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Eruonen
Gondolin
Dec 7 2019, 4:36pm
Post #26 of 49
(2107 views)
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Tolkien really liked the character of Hawkeye in Last of the Mohicans
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as well as other frontier characters. I see this in Aragorn and the rangers, Beren etc.
.https://www.mic.com/...th-based-on-kentucky
"Tolkien wrote that stories about "Red Indians" were his favourites as a boy. Shippey mentions Tolkien's interest in the primeval forests and people of North America, and speculates that the romantic descriptions of characters in James Fenimore Cooper might have influenced his descriptions of Aragorn and Éomer.[52]" Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/...lkien%27s_influences
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 7 2019, 4:49pm)
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Dec 7 2019, 7:48pm
Post #27 of 49
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Sauron's Ring was not exactly common knowledge. As Gandalf said, what he told Frodo was for the most part known only to the Wise; and apparently nobody had ever read the Scroll of Isildur until Gandalf found it.
While Faramir was studious (as was his father), it's not likely that they knew any particulars, other than the rumor (3000 years old!) that Isildur had recovered some talisman of power from Sauron's body. And it's not likely Isildur told many people; according to The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, he only told his eldest son Elendur about it, and Elendur didn't survive.
Note also that nobody in Gondor, neither Denethor nor either son, had any clue what the "Isildur's Bane" of the dream was. While Boromir wasn't the bookish type, if Denethor had figured it out he certainly would have told him before sending him north! (In fact, the book heavily implies that Denethor had never heard of the Ring until Gandalf told him of Frodo's mission on the eve of the Siege; and Denethor's scolding of Faramir happened after that)
Faramir was shrewd, and he doubtless guessed near to the truth; but I don't think all the tumblers clicked into place for him until Sam's outburst.
(This post was edited by Solicitr on Dec 7 2019, 7:51pm)
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Dec 8 2019, 10:45am
Post #28 of 49
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I think Faramir's vision of Boromir shows Tolkien up to one of his favourite themes - forcing characters to make decisions based on limited information, but rewarding chracters who prefer the right choice to the clever one. Here, Frodo can fill in some puzzling details for Faramir (where Bormir's belt and boat came from). But neither character knows as much about the situation as we readers do.
As people have already said, I think Frodo's shocked reaction that the rest of the Felowship might be dead is quite a moment. Faramir can also tell a lot about Frodo, I expect, from Frodo's reaction. ("Will you not put aside your doubt of me and let me go? I am weary, and full of grief, and afraid. But I have a deed to do, or to attempt, before I too am slain. And the more need of haste, if we two halflings are all that remain of our fellowship.")
Faramir and Frodo here are reminiscent of Aragorn and Eomer in "Riders of Rohan" earlier in the book. Like Aragorn, Frodo has been captured by an armed patrol and has to persuade its leader not to carry out his standing orders to kill or arrest any travellers. The two meetings are of course different in many ways. But I think Frodo's willingness here to go on with his mission impresses Faramir. And I think it's similar to Aragorn's willingness to fight Eomer if Eomer insists on carrying out his orders. People are admired in Middle-earth if they push on indominitably with doing their duty, however hopeless it seems.
Perhaps 'Riders of Rohan' is someone's favourite chapter & they'd like to lead it....?
~~~~~~
"Go down to the shovel store and take your pick." Traditional prank played on dwarves when they start down the mine.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Dec 8 2019, 10:55am)
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Dec 8 2019, 5:43pm
Post #31 of 49
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Thinking about Boromir's boat, and how Tolkien bewilders his characters reminded me of a talk by Prof Tom Shippey. I was going to post it here, but when I looked it up again, it seemed to belong even more in last week's chapter, The Mirror of Galadriel. So I put it over there: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=968154#968154
I wasn't expecting the same theme to turn up in two such different chapters! But the favourite chapters project is going to make us dodge about in Tolkien's works, rather than tackle them in any conventional order. And perhaps more unexpected links will occur to us because of it- wouldn't that be nice!
~~~~~~
The Reading Room 'favourite chapters' project. http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=967482#967482 Each week, someone presents a favourite chapter from The Hobbit, LOTR or the Silmarillion. Just sign yourself up onto the schedule if you can lead a chapter.
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Dec 8 2019, 5:45pm)
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demnation
Nargothrond
Dec 9 2019, 2:57am
Post #32 of 49
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I really do think that Faramir the pure, noble character works because he is so very different from his father and brother
"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."
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demnation
Nargothrond
Dec 9 2019, 3:07am
Post #33 of 49
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Never really thought about how Faramir/Frodo echo Aragorn/Eomer from earlier in the book. The joys of discussing this stuff with others!
"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."
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demnation
Nargothrond
Dec 9 2019, 3:14am
Post #34 of 49
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I never really saw that the ring was little more than a myth or rumor to the Gondorians and Isildur's bane was at best a guess. Perhaps I'm overly influenced by the movies, where its made very clear that Denethor knows about the ring from the very beginning
"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."
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demnation
Nargothrond
Dec 9 2019, 3:17am
Post #35 of 49
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odd to think that things might have turned out worse for all involved if it was Faramir in the fellowship instead. And through no fault of his own! a fun what if for sure
"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Dec 9 2019, 3:30am
Post #36 of 49
(1903 views)
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Faramir wouldn't have tried to take the Ring from Frodo in the first place
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Dec 9 2019, 3:31am
Post #37 of 49
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everybody knows way too much. The books are driven as much as anything by what people don't know.
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 9 2019, 1:18pm
Post #38 of 49
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We don't really know if Denethor knew about the Ring.
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Gandalf states he thinks nobody but Saruman and him read Isildur's scroll for many years, and Boromir clearly did not know of the Ring.
However, Gandalf was wrong several times about Denethor, and the Steward does seem to know quite a bit about the Ring. Could he have kept the secret from his son ere he left for Imladris? Or, if (as Gandalf guessed), Denethor had pondered long about "Isildur's Bane" since Boromir left - is it far-fetched to suppose that he did the logical thing, searched for and read the very scroll Saruman and Gandalf did?
As was mentioned by Solicitr, in the movies the characters know quite a lot about things - this might be a means of keeping the relevant information in front of movie-firsters; or else the movie-makers felt that having characters rely mostly on faith and intuition won't "work" for the audience.
But it does change the story - and in my opinion, usually to its detriment. And whether the feeling regarding what would "work" is correct or not (I suspect successful movie-makers have a better guess than a secluded person like me) - I personally find the constant flaunting of the Ring cringeworthy. Compare, for instance, Faramir's statement he does not want to ever see the Ring, lest he falls lower in the test than Frodo.
Thinking about things I don't understand
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sador
Gondolin
Dec 9 2019, 1:41pm
Post #39 of 49
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Prof. Shippey compared the two chapters.
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He argues that Eomer is out of his depth dealing with Aragorn, while Faramir is in firm control of the situation throughout this and the next chapter; in fact, he states that while the Denethor-Pippin relationship compaers unfavourably with the Théoden-Merry one, Faramir's intelligence and integrity belies his own words that in the Men of Gondor are losing their claim to being High Men.
I would go as far as quoting Boromir's words: "Believe not that in the land of Gondor the blood of Numenor is spent, nor all its pride and dignity forgotten" - although I doubt that he actually thought of his young brother when saying them. Perhaps he did.
Faramir and Frodo here are reminiscent of Aragorn and Eomer in "Riders of Rohan" earlier in the book. Like Aragorn, Frodo has been captured by an armed patrol and has to persuade its leader not to carry out his standing orders to kill or arrest any travellers. The two meetings are of course different in many ways. But I think Frodo's willingness here to go on with his mission impresses Faramir. And I think it's similar to Aragorn's willingness to fight Eomer if Eomer insists on carrying out his orders. People are admired in Middle-earth if they push on indominitably with doing their duty, however hopeless it seems.
Thinking about things I don't understand
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Dec 9 2019, 2:27pm
Post #40 of 49
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In Eomer's defense, he isn't dealing with two frightened hobbits, but a veteran warrior-chieftain who claims to be a king and two combat-hardened princelings (one of whom isn't very tactful)
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ElanorTX
Dor-Lomin
Dec 11 2019, 1:04pm
Post #41 of 49
(1828 views)
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and Last of the Mohicans has a similar hiding place -
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a sort of cave behind a waterfall. When Hawkeye and the Indians find that their gunpowder is soaked and useless, they jump into the torrent, leaving Duncan and the Munroe sisters behind on the ledge. Unfortunately Magwa and his party discover them there.
"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Dec 11 2019, 3:53pm
Post #43 of 49
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Hawkeye and Aragorn are distant relatives.......
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond
Dec 11 2019, 5:54pm
Post #44 of 49
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somewhere between common knowledge and utterly secret?
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Once the Ring is mentioned, Faramir does seem to know what that is. Is the lore of the Great Rings entirely lost in the Third Age, outside the White Council? Is Isildur's scroll (which supplies Gandalf with important new information, and which as an aside seems to have been found by Saruman as well) the only remembrance of it except by deathless elves and wizards? But Glóin makes clear that the memory of the Rings is alive and well among the Longbeards, and not just of their own; he's heard of the Three.
Plenty of tales of yore are kept alive; the Silmarils and the Palantíri are of greater antiquity than the Rings, and tales of them clearly abound among lettered people. Where is the implication that Denethor didn't know about the Ring? I never had that impression.
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Dec 11 2019, 6:01pm
Post #45 of 49
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But Glóin makes clear that the memory of the Rings is alive and well among the Longbeards, and not just of their own; he's heard of the Three.
I'm not so sure that's the case; he only brings up the Three well after Elrond has told the whole history. And as Elrond replies, "Of the Three it is not permitted to speak."
The Longbeards (at least the royal house) had a tradition of their ring; but it's unclear how much if anything they knew even of the other Dwarf-rings.
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond
Dec 11 2019, 7:51pm
Post #46 of 49
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I hd never read things this way. I'm not sold; I believe he says "very mighty Rings, it is said," or something like that, not "very mighty Rings, you told us just now." But I guess I am a little short on hard evidence that the history of the Rings is not as secret as you make it. There's lots of conversation about it between the Wise and members of the Fellowship, and we the readers are right there, so it can begin to feel like old hat, maybe? But without actually cracking the text, I still find Faramir's apparent recognition, at least, leads me the other way—and although my memory isn't so fresh on conversations with Denethor, I am not too ready to conclude that he never knew of the Rings. But neither can I show that he did. Back to the books! Back to the books, Sam, like lightning!
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Dec 12 2019, 3:46pm
Post #47 of 49
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Tolkien still was including vague allusions to his beloved Germanic legends; a case could be (in fact has been) made that he conceived his legendarium as being the foundation stock of the "cauldron of story" from which the tales of our world ultimately derived.
So Faramir here says, twice, "I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway."
Now, Beowulf alludes, in the periphery as it were, to the matter of Freawaru and Ingeld, son of Froda or Froði (yes, same name as Mr Baggins). Froda was the legendary king of Denmark in whose golden age, it was said, a man could leave a golden ring by the highway and it would be untouched until he came to pick it up again.....
(This post was edited by Solicitr on Dec 12 2019, 3:47pm)
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uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond
Dec 12 2019, 4:30pm
Post #48 of 49
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I never caught the name Froda, let alone would I have known that delightfully obscure (but unmistakably intended) reference. But it is also definitely one more support for Théoden's remark that the language of the Rohirrim and of the hobbits seem marked by some distant relationship: a sort of anointing of hobbits (good plain Englishmen, unassuming but tough in the fibre) as heirs—like forgotten kings, perhaps—to the unshrinking valor of old Germanic legend, as I've generally been reading it.
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Dec 12 2019, 5:29pm
Post #49 of 49
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I never caught the name Froda, .
Tolkien even makes it explicit in Appendix F, where he tells us that actual masculine hobbit-names ended in -a, which he 'anglicized' (really Latinized) to -o. Thus Froda, Bilba, Otha.....
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