to use the Blue Wizards, or their names (which aren't mentioned in the LotR books at all). The only mention of there even being wizards other than Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast is Saruman's line about "the rods of the five wizards".
And I could be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that part of Amazon's deal with the Tolkien Estate was that they couldn't outright contradict anything that is in the material they have rights to. So wouldn't having Gandalf arrive in the Second Age contradict Appendix B, where it says that the Istari didn't appear in Middle-earth until about 1000 years had passed in the Third Age?
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Eldy
Dor-Lomin
Sep 10 2022, 9:23pm
Post #36 of 49
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And I could be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that part of Amazon's deal with the Tolkien Estate was that they couldn't outright contradict anything that is in the material they have rights to.
Tom Shippey made this claim* in an interview several years ago, but I think it was pretty thoroughly debunked even before the show's premiere, on the basis of things learned from trailers and media previews. (I'd argue making Celebrimbor and Isildur contemporaries is a far greater change than moving Gandalf's arrival in Middle-earth, but that's beside the point.) If this policy does nominally exist, it evidently has such massive loopholes in its definition of "contradiction" as to be functionally meaningless.
* Actually, a lot of people (myself included) read Shippey's statement to mean that Amazon couldn't contradict anything in the material they lack the rights to, either, but that makes even less sense.
(This post was edited by Eldy on Sep 10 2022, 9:24pm)
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Sep 10 2022, 9:48pm
Post #37 of 49
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I'd argue making Celebrimbor and Isildur contemporaries is a far greater change than moving Gandalf's arrival in Middle-earth, but that's beside the point. Yes and also Galadriel not being yet married to Celeborn at this point, and Barad-dur not being completed yet. So it would seem the "contradiction" thing was not a term set out by the Tolkien Estate. Thanks for the info.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 11 2022, 1:11am
Post #38 of 49
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Don't believe Amazon has any rights to use the Blue Wizards, or their names (which aren't mentioned in the LotR books at all). The only mention of there even being wizards other than Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast is Saruman's line about "the rods of the five wizards".
And I could be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that part of Amazon's deal with the Tolkien Estate was that they couldn't outright contradict anything that is in the material they have rights to. So wouldn't having Gandalf arrive in the Second Age contradict Appendix B, where it says that the Istari didn't appear in Middle-earth until about 1000 years had passed in the Third Age?
Amazon might have gotten special permission to use the Blue Wizards in the show. Or they might have invented an entirely new Maiar character(s). As to your second question, contradictions seem to abound.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
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DGHCaretaker
Nargothrond
Sep 11 2022, 1:37am
Post #39 of 49
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Amazon might have gotten special permission to use the Blue Wizards in the show.
If the rights are anything like Jackson's were, you get lines like this:
Gandalf: "There are five of us. The greatest of our order is Saruman, The White. Then there are the two blue wizards. Do you know, I've quite forgotten their names."
(This post was edited by DGHCaretaker on Sep 11 2022, 1:38am)
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cats16
Gondolin
Sep 11 2022, 3:26am
Post #40 of 49
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...from someone who hasn't commented yet on the show, partially because we're still in the top of the 1st inning, with 47+ hours more to come. Also because I traveled this week and had nasty jetlag.
On Halbrand:
I noted some very specific, interesting performance choices from Charlie Vickers this past week. During the scenes with the Guild men of Númenor, it seemed as if the character had two separate almost robot-like moments where he was internally recalibrating his approach on how to deal with these men. The first comes when his initial intimidation attempt doesn't work, and he opts for flattery instead. Note how he suddenly puts on a charming face, has numerous coins to spend, and charms his way into their good graces almost too easily. I believe there's even a quiet musical cue that's mysterious and gave me the feeling of how they would portray a character like Sauron in disguise. The shot of him holding the coins reminded me of No Face in Spirited Away, hiding behind a mask and producing amazing amounts of gold out out of thin air. The second moment is later, when the flattery wears off and he's confronted over the stolen pin. Again, he has a moment of what I'd call recalibration before pulverizing the men - he had tried to avoid this outcome, but suddenly he takes on incredible strength and breaks the arm of one man, which felt a little too superhuman to me. I believe there may have been a quiet musical cue here too along the same lines as before, in the seconds before he chooses to pulverize the group.
This isn't to say I'm sold on the idea this is Sauron in disguise. But as a reader of the film (show) we're watching, there's nothing in the show that's exactly dissuading this kind of reading, either. Though I did have a similar thought as O-S about it being quite early to have Sauron in Númenor already, though it seems we can't rely on the chain of events too closely in the original text(s) and generally have to accept that the only reliable things that will happen are a) Númenor's Downfall and b) a Last Alliance against Sauron. That's really all that seems a given at this point.
On The Stranger:
I don't have too much to say here yet. One thing I'll note, from having captions turned on, is that in episode 2 (I think), The Stranger says something like "Mana" and "uwe" to Nori. Manwe comes to mind here, or at least some kind of interpretation of the root mána- meaning something like "blessed" or "blessing" in Quenya. Is this a red herring? Is he really evil? Or does Occam's Razor come in to say that it's obviously Gandalf, you fools at TORn. So far everything with Halbrand and The Stranger feel like obvious red herrings, which become increasingly difficult to deal with the longer they last.
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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Hopefull Harfoot
Ossiriand
Sep 11 2022, 4:27pm
Post #41 of 49
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Yes, I noticed those moments too, where Halbrand sort of spaces out a moment
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as if thinking and then launching into a course of action
It suggests a very calculating nature. In the scene where he saved Galadriel's life on the raft, he took quite a long time before he decided to do so. His sense of what is good or bad in very flexible at this point and reflects his backround as one of the so called 'evil peoples' that served Melkor in the 1st age. And of a royal line no less (probably) of the Southlanders.
But he also seems conflicted. I sense a genuine growing fondness for Galadriel and yearning to make a new start away from the troubled past. But the past will not let him go I think and I see room for resentment growing as he see's the difference in what th Elves and Numenoreans have and what his people do.
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TFP
Menegroth
Sep 11 2022, 9:21pm
Post #42 of 49
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On reflection I'm back onto the idea of H being Sauron
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l think they're probably going to do an 'is he, isn't he' tease for quite a long time. This particular, "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost" puzzle could potentially span multiple seasons?
I think at this stage the careful viewer is meant to think that H definitely could be Sauron, no more no less. Expect more clues and ultimately I suppose a big reveal to unravel at a very leisurely pace.
(This post was edited by TFP on Sep 11 2022, 9:23pm)
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Annael
Elvenhome
Sep 13 2022, 11:54pm
Post #43 of 49
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I'm liking the King of the Dead theory //
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I am a dreamer of words, of written words.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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UtumnoSkirmish
Lindon
Sep 18 2022, 7:16pm
Post #44 of 49
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Halbrand as Sauron: unworkable?
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When considering the identity of Sauron I've been thinking not only about what we've seen so far, but "what has to happen" for the story to unfold.
Sauron will eventually have to aid the Elves of Eregion in crafting the rings, and in order to do that, he will first have to deceive them. He'll have to convince them not only that he is innately good and means them well, but that he has tremendous, groundbreaking "scientific" knowledge.
Halbrand can't pull this off. His story is that he's a man from the south whose home was overrun by orcs. Eregion would never accept that a mortal man is such a genius that he's ready to instruct Feanor's grandson.
if Halbrand is Sauron (and they also don't want to butcher the story beyond all recognition), then he's just hanging out in Numenor as a mortal man for time being. In this case, the show will tip its hand when the transformation happens, and Halbrand will simply drop off.
Time will tell. I hope they stay as true as possible to Tolkien's vision.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Sep 18 2022, 7:26pm
Post #45 of 49
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If they are at all going to stay true to the story as told in The Lord of the RIngs I see no way that could be done with Halbrand as Sauron. That would be terribly disappointing.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Narvi
Menegroth
Sep 18 2022, 8:34pm
Post #46 of 49
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We know that Sauron appears to the elves as a fellow elf. We know he shapeshifts in order to do this. What precludes Sauron from applying the same technique in surveying Galadriel and Numenor from up close and manipulating them to clear his elven rival from Beforedor?
There is indication that Sauron has already wooed the elves as Annatar: both Celebrimbor and Gil-galad exhibit suspicious behavior, with the former anxious about a mysterious deadline to the point of duplicity and the latter betraying knowledge of Celebrimbor’s scheme as well as discovering evidence of Sauron’s corruption in Lindon itself.
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UtumnoSkirmish
Lindon
Sep 19 2022, 12:31am
Post #47 of 49
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I didn't know that he was considered to be an elf
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Ah, ok. My understanding was always that he posed as being sent by the Valar and never denied his essential nature. This is based mostly on Unfinished Tales .
If the accepted version is that he presented as an elf then of course that changes matters. I do prefer the emissary of Aule route since it's more audacious. He simply tells them the truth, mixed with one big lie.
Either way yes, Halbrand could be Sauron on some sort of scouting mission. That still has other problems (him saving Galadriel, Galadriel sensing nothing) but it is possible.
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Crunchable Birdses
Nargothrond
Sep 19 2022, 2:36pm
Post #48 of 49
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The Disa theory doesn't pass the smell test.
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It's too random, wacky and open to memetastic online ridicule.
Plus, she has kids with Durin. That would drive a bit of a coach and horses through the canon, I think it's fair to say.
(Plus - you don't make the ONE black dwarf secretly the big Satan character).
As I say, fails the smell test.
* crunch *
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Ereinion Nénharma
Menegroth
Sep 23 2022, 9:50am
Post #49 of 49
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Well, episode 5 has gotten me even more in the dark about the identity of both the Stranger and the question who Sauron is. They are clearly hinting at the Stranger to be Sauron, but I do not buy it.
They are hinting at Adar not being Sauron, but on the other hand, Adar does not deny being Sauron.
I do not believe Halbrand is Sauron.
If I had to guess... we have not seen Sauron yet. And if we did see him, he is Adar.
The Stranger, well... I still belief he is Gandalf or even more, Saruman.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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