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Arannir
Valinor
Aug 17 2022, 3:13pm
Post #1 of 38
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Southlands confirmed to be Pre-Mordor
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https://youtu.be/2nV7bv2nQls
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Narvi
Lorien
Aug 17 2022, 3:18pm
Post #2 of 38
(889 views)
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I should have posted my last message here rather than on the thread below 
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Narvi
Lorien
Aug 17 2022, 3:20pm
Post #3 of 38
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The position of the village of Tir-harad corresponds with the location of the Tower of Cirith Ungol...
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Arannir
Valinor
Aug 17 2022, 3:23pm
Post #4 of 38
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"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 17 2022, 3:29pm
Post #5 of 38
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The position of the village of Tir-harad corresponds with the location of the Tower of Cirith Ungol...
I checked. The pass of Cirith Ungol would be at least 60 to 70 miles to the north of the village. However, the map does place Tirharad in the south-west corner of the plain of Gorgoroth. There does seem to be another settlement to the north of Tirharad, as well as a village or maybe pass to the south.
Honestly, I thought that the Southlands would be west of Mordor but south of what would become Gondor (though possibly including Harondor and Khand).
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 17 2022, 3:41pm)
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Narvi
Lorien
Aug 17 2022, 3:45pm
Post #6 of 38
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Canon also suggests that Cirith Ungol was a Numenorean foundation. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the map doesn't perfectly reflect the established geography. The eastward spur of the Ephel Duath seems to have shifted slightly to accommodate the new settlement, and the poisoned river that once flowed through the pass of Cirith Ungol and out through the Morgul Vale has likewise shifted parallel to a new stream adjacent to the villages of the interior. Orodruin is also much further west than on Tolkien's maps.
EDIT: I think that the watchtower may actually correspond with the "Ostirith" further up the vale to the west of Tirharad.
(This post was edited by Narvi on Aug 17 2022, 3:48pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 17 2022, 3:48pm
Post #7 of 38
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Later maps have no corresponding river that has its source in the Ephel Duath (Mountains of Shadow). It might have been buried by a later eruption of Orodruin. Or perhaps it simply dried up.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 17 2022, 3:51pm)
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Narvi
Lorien
Aug 17 2022, 3:50pm
Post #8 of 38
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I think you're right about the eastern river
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But what about the Morgulduin?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 17 2022, 4:02pm
Post #9 of 38
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The Morgulduin doesn't seem to appear on this map (or maybe it does; it's hard to tell) but there is a different river a little ways south that is not on later maps.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
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Narvi
Lorien
Aug 17 2022, 4:05pm
Post #10 of 38
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What I'm trying to suggest is that the river that has been shifted south is the show's version of the Morgulduin. I don't think they've left enough room on the map for the future Minas Tirith-Osgiliath-Minas Morgul alignment. I could be wrong, of course! Perhaps the map will change from season to season, as that of Game of Thrones did.
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Stranger Wings
Rivendell
Aug 17 2022, 4:24pm
Post #11 of 38
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This also may affirm that the harfoots are in southern Mordor, as we saw a scene of them in the same field of grain that we see in the Southlands featurette (plus the falling meteor is very low in the sky when Arondir and Bronwyn see it, and of course it falls near where the harfoots are).
In which case, the possibility of The Stranger being a Blue Wizard just shot up...
“He went alone to look in Mirrormere.” - The Book of Mazarbul
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Narvi
Lorien
Aug 17 2022, 4:41pm
Post #12 of 38
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The association of humans with fields of grain makes it less likely that this is the same field. It's be hard to explain the presence of the moose-hunters in the vicinity of Tirharad when we don't see them ever again.
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Stranger Wings
Rivendell
Aug 17 2022, 4:51pm
Post #13 of 38
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A Mordor Moose bit my sister once
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The association of humans with fields of grain makes it less likely that this is the same field. It's be hard to explain the presence of the moose-hunters in the vicinity of Tirharad when we don't see them ever again.
There's a shot of the moosehunters overlooking a valley in one of the trailers, and it's clear that it's the same valley/ geographic landscape as the one the elven tower overlooks. So I'm almost certain it's Tir-Harad.
“He went alone to look in Mirrormere.” - The Book of Mazarbul
(This post was edited by Stranger Wings on Aug 17 2022, 4:51pm)
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The Dude
Rivendell
Aug 17 2022, 4:55pm
Post #14 of 38
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It looks like there are three place-names on the map: Tirharad, Osttirith (?, "fort of the guard"), and some place starting with H. All of them are situated in the valley at the southwestern edge of the Plateau of Gorgoroth, i.e., somewhat south of Cirith Ungol.
Why these lands would be called "The Southlands" is anybody's guess. If the elves came up with this name, they probably would have used it for the future lands of Gondor too, or really anything south of the Ered Nimrais and the Ered Lithui. As it stands, the name sounds too generic for such a mountainous region.
The old man is called "Waldreg", a name that sounds vaguely Germanic (Waldemar, Edwald, etc.), although the second component ("reg") does not make much sense to me. All in all the currently known "Southlander" names (Bronwyn, Theo, Waldreg) do not really follow a linguistic pattern.
Judging from the video, it seems that Tirharad, an apparently poor pre-modern village, has somewhat of the same degree of phenotypic variability as a 21st-century Western metropolis, which if taken seriously would mean that the inhabitants are all hardcore segregationists. Why not, in light of Boniadi's casting, hire predominately Iranian and MENA actors/extras to portray this particular group of "Southlanders", instead of going all "United Colors of Benetton" for the extras while, ironically, giving half of the speaking roles in the village to "NW European"-looking actors? One may assume that there would have been complaints then as well - the pitfalls of presentism - but at least it would not have looked like an American larping event.
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Stranger Wings
Rivendell
Aug 17 2022, 5:01pm
Post #15 of 38
(777 views)
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It looks like there are three place-names on the map: Tirharad, Osttirith (?, "fort of the guard"), and some place starting with H. All of them are situated in the valley at the southwestern edge of the Plateau of Gorgoroth, i.e., somewhat south of Cirith Ungol.
Why these lands would be called "The Southlands" is anybody's guess. If the elves came up with this name, they probably would have used it for the future lands of Gondor too, or really anything south of the Ered Nimrais and the Ered Lithui. As it stands, the name sounds too generic for such a mountainous region.
The old man is called "Waldreg", a name that sounds vaguely Germanic (Waldemar, Edwald, etc.), although the second component ("reg") does not make much sense to me. All in all the currently known "Southlander" names (Bronwyn, Theo, Waldreg) do not really follow a linguistic pattern.
Judging from the video, it seems that Tirharad, an apparently poor pre-modern village, has somewhat of the same degree of phenotypic variability as a 21st-century Western metropolis, which if taken seriously would mean that the inhabitants are all hardcore segregationists. Why not, in light of Boniadi's casting, hire predominately Iranian and MENA actors/extras to portray this particular group of "Southlanders", instead of going all "United Colors of Benetton" for the extras while, ironically, giving half of the speaking roles in the village to "NW European"-looking actors? One may assume that there would have been complaints then as well - the pitfalls of presentism - but at least it would not have looked like an American larping event.
...these are people from different parts of Middle Earth who supported Morgoth, and were resettled by the elves in Tir-Harad to be more easily watched over.
“He went alone to look in Mirrormere.” - The Book of Mazarbul
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Narvi
Lorien
Aug 17 2022, 5:16pm
Post #16 of 38
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Perhaps we're thinking of different scenes, but the only overlook-scene we've had from Tirharad has looked to be primarily cultivated plains and a river. There is no river in any of the shots with hobbits, which have lots of forests and hills (rather than mountains, which appear far, far away).
Maybe they eventually wander south?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 17 2022, 6:27pm
Post #17 of 38
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Ostirith seems to be the tower (and fortress?) that we've seen several times before, located at the source of the river that flows past Tirharad and the other village (Homeberen?). All are south of Mount Doom. Many of the residents of Tirharad seem to be refugees from the South (Harad).
We need a better image of that map.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 17 2022, 6:34pm)
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DanielLB
Immortal
Aug 17 2022, 6:57pm
Post #18 of 38
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That's one big tree growing in Ephel Dúath
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Must serve some purpose in the story, surely? Otherwise why is it so prominent?
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Arannir
Valinor
Aug 17 2022, 6:59pm
Post #19 of 38
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Since Bronwyn and Arondir are in what later becomes Mordor, the Harfoots should be located East of that... Maybe Rhûn, judging from the meteor's path (one of the showrunners who confirmed that the priestess is not Sauron mentioned that the cult people also come from further East).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Aug 17 2022, 7:00pm)
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Stranger Wings
Rivendell
Aug 17 2022, 7:02pm
Post #20 of 38
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Since Bronwyn and Arondir are in what later becomes Mordor, the Harfoots should be located East of that... Maybe Rhûn, judging from the meteor's path (one of the showrunners who confirmed that the priestess is not Sauron mentioned that the cult people also come from further East).
I think…significantly increases the likelihood of the Stranger being a Blue Wizard.
“He went alone to look in Mirrormere.” - The Book of Mazarbul
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Lindentree
Rivendell
Aug 17 2022, 7:32pm
Post #21 of 38
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what's with the large tree at the bottom of the map?
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There must be a reason...
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Stranger Wings
Rivendell
Aug 17 2022, 7:36pm
Post #22 of 38
(675 views)
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It may just be an indication that…
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…Mordor was green and forested, at this time.
Either that or the Silvan elves planted a huge tree there after the War of Wrath?
Shrugs. Kinda interesting.
“He went alone to look in Mirrormere.” - The Book of Mazarbul
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Lindentree
Rivendell
Aug 17 2022, 7:37pm
Post #23 of 38
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but then I often think about ents
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Stranger Wings
Rivendell
Aug 17 2022, 7:41pm
Post #24 of 38
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And we’ve seen ents in the harfoot footage. I bet that’s it.
“He went alone to look in Mirrormere.” - The Book of Mazarbul
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Narvi
Lorien
Aug 17 2022, 8:25pm
Post #25 of 38
(637 views)
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It may just be part of the decorative scheme that frames most antique maps. There are often little vignettes at the bottom of these. Considering that Mordor typically lies at the southeastern borders of our maps of Middle-earth, I find this more likely than the idea that it represents a feature of the landscape. I hope that we will eventually get to see the rest of the map in some form.
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