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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 15 2020, 8:20pm
Post #26 of 56
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True, maybe the Witch King etc.
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He has striking looks and could pull off several different roles.
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Althoun
Menegroth
Jan 15 2020, 8:26pm
Post #28 of 56
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Wonder if we'll see any Drúedain...
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They are in both Númenor and Middle-earth (i.e. Ras Morthil area) at this time, and would be a new 'race' (their Men, technically, but quite different physiologically from most Atani) to those who haven't read the books and have only seen the films.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 15 2020, 8:40pm
Post #29 of 56
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"The strangest of all the customs of the Folk of Haleth was the presence among them of people of a wholly different kind, the like of which neither the Eldar in Beleriand nor the other Atani had ever seen before" (p. 377, Unfinished Tales). Atani was an Elvish word for Men. These people are the Drûg in the Haladin tongue. Because the Elves reckoned this people along with the Edain they were called Drúedain the Sindarin tongue. They were short stumpy, grew no facial hair (other than eyebrows) except a few men "...who were proud of the distinction..." (p. 377, Unfinished Tales), black eyes as dark as their pupils, wide mouths, deep and gutteral voices, and a laughter that set all who heard it, be they Elf or Man, laughing too. They were very few of number. It's important to note that Tolkien is adamant these are NOT Hobbits despite some similar features." http://middleearthinayear.blogspot.com/...th-and-druedain.html
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MoreMorgoth
Ossiriand
Jan 15 2020, 8:55pm
Post #30 of 56
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Mawle was exceptional as the evil Inspector Shine on RIPPER STREET. He is one of those actors who steals every scene he is in making himself the focus of it. If he is playing Sauron, it is a stroke of genius.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jan 15 2020, 9:06pm
Post #31 of 56
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I wonder if that early description holds true in later writings. Still, there's room for some reinterpretation if the Estate is amenable.
#FidelityToTolkien
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Althoun
Menegroth
Jan 15 2020, 9:48pm
Post #32 of 56
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Can't discount Celebrimbor as initial 'foil' villain tho...
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Mawle was exceptional as the evil Inspector Shine on RIPPER STREET. He is one of those actors who steals every scene he is in making himself the focus of it. If he is playing Sauron, it is a stroke of genius.
This is a genuine possibility if (as seems quite apparent to me from map & various other little hints), they are relying heavily on the Second Age account in the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales.
Celebrimbor is a very 'ambiguous' personality in Tolkien's writings, and I feel sure they'll go with the standard version of him being Feanor's grandson, and thus partly under the 'curse' or at least the shadow/memory of it.
This would be partly why he is so intent on healing the scarred lands of Middle-earth, given his family's role in the ruin of Beleriand in the War of the Silmarils in the First Age, as an idealistic, utopian endeavour.
But he is also thoroughly ambitious, and there is the implication of jealousy in the UT narrative about his unreciprocated love for Galadriel.
He then goes on, under Annatar's influence, to orchestrate the coup of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain (in this UT version I'm almost sure they'll be relying on), seizing power in Eregion and overthrowing Galadriel and Celeborn, forcing the former to flee to Lothlorien through Khazad-Dum.
Celebrimbor then forges the Rings of Power.
Of course, when he learns the truth about Sauron he seeks out Galadriel in remorse and gifts her Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, before being brutally murdered by Sauron.
He would thus be a villain of great pathos and sympathy from the audience, but the 'coup' would be a truly villainous act.
I see Annatar as being like Shakespeare's Iago in Othello. Everybody (pretty much except Galadriel & Gil-galad) trusts him unfailingly, he seems so moral, but he's mixing & playing everyone around him whole time like chess pieces. I don't think they'd portray him as a villain or Sauron right off the bat, so I expect a foil antagonist early on.
Observor ran an independent last November that correctly got all the audition names right (later leaked), it also said: "Mawle is said to be playing Oren, a villain who can also evoke a deep sense of pathos built around a wounded and fallen nobility. Though the character is middle-aged, Oren will possess a certain degree of physicality and project a sense of timelessness.""
This could apply to either Sauron or Celebrimbor - but on balance I think even the originally penitent Sauron with the idealistic intent still wouldn't elicit 'pathos' (sympathy) from the audience - he's still more like Iago, a manipulator and sociopath (even if, originally, for "the greater good"). Charming & persuasive, not coming across evil, but I'm not sure about 'pathos'. Albeit as Annatar he would come across as charming, but I still don't see him as "wounded" - Celebrimbor seems like the more conflicted, wounded person, bitter and ambitious in equal measure.
Annatar, I'd never have personally thought of as "middle-aged" since he needs to be seductive for the ever-youthful Noldor Elves of Eregion (but 'a sense of timelessness' could be indicative). Eldien (Morfydd Clark's Galadriel) is described "as a complex, unique and formidable young woman in her mid-20s who possesses an eternal quality and a strong physical component", so timeless/eternal could simply mean Elven, although I doubt he'd be middle-aged looking if an Elf (Tolkien said this only happened through severe stress, if I recall).
To be fair, two of the main scriptwriters (Hutchison & Shang) from their Twitter feed seem to like console games, so they might be influenced a little by the "older/middle-aged-looking" Celebrimbor of the Shadow of Mordor games.
(This post was edited by Althoun on Jan 15 2020, 9:50pm)
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TheHutt
Mithlond
Jan 16 2020, 7:10am
Post #33 of 56
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Ismael Cruz Cordova - Annatar??? Córdova could be Annatar. He might instead be playing one of the Men who receive the Nine Rings from Sauron.
I say, Khamul, 2nd important Nazgûl.
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Booklet - Custom Booklet Project
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jan 16 2020, 2:03pm
Post #34 of 56
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Córdova could be Annatar. He might instead be playing one of the Men who receive the Nine Rings from Sauron. I say, Khamul, 2nd important Nazgûl.
That is my best guess also, reminding me of the days when Ricardo Montalban might be cast as anything from an American Indian to Khan Noonien Singh.
#FidelityToTolkien
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Jan 16 2020, 4:06pm
Post #35 of 56
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Tolkien was very vague as to the ethnicity or racial makeup of the "Easterlings." He could easily have seen them as a series of different barbarian peoples, as various as Scythians, Sarmatians, Slavs, Huns, Magyars, Mongols and Turks, having nothing more in common than coming out of the East.
(I was going to say Goths, but the Northmen have that role covered)
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Althoun
Menegroth
Jan 16 2020, 5:21pm
Post #36 of 56
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The boy, Tyroe, I think is Amroth
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The young boy, Tyroe Muhaffadin, has surely got to be an "elf-child". He just has to be, given that he has the most Elven ears I've ever seen (naturally) and a very angelic face. If he's not a Elf-boy, then it's the biggest lost opportunity I've seen.
I'm going to guess that Tyroe is Amroth, son of Galadriel in the major Unfinished Tales version of her history in the Second Age. We know from the leaked audition scripts that Eldien (Galadriel) has a "son" whom she is very protective of. Beldor refers to him in one of the leaked scenes:
Beldor: Go home Eldien! If not for yourself… do it for your son.
Eldien: For the sake of the long path we have walked together I’ll dismiss your words as carelessness, but if you ever use my family against me our friendship is over!
If Tyroe is not the "son" (i.e. Amroth), I'd be truly surprised - as he looks like an Elf - and he's in the main cast, so Galadriel's "son" is the obvious candidate.
The fact that this Amazon Galadriel has a 'son' would indicate that their following the UT account, and that he's Amroth (yep, the one who grew up to become the King of Lórien and fall in love with the lower-class Silvan elf Nimrodel, who lived there, to tragic effect).
I have no idea which actor his dad, Celeborn, might be. Maxim Baldry, who is no longer here (at least in this batch), could convincingly have portrayed his father given some physical resemblances between them. Perhaps Celeborn is one of the key roles yet to be cast.
Owain Arthur could be a dwarf or a Drug (Drúedain). I saw the video of the leaked audition script for a character called Brac, who appeared to be some kind of Middle-earth native living in Númenor, who found the urban living not to his liking. I think he's a Drug - the actor playing seemed to be portraying a not-entirely-human character (Drúedain are Men but of a very unique kind). The guy second along top looks to me like he could comvingly portray the same archetype and he even has a physical resemblance to the rejected auditionee I saw:
Brac: I don’t know how you do it. There’s far too much built here. It’s too bright.
Radagar: It’s the dead of night.
Brac: And yet it feels like noon-day. The night should be a blanket, wrapped around keen and close air. It’s far too wide here, disconnected. I can’t ever quite escape the feeling that it’s all about to fall over. I think I’ll take off tomorrow, head back to my homeland.
Radagar: But you’ve only just arrived!
Brac: Yes, and I appreciate both your queen’s hospitality and your own… But I miss the fields and the night skies and Emma. I miss Emma.
Radagar: Very well. But there is something I need to ask of you.Brac: Spit it out, then.
Radagar: The queen…
Brac: Radagar…
Radagar: She wanted me to tell you that our people will make amends for each yield of crop you lost during our wars.Brac: Well, it’s a great relief to know that there’s still some honor left in the west. But let us not talk of politics and grievances tonight. Tell me the old tales of your people.
(This post was edited by Althoun on Jan 16 2020, 5:24pm)
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Nargothrond
Jan 16 2020, 6:36pm
Post #37 of 56
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About Tyroe Muhafidin. If he is not playing Amroth (or an elf, at any rate) then I think that's a wasted opportunity: his ears are completely pointed.
"It is my duty to fight" - Mulan
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jan 17 2020, 3:55pm
Post #38 of 56
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That actually sounds accurate.
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Tolkien was very vague as to the ethnicity or racial makeup of the "Easterlings." He could easily have seen them as a series of different barbarian peoples, as various as Scythians, Sarmatians, Slavs, Huns, Magyars, Mongols and Turks, having nothing more in common than coming out of the East.
(I was going to say Goths, but the Northmen have that role covered)
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see the Easterlings: a loose confederation of diverse peoples united under Sauron. Most of the peoples of the Uttermost East of Middle-earth might never have even ever seen a Man of Northman stock. Some nearer to Dorwinion and Rhovanion seem to be related to the Northmen themselves.
#FidelityToTolkien
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 17 2020, 3:59pm)
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Hasuwandil
Menegroth
Jan 19 2020, 2:29am
Post #39 of 56
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A possibility: Tyroe Mufahidin is a young Easterling refugee who is avoiding capture by a usurper. Megan Richards is, perhaps, his sister. Tyroe's character is named Khamûl.
Hêlâ Auriwandil, angilô berhtost,
oƀar Middangard mannum gisandid!
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fantasywind
Ossiriand
Jan 19 2020, 11:03am
Post #40 of 56
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About Tyroe Muhafidin. If he is not playing Amroth (or an elf, at any rate) then I think that's a wasted opportunity: his ears are completely pointed.
I can't see that happening for some reason, besides Amroth takes part in battles in Second Age war so...of course it may be possible but, why would they do that? I see no story telling purpose in casting a child for role of an Elf when they could not have much to do with him, he will probably play either completely original role we can't yet guess or (far less likely) an existing character as a child (Ibal of Mariner's Wife, very unlikely), my bet it will be original character. Of course all my musings are taking into account if the available material for History of Galadriel and Celeborn even would be used at all.
Amroth disregarding his origin, is taking part in events:
Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrían; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In Lórinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron.
...
He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth.
Of course we can think that the boy will play younger version of character but that would mean he would have very little screen time. Still my analysis is worth less than nothing, as I'm thinking in terms of Tolkien story, and it's clear Amazon will try to make their own thing if not downright fanfiction.
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Jan 19 2020, 1:51pm
Post #41 of 56
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that these are just audition scripts, if this represents the style and quality of the dialogue for this show then I think the outlook is very bleak indeed.
(and if the show were planning to use Tolkien-grade dialogue, you would think they would insist on using it for auditions, for how else could they tell if an actor was capable of pulling it off without sounding like Tony Curtis in Spartacus?)
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fantasywind
Ossiriand
Jan 19 2020, 2:58pm
Post #42 of 56
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that these are just audition scripts, if this represents the style and quality of the dialogue for this show then I think the outlook is very bleak indeed.
(and if the show were planning to use Tolkien-grade dialogue, you would think they would insist on using it for auditions, for how else could they tell if an actor was capable of pulling it off without sounding like Tony Curtis in Spartacus?)
I think I agree on that point, the dialogue in those casting tapes is bad, it doesn't even try, those sound like random talks of people and you wouldn't even tell it's set in Middle-earth, there is no particular speech style, every line is the same, there is nothing about the language that would seem tolkienesque. The dialogue issue is one of the things where this show could fall apart, outside of the main narrative set in SA the Mariner's Wife which has loads of dialogue, outside that there are some lines written by Tolkien but nowhere near enough for a tv show, so lots of it will have to written by script writers either way, let's hope it won't this bad (besides I will riot if at least some portion of Tolkien written dialogue will not get into series :)).
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2ndBreffest
Menegroth
Jan 19 2020, 3:13pm
Post #43 of 56
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based on that dialogue, you would think they were auditioning for an episode of Xena Warrior Princess.
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Jan 19 2020, 3:25pm
Post #44 of 56
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(Tolkien to Hugh Brogan, Sept 1955) I know well enough what a
modern would say. 'Not at all my dear G. You don't know your own skill as a doctor. Things aren't
going to be like that. I shall go to the war in person, even if I have to be one of the first casualties'
— and then what? Theoden would certainly think, and probably say 'thus shall I sleep better'! But
people who think like that just do not talk a modern idiom. You can have 'I shall lie easier in my
grave', or 'I should sleep sounder in my grave like that rather than if I stayed at home' – if you like.
But there would be an insincerity of thought, a disunion of word and meaning. For a King who
spoke in a modern style would not really think in such terms at all, and any reference to sleeping
quietly in the grave would be a deliberate archaism of expression on his part (however worded) far
more bogus than the actual 'archaic' English that I have used.
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Althoun
Menegroth
Jan 19 2020, 3:45pm
Post #45 of 56
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Yeah, the dialogue is atrocious....
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that these are just audition scripts, if this represents the style and quality of the dialogue for this show then I think the outlook is very bleak indeed.
(and if the show were planning to use Tolkien-grade dialogue, you would think they would insist on using it for auditions, for how else could they tell if an actor was capable of pulling it off without sounding like Tony Curtis in Spartacus?)
But nearly every audition tape I've ever viewed, for a production, is similarly dire in quality and never actually used in the subsequent show/film.
The Star Wars one (for the first film of the recent trilogy), infamously involved nonsense about "blood" in "barns".
They are intended to test ability to convey character traits & hokey dialogue is sometimes considered a plus, in that a "good actor" should be able to play the phone book with skill and verve.
What reason do we have to believe that these audition scripts are any different?
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2ndBreffest
Menegroth
Jan 19 2020, 4:05pm
Post #46 of 56
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truthfully, the dialogue that did actually end up in the first disney SW movie is far from the quality that I would expect to see in any decent adaptation of Tolkien. However, yes there's no reason at this point to believe that the dialogue in those audition tapes are actual in show dialogue, but there's similarly no reason to believe that it isn't either...one thing however is certain, what we are seeing is not in any way similar to anything you would ever see in any of Tolkien's writings.
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Althoun
Menegroth
Jan 19 2020, 4:12pm
Post #47 of 56
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No disagreement from me there....
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truthfully, the dialogue that did actually end up in the first disney SW movie is far from the quality that I would expect to see in any decent adaptation of Tolkien. However, yes there's no reason at this point to believe that the dialogue in those audition tapes are actual in show dialogue, but there's similarly no reason to believe that it isn't either...one thing however is certain, what we are seeing is not in any way similar to anything you would ever see in any of Tolkien's writings.
I'm just wary of prejudging anything until we see something official in the way of dialogue/plot/script.
All we have thus far is general setting (in the most general way, literally just 'Second Age') and a bunch of actors, nothing in the way of what source material they are actually using, the main storyline, the visual look, the themes etc.
My reticence in viewing audition scripts as, in any sense, an indication of what to expect is simply on the basis of past experience from other shows.
I'm no Star Wars fan, myself (and wouldn't rate any of the films), but I will say that the dialogue in the actual first film was much better than the audition scripts - a low bar, perhaps, given that the former were gobbledegook, but it certainly was a whole lot better.
(This post was edited by Althoun on Jan 19 2020, 4:12pm)
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 19 2020, 4:52pm
Post #48 of 56
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That letter highlights the problems faced by "Tolkien" screenwriters
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His point to Brogan wasn' t just that it's impossible to have characters in a fantasy medieval-style setting talk in modern idiom. Earlier in that same passage he points out that Theoden also doesn't talk in actual medieval style, as that would be hard for modern readers to decode even if the vocabulary was limited to still surviving words:
"But take an example from the chapter that you specially singled out (and called terrible): ‘Nay, Gandalf!’ said the King. ‘You do not know your own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall in the front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better.’
"Using only words that still are used or known to the educated, the King would really have said: ‘Nay, thou wost not thine own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall . . .’ etc." (also Letter 171) Tolkien, in short, is defending his decision to invent a new style of dialogue for his epic, what he called "moderated or watered archaism". In my opinion, his readers respond to his invention, and those who don't like it don't like the books in general. The result is that Tolkien fans know Tolkien when they hear him (so to speak), without really being able to pinpoint what makes his language so distinctive.
Assuming that the writers for this new series are actually going to try to write original material that 'sounds like Tolkien', they have a huge burden. Adaptation to the screen from existing writing is hard enough. This new project isn't adaptation, it's pure invention; and yet the bar is to write speeches that sound like Tolkien wrote them - Tolkien, who'd read hundreds of medieval narratives and figured out how to update their language to be readable for a 20th century audience yet not sound like the speakers were 20th century people.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Jan 19 2020, 4:57pm
Post #49 of 56
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the decided upward shift in tone in the LR movies whenever genuine Tolkien dialogue made an appearance; Boyens etc couldn't pull it off even on those occasions when they tried.
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Mari D.
Ossiriand
Jan 19 2020, 5:02pm
Post #50 of 56
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Thanks for your estimate ... & curious question
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Mawle was exceptional as the evil Inspector Shine on RIPPER STREET. He is one of those actors who steals every scene he is in making himself the focus of it. If he is playing Sauron, it is a stroke of genius.
I haven't seen the series/movie myself - it is great to hear that Mr. Mawle is capable of such mesmerizing/captivating acting.
There's still this one aspect I'm worried about though. I think the actor handsome, yes. But he has a certain shrewd/sly look I'm not sure would lend itself to the pretense of innocent goodness. Once Sauron's evil is revealed, yes, perfect casting. But as long as he's still trying to hide it ... if Annatar doesn't instantly appear to me as a viewer as super-good-guy, why would I buy that he fools the ever-so-wise elves, if he is really putting all his effort into taking on a harmless, beautiful shape?
Of the presented cast, I'd think the one that's most this "I'm so noble believe me" type would be Daniel Weyman.
(If Mr. Mawle is playing Sauron, I wonder if they could do some subtle changes via make up or CGI that fall away once Sauron's evil is revealed ... that might also be interesting ...)
What do you (or others) think about how well Mr. Mawle is able to portray thoroughly innocent goodness? As I said, never watched anything from him ... would be pleased to hear you think he could nail that, too.
(This post was edited by Mari D. on Jan 19 2020, 5:09pm)
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