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Gandalf the Green
Ossiriand
Feb 14 2016, 7:49pm
Post #1 of 39
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When Thorin arrived...
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In AUJ - when Thorin arrived at Bilbo's house and knocked - why were they all acting as if there was a murderer at the door? It was odd, to say the least. I could go and edit that scene and have Jason Voorhees show up with a chainsaw and it would be a perfect fit.
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LSF
Mithlond
Feb 14 2016, 7:58pm
Post #2 of 39
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I love the imageset of this, where it says "PARTY!", door knocks, everyone stops, then closeup on Gandalf saying "f-ing cops." 
Though really, the serious business leader has arrived. I think hushed tones is an appropriate reaction, even if you are expecting him.
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Feb 14 2016, 7:59pm
Post #3 of 39
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They are having a good time singing and joking around, then there is a nook on the door. Who can that be? Is it Thorin? If it is then it is time to stop being funny and become serious.
This was a good way to go from singing and joking to a serious conversation in just a few seconds.
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Avandel
Gondolin
Feb 14 2016, 8:33pm
Post #4 of 39
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Exiled or not, Thorin's the leader of dwarves at Ered Luin...and it's obvious the dwarves all know who he is. Ori is practically bowing to the floor when Thorin arrives.
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Gandalf the Green
Ossiriand
Feb 14 2016, 8:35pm
Post #5 of 39
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Is it Thorin? If it is then it is time to stop being funny and become serious.
Yes, because the dwarves were all so serious during the journey, like, mess-up-Rivendell-and-sing-on-the-elvenlord's-plinth-esque serious...
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LSF
Mithlond
Feb 14 2016, 8:40pm
Post #7 of 39
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By that point the group knows each other better, including Thorin. Besides, disrespecting elves is something Thorin probably approves of  . Just because they're not serious all the time on the journey doesn't mean they shouldn't be when the king arrives at the door at the start of it. You can have fun, be a fun person, and still know when you should be more serious.
(This post was edited by LSF on Feb 14 2016, 8:42pm)
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Avandel
Gondolin
Feb 14 2016, 8:45pm
Post #8 of 39
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By that point the group knows each other better, including Thorin. Besides, disrespecting elves is something Thorin probably approves of . Just because they're not serious all the time on the journey doesn't mean they shouldn't be when the king arrives at the door at the start of it. You can have fun, be a fun person, and still know when you should be more serious.
Dwarves being rowdy doesn't mean you get rowdy with Thorin. And they don't. They sure shut up fast enough when Thorin tells them to.
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Gandalf the Green
Ossiriand
Feb 14 2016, 8:58pm
Post #9 of 39
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By that point the group knows each other better, including Thorin. Besides, disrespecting elves is something Thorin probably approves of . Just because they're not serious all the time on the journey doesn't mean they shouldn't be when the king arrives at the door at the start of it. You can have fun, be a fun person, and still know when you should be more serious.
Are you implying that most of the group didn't know each other prior to that? And even Gandalf turns around and reacts as if a murderer has shown up at the door, this isn't just about the other characters. It's just an odd, overly dramatic atmosphere they create by doing that.
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Gandalf the Green
Ossiriand
Feb 14 2016, 9:01pm
Post #10 of 39
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I get your points and all, and they're perfectly fine, but the way it went from "funny" to "serious" in such an exaggerated manner was somewhat odd, and funny for all the things you could imagine with that. It could've been less exaggerated. Now, you could paste Jason Vorhees, a T-Rex or Darth Vader in front of the door and it would all make sense. 
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Feb 14 2016, 9:05pm
Post #11 of 39
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Yes, because the dwarves were all so serious during the journey, like, mess-up-Rivendell-and-sing-on-the-elvenlord's-plinth-esque serious... There is a big different between being serious in Bag End with Thorin and being serious in Rivendel with Elrond.
They respect Thorin because he is there leader, king and that he is a dwarf. And in Bag End they where talking about the quest and how they will get there and how to get inside Erebor.
They don't respect Elrond and the elves, they are not talking about anything serious there ( except for the map but they are serious in that scene).
To be honest the scene in Bag End and the scene in Rivendel is about the same, the first half of there visit they are joking around but when the serious things is happening then the dwarves become serious.
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LSF
Mithlond
Feb 14 2016, 9:06pm
Post #12 of 39
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They all might not know each other, or know each other well. Like, I don't think the poorer working class not-relatives Ur family would know Thorin personally well. This is a group of volunteers, not Thorin's personal guard or something.
I didn't find it odd. The king has arrived for serious business. Time to get serious.
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Gandalf the Green
Ossiriand
Feb 14 2016, 9:49pm
Post #13 of 39
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Even Gandalf reacted as if something dangerous was there, ready to knock down the door. Something somewhat similar happened in the first trilogy, and there it worked, in The Lord of the Rings, because chances were there were actually servants of Sauron there, or spies (and it just turned out to be Sam), but in the scene in The Hobbit, it was pretty exaggerated. It wasn't odd that they went from being funny to serious, but it was done so overly dramatic.
(This post was edited by Gandalf the Green on Feb 14 2016, 9:58pm)
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Gandalf the Green
Ossiriand
Feb 14 2016, 9:57pm
Post #14 of 39
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Yes, because the dwarves were all so serious during the journey, like, mess-up-Rivendell-and-sing-on-the-elvenlord's-plinth-esque serious... There is a big different between being serious in Bag End with Thorin and being serious in Rivendel with Elrond.
Even Thorin didn't separate the Mirkwood elves from the Rivendell elves, and all the other dwarves would've known the story about how Thranduil "left them to burn to crisps" by then. I personally can't see why they would go around upsetting the people who they might presume to have been among the ones who left many of their ancestors to die, as the story went. I'm sure there is a difference between being serious with the King of your own kin and a Lord of a species known by your own King as "betrayers and murderers", but I don't think the difference would be in the handling of the situation; rather, in the reasoning behind it.
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Feb 14 2016, 10:08pm
Post #15 of 39
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Even Gandalf reacted as if something dangerous was there, ready to knock down the door. No he is not. They are herring a nook on the door, they all become silent and looking at the door, then Gandalf said in an calm but serious tone "He is here". Gandalf reacted calm and serious in a sense of it is time for business, not dangerous.
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Elarie
Hithlum
Feb 14 2016, 10:14pm
Post #16 of 39
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I think it was done with the audience in mind
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Just my opinion, but I think that abrupt change in atmosphere was a quick way of showing the audience how important and serious Thorin's character is. With just two lines, "He's here" and the sudden change of atmosphere the audience is suddenly on the alert for the entrance of someone powerful and special and maybe a little bit frightening. Seeing the company's abrupt reaction to the knock and their facial expressions saves a lot of dialogue and time.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Feb 14 2016, 10:22pm
Post #17 of 39
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That the dwarves have no respect for the elves and shows that through being funny, burning furniture, throwing food and joking around. And the dwarves have respect for Thorin so they behave nicely and do as he says.
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LSF
Mithlond
Feb 14 2016, 10:25pm
Post #18 of 39
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another good point, yeah. If you can communicate something quickly, like about Thorin's importance and seriousness before we even see him, that's a way to do it, with a quick switch from fun to seriousness with everyone else.
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Gandalf the Green
Ossiriand
Feb 14 2016, 11:18pm
Post #19 of 39
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That the dwarves have no respect for the elves and shows that through being funny, burning furniture, throwing food and joking around. And the dwarves have respect for Thorin so they behave nicely and do as he says.
And my point is that the ways they acted in both scenarios were a bit too different from one another. Thorin was at the door, so they decided to throw aside the silliness because it was time for serious business, and were presumably afraid of doing something wrong, so attempted to act accordingly, which is a normal psychological reaction. But then they go to Rivendell and don't really seem to fear any possible consequences at all. Being funny and destroying stuff in an area inhabited by people who are known as untrustworthy scum by your king wouldn't be the first thing I think anyone would want to do, there. Basically, in both the Rivendell scenes and the scene of Thorin's arrival, the way the dwarves acted was exaggerated and too far on the end of one particular spectrum in each scene.
It's not the fact they went silent, however, it's the way they overdid the scene that made it overly dramatic. And yeah, Gandalf kind of did react as if someone with a drawn blade could've been standing at the door. They just created this atmosphere with the scene, and that made it come off that way.
(This post was edited by Gandalf the Green on Feb 14 2016, 11:23pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Feb 14 2016, 11:50pm
Post #20 of 39
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The phrase you are looking for is 'hearing a knock'. English can be weird.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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dormouse
Gondolin
Feb 14 2016, 11:51pm
Post #21 of 39
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..that in the film story Gandalf knows Thorin is being pursued by person or persons unknown, communicating in Black Speech, who do want to kill him, so for all he knows the loud, commanding knock on Bilbo's door could be someone with a drawn sword.
That's one way of looking at it. Another is simply to say that this is simply part of the build-up to Thorin's entrance. We're told that someone is missing - Dwalin assures Gandalf he will come - and the reaction of the dwarves to the knock on the door emphasises Thorin's importance for the audience - also the importance of the moment for the dwarves. It seals their fate, doesn't it? Is he coming with the support of the other dwarf families - will Dain come? Or will thirteen of them have to face a dragon alone.....
The dwarves are in awe of Thorin, he's their king. They do what he says. And as for the question of Rivendell, you might notice that when they start fooling about during the meal Thorin withdraws. He doesn't join in. But presumably because he feels as he does about the elves he doesn't raise any objection either.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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LSF
Mithlond
Feb 14 2016, 11:55pm
Post #22 of 39
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you can actually see Thorin tapping his foot and bobbing his head while Bofur is singing Though I think he leaves the table a little before they start messing around, when Elrond asks what they were doing on the East Road.
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tonyg
Registered User
Feb 15 2016, 12:06am
Post #23 of 39
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I would say Gandalf was a little nervous, because he wasn't sure how Thorin will react seeing the little hobbit who has to be a skilled burglar. When Thorin says " He looks more like a grocer than a burglar' and enters the room, Gandalf is relieved: Thorin accepted Bilbo... for now.
(This post was edited by tonyg on Feb 15 2016, 12:08am)
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Avandel
Gondolin
Feb 15 2016, 12:49am
Post #24 of 39
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the point has been made IMO both in the films, and even from Tolkien, that there are vast differences between the dwarven and elf mentality. The dwarves are work hard, play hard.
Basically, in both the Rivendell scenes and the scene of Thorin's arrival, the way the dwarves acted was exaggerated and too far on the end of one particular spectrum in each scene.
Perhaps. But on the other hand, with these Norse-influenced dwarves who also come from a mixture of economic backgrounds, perhaps not. Certainly Thorin behaves like royalty at the table and I've no doubt if Fili and Kili and Balin had been at Elrond's table they would have behaved like Thorin. Nor does Bilbo apparently join in the rowdiness.
Finally, the dwarves at Bilbo's are tweaking him a bit and certainly clean up after themselves; re Elrond after initial wariness I think the ancient concept of "guest friendship" would also come to the fore. Elrond has invited them to eat; re ancient custom even an enemy at your table is protected in your house (even if you slaughter each other later on a battlefield). So the dwarves DON'T have anything to "fear" per se.
Interestingly (as pointed out in the Appendices) the dwarves most emphatically do not carry on in Beorn's house, another symbol that the dwarves have truly crossed into the wild, where the rules are vastly different. As they are in Mirkwood.
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Nieriel
Ossiriand
Feb 15 2016, 4:32am
Post #25 of 39
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In AUJ - when Thorin arrived at Bilbo's house and knocked - why were they all acting as if there was a murderer at the door? It was odd, to say the least. I could go and edit that scene and have Jason Voorhees show up with a chainsaw and it would be a perfect fit. the dwarves being serious at that point because their king was arriving, the legend to dwarves that is Thorin Oakenshield. Gandalf, on the other hand, had another concern and good reason for some trepidation; would Thorin dismiss Bilbo out of hand as the potential burglar? Gandalf knows Thorin isn't someone easily swayed, and knows that it was going to take all the powers of his charm and persuasion to get Bilbo accepted. So yes, if I was Gandalf, I'd be nervous and if I was a dwarf, I'd be feeling a tad reverential if my king was about to come through the door.
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