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CuriousG
Gondolin
Jan 20 2016, 3:33am
Post #26 of 65
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There used to be "pants" threads here. Now you've introduced wedgie threads.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Jan 20 2016, 3:39am
Post #27 of 65
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Frodo has previously tried to give the Ring away to Aragorn (at the Council) and to Galadriel. Are those days gone forever now? Has Frodo changed? Would he have the strength of will to give the Ring up to anyone now? Good to bring this up. The poor guy was begging other people to take if off him before. I don't think it Galadriel appeared on some magic chariot from the sky that he would so willingly offer it to her a second time. He's crossed the Rubicon and accepted that his fate is bound to the Ring's, a decision hardened by the events at Parth Galen and Boromir's madness/treachery in particular. And the Ring has a more solid hold on him than before. Even in one of the powers of Elfdom, Rivendell, Frodo was loath to reveal it to others or even show it to beloved Uncle Bilbo, not to mention his unwillingness to give it to Gandalf in Bag End to throw in the fire. The Ring had a hold on him even then, and it's only gotten worse.
What's remarkable is that Sam will so easily give it up, but he bore it a very short time. And there's something Bombadil-like about Sam where I don't see the Ring finding any traction on him like it would others.
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enanito
Nargothrond
Jan 20 2016, 2:48pm
Post #28 of 65
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Beren, Luthien, and sneaking into Angband
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I'm reminded of arguably the greatest quest into the heart of darkness, Beren and Luthien's efforts to retrieve a Silmaril from Morgoth. I'm not exactly sure even these powerful beings had much of a Plan A as to how they'd make it in and out of Angband. When Beren is within eyesight of Thangorodrim he seems unsure of exactly how he's gonna do it, and even when Luthien and Huan show up their plan seems to be basically "let's disguise ourselves and see what happens".
And even though Finrod Felagund himself accompanied them, he didn't seem to really have any plan either, just his duty to fulfill his oath even if it meant his doom.
Plus, Beren at least had a powerful elf by his side who was willing to put her own life on the line. None of this "Frodo was meant to find the Ring so I'll stay out of it", or "I do not counsel yea or nay, I'll just give you a couple of elf-presents and send you on your way" we get from Galadriel. Interesting how when you're 100% invested in something as Luthien was, you find a way instead of just expecting fate to dictate its own terms. So am I blaming Galadriel? Well, I definitely wouldn't suggest that to her face-to-face...
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 20 2016, 10:17pm
Post #29 of 65
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'A little distance above Lake City is a famous point known as Maiden's Rock, which is not only a picturesque spot, but is full of romantic interest from the event which gave it its name, Not many years ago this locality was a favorite resort for the Sioux Indians on account of the fine fishing and hunting to be had there, and large numbers of them were always to be found in this locality. Among the families which used to resort here, was one belonging to the tribe of Wabasha. We-no-na (first-born) was the name of a maiden who had plighted her troth to a lover belonging to the same band. But her stern parents had promised her hand to another, a famous warrior, and insisted on her wedding him. The day was fixed by her parents, to her great grief. She appeared to accede to the proposal and accompany them to the rock, for the purpose of gathering flowers for the feast. On reaching the rock, We-no-na ran to its summit and standing on its edge upbraided her parents who were below, for their cruelty, and then singing a death-dirge, threw herself from the precipice and dashed them in pieces on the rock below.'
'Dashed who in pieces--her parents?'
'Yes.'
'Well, it certainly was a tragic business, as you say. And moreover, there is a startling kind of dramatic surprise about it which I was not looking for. It is a distinct improvement upon the threadbare form of Indian legend. There are fifty Lover's Leaps along the Mississippi from whose summit disappointed Indian girls have jumped, but this is the only jump in the lot hat turned out in the right and satisfactory way. What became of Winona?'
'She was a good deal jarred up and jolted: but she got herself together and disappeared before the coroner reached the fatal spot; and 'tis said she sought and married her true love, and wandered with him to some distant clime, where she lived happy ever after, her gentle spirit mellowed and chastened by the romantic incident which had so early deprived her of the sweet guidance of a mother's love and a father's protecting arm, and thrown her, all unfriended, upon the cold charity of a censorious world.'
-Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi
Thanks for allowing me to lead this chapter discussion.
No, thank you for leading.
It is my first, so be gentle, please.
Have no fear. This is The Reading Room, not The Hobbit Forum. We have a long tradition of courteous and civil discourse, not….whatever it is they do over there.
So, getting back then. Gollum is at the reins. What do we all think of that, I wonder.
On the one hand Gollum’s emergence as leader of the quest is completely unexpected. But is it, on the other hand, inevitable?
It’s amazing how, after so many years of lonely isolation, Gollum is so easily able to manipulate people. Like, was the idea to set him free to search for the Ring that of the Enemy’s or his own? (It’s telling that, just like with Frodo and the Elven rope, Gollum somehow convinces the Enemy not to put a leash on him. Thus they are continually losing him, which kinda defeats the purpose of setting him free in the first place.) He was able to convince the Mirkwood Elves to let him out in the daylight and climb trees despite the fact that they knew he was a creature who hated the sun and preferred deep caverns. And after his rescue by the orcs, he’s somehow able to convince the Enemy to let him go *again*!
Thus it’s no surprise that Gollum is able to so easily lead Frodo (and even Sam) around by the nose.
After all, Gollum is on a quest of his own.
Yes, in addition to Frodo’s quest to destroy the Ring and Sauron’s quest to recover the Ring he has his own agenda. One wonders if the Enemy also bound Gollum by an oath to "serve the master of the Precious”. I can understand naïve Frodo for falling for it, but Sauron is supposed to be diabolically clever. For example, Sauron’s little trick in promising to reunite Gorlim with his dear (and unbeknownst to him dead) wife Eilinel if he betrayed Beren shows he’s quite familiar with how oaths can be ironically twisted, so what the hey?
And It’s no accident that he has caught up to Frodo and Sam.
I’d imagine the trail of discarded lembas wrappers is quite easy to follow. Burns the soles of Gollum’s feet. I won’t even mention occasional little piles of lembas-rich hobbit spoor which probably phosphoresce in the dark. (But Mark Watney could turn Mordor into a tater garden even Sam would envy.)
Is it Gollum’s tenacity that is most responsible for his now taking control of the Ring’s journey?
One wonders if the Ring misses Gollum. Perhaps the supposedly providential tripping into the Cracks of Doom was more along the lines of a leap by two doomed lovers?
And if that is so, is it Sauron’s will within the Ring, rife with his own appetite for domination, that is responsible for Gollum’s tenacity?
Is the Ring, like Sam, “torn in two” between Sauron and Gollum? (Bilbo was just a fling born of a 500 year itch, and Frodo is little more than a temporary arrangement.)
Or should we give Frodo the lion’s share of the credit here, for having spared Gollum and enlisted him in the quest?
Frodo is a very fine tuned Stradivarius played by a master violinist. The only question is is it Gollum or the Ring wielding the bow.
What do you think: was it mercy, malevolence or plain old hobbit toughness that is most responsible for saving the quest at the Black Gate and turning it towards Cirith Ungol?
I’m thinking it wasn’t The Stinker or The Slinker, but The Stinger.
Of course, Gollum’s first suggestion is not to seek a different entrance into Mordor, but rather to turn back. He pleads with Frodo to keep the Ring and be kind to Smeagol. Or to give it back to Smeagol and go away to safe places. We know that Frodo can’t do this, of course. But I’m just curious to know what people think would happen if Smeagol did get the Ring back here?
They’d live happily ever after until the end of their days. (Which might not be too long…)
In the short term?
Like Bourne and Marie at the end of The Bourne Identity (2002).
In the long term?
Like Bourne and Marie at the beginning of The Bourne Legacy (2004). The suspense of how the vengeful Ring undermines its former master’s plans against the West would be a thriller unto itself.
Frodo, however, is determined. He refuses Gollum’s entreaty, and it is then that Gollum reveals that there is another way into Sauron’s realm.
And I bet if Frodo had nixed that way too Gollum would have suddenly remembered a third way, then a fourth, and so on. There’s probably dozens of ways into Mordor if one only took the time to look for them, and Gollum has. Gandalf is thus blameless for not specifying a way in because the question of how to enter Mordor is probably as simplistic as asking how to enter Grand Central Station: through the nearest door.
Sam smells a rat. He suspects that Gollum may be acting under orders from Sauron.
Just like Gollum is acting under orders from Frodo. And no doubt orders from the Ring.
He muses that in any case Gollum would “give us away rather than be caught helping us.” Do you think Gollum would, if such a choice fell to him?
Gollum has talked his way out of the Enemy’s clutches at least twice before. I’m sure he could convince them to let the hobbits go too:
Gollum: These aren't the hobbitses you're looking for.
Orc: These aren't the hobbitses we're looking for.
Gollum: It can go about its businesses.
Orc: You can go about your businesses.
Gollum: Move along.
Orc: Move along... move along.
The only danger for a third time would be that he’d reveal his Jedi, er, that is, Ring mind-control powers to Frodo and Sam. Busted!
What would cause him…
If he thought he could convince their captors to let him go with the Ring:
Gollum: Hallo, my good man! Glad to see you! I’m Secret Agent Triple X Gollum of His Evilness' Secret Service. Thanks for your help in capturing two of Mordor’s Most Wanted!
Orc: Let’s see your identification.
Gollum: [with a small wave of his hand] You don't need to see my identification.
Orc: We don't need to see his identification.
Gollum: Now I’ll just take this little trinket off this nasty little hobbits’ neck and go deliver it to its master. Pip-pip and cheerio! I’ll make sure you’re all mentioned in dispatches.
Orc: Gee, thanks Secret Agent Triple X Gollum!
or prevent him from doing so?
The thought that their captors would take the Ring to Sauron.
Frodo decides to trust Gollum. Is he being soft-hearted, as Sam fears?
Deagol’s trust, Sauron’s intelligence, Aragorn’s self-confidence, Gandalf’s wisdom, the Mirkwood Elves’ kindness, Sam’s protectiveness, Frodo’s soft-heartedness, a confidence man zeroes in on a mark’s strength and turns it into a weakness.
But, having made his decision to trust Gollum, Frodo then delivers a stern warning to his guide that I think is one of the key moments of this chapter:
“You swore a promise by what you call the Precious. Remember that! It will hold you to it; but it will seek a way to twist it to your own undoing. Already you are being twisted. You revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. Give it back to Smeagol you said. Do not say that again! Do not let that thought grow in you! You will never get it back. But the desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. You will never get it back. In the last need, Smeagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Smeagol!”
Very un-Frodo-like.
These are very strong words.
Satanic even!
And [Satan] brought [Jesus] to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence
-Luke 4:9
And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
And rose up, and thrust [Jesus] out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
-Luke 4:28-29
Did Gollum die for Middle-earth’s sins?
What I’m really wondering when I read them is what prompts them.
Something bad.
Is the Ring’s power beginning to reveal itself here?
Besides Gollum, the ground, the air, the surrounding area, and all those people on the other side of those gates, it’s the only bad thing around here.
Is the Ring itself the reason why Frodo is telling Smeagol to back off?
By putting Evil words into Frodo’s mouth Gollum knows it’s the Ring talking. And it’s telling Gollum to be cool and play along with the suckers until the right time comes along.
Frodo has previously tried to give the Ring away to Aragorn (at the Council) and to Galadriel.
Not to mention Gandalf.
Are those days gone forever now?
Later he kinda sorta tries to give, if not the Ring, at least the Ringquest, to Faramir:
"Would you have me come to Gondor with this Thing, the Thing that drove your brother mad with desire? What spell would it work in Minas Tirith? Shall there be two cities of Minas Morgul, grinning at each other across a dead land filled with rottenness?"
"I would not have it so," said Faramir.
"Then what would you have me do?"
-The Forbidden Pool
Has Frodo changed?
No, which is good evidence that’s not Frodo talking.
Would he have the strength of will to give the Ring up to anyone now?
Yes, but I think he’d then be driven to get it back.
Why or why not?
The Ring wants to get back to Sauron. (Or maybe back to Gollum.) So given the right recipient the Ring’s will to leave would overcome Frodo’s will to keep it. But then without the Ring’s opposition to keeping it, Frodo would be free to try to take it back.
Or perhaps Frodo’s motivation here is genuinely benevolent.
The con man’s greatest con is getting their victim to believe they’re friends.
(Think about how politicians and used car salesmen act so friendly until they get you to cast your ballot or sign their contract, then it’s “Stop bothering me with your problems!”)
Is he trying to save Smeagol?
Sure.
Why or why not?
Smeagol’s big puppy-dog eyes. They affect Bilbo, Gandalf, Mirkwood Elves, even Sauron himself. They never fail to inspire pity in the hardest of hearts.
Any other ideas?
Gandalf hints that anyone who sees Gollum feels pity:
'I am sorry,' said Frodo. 'But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum.’
'You have not seen him,' Gandalf broke in.
-The Shadow of the Past
On the other hand Gandalf also hints that the Ring can induce feelings of pity, then exploit them:
”Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity…”
-ibid
Tolkien then tells us that “Frodo’s threat had quite unnerved [Gollum]”. He explains that the speech “abashed” and “terrified” Gollum, who, like Sam, is quite surprised by the sternness of Frodo’s words, having previously taken him as a bit “blind”. What do you make of this incident?
Makes it pretty clear who’s talking. I doubt Gollum would be too freaked out at anything Frodo said, but if it’s the Ring talking we can totally understand Gollum’s panic.
What can we take from it about each of these three characters?
I’d say four characters.
Frodo and Gollum are near puppets of the Ring. Sam is distracted by the Frodo/Gollum dynamic while the true dynamic involves the Ring.
Again, one wonders if Gollum and the Ring dying together in a Lovers’ Leap into the Cracks of Doom is exactly what the Ring wanted.
******************************************
Fimbrethil, Warrior Entwife
Sez: "Why don't we terraform Earth? It's closer."
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jan 20 2016, 10:32pm)
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Al Carondas
Menegroth
Jan 20 2016, 11:48pm
Post #30 of 65
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let's skip ahead to Faramir warning Frodo about Gollum's impending treachery which Frodo remained blithely ignorant to, and now I'm back to, "Why did a mere Man see it when Frodo did not?"
We learn in the next book that Faramir is not a mere man when it comes to reading minds. He has a special gift for it, as his father has:
"[Denethor] is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try."
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Menegroth
Jan 21 2016, 12:58am
Post #31 of 65
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It’s amazing how, after so many years of lonely isolation, Gollum is so easily able to manipulate people. Right! He's truly enigmatic. Thanks for pointing out all those examples.
One wonders if the Ring misses Gollum. Perhaps the supposedly providential tripping into the Cracks of Doom was more along the lines of a leap by two doomed lovers? I love that. It's a fascinating, thought-provoking idea. Although, I feel like the Ring would choose Sauron over all other masters, since it is Sauron's will that lives in the Ring. Yet, perhaps if Gollum suddenly decide to leap for it, the Ring wouldn't have time to stop him. And maybe Gollum would reason that it would be better to die with the Ring than have it taken from him.
I don't know. But it is fun to think about.
"Good Morning!"
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oliphaunt
Menegroth
Jan 21 2016, 1:31am
Post #32 of 65
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Again, one wonders if Gollum and the Ring dying together in a Lovers’ Leap into the Cracks of Doom is exactly what the Ring wanted.
"If this is to end in fire, then we will burn together!”
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Al Carondas
Menegroth
Jan 21 2016, 3:13am
Post #33 of 65
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Moving along without actually going anywhere
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I love the following exchange between Frodo and Gollum:
"And did you escape out of the darkness, Smeagol? Were you not rather permitted to depart, upon an errand? That at least is what Aragorn thought, who found you by the Dead Marshes some years ago."
"It's a lie!" hissed Gollum, and an evil light came into his eyes at the naming of Aragorn. "He lied on me, yes he did. I did escape, all by my poor self. Indeed I was told to seek for the Precious; and I have searched and searched, of course I have. But not for the Black One. The Precious was ours, it was mine I tell you. I did escape."
Frodo felt a strange certainty that in this matter Gollum was for once not so far from the truth . . .
Wretch though he is, Gollum still has his pride it would seem. And in the final analysis, I don't think anyone can doubt that Gollum escaped. Whatever Sauron's plans were for Gollum, they have failed. Gollum is free and has no intention of ever going back. (In fact, it would seem that the only person Gollum has ever failed to give the slip is Strider. Maybe that is another reason for the evil light in his eyes.)
Gollum begrudgingly reveals that his alternative entrance into Mordor is likely to be guarded, but refuses to name it.
Then we are given a glimpse of Gandalf, who, we are informed, is at that moment parleying with Saruman in Isengard. Frodo wishes that he had Gandalf's counsel to guide him, and then his thoughts take him back to when he first accepted this quest in his own sitting-room in the far-off spring of another year.
This, too, reminded me instantly of The Hobbit and those many instances along his journey when Bilbo thought of his cozy little hobbit hole.
The day drags on, and soon the Nazgul appear again. Four of them. Does anyone know what errand they might be on here? Do they sense the Ring?
Shortly after the Nazgul wing back to Mordor, we hear the approach of a southern army. Frodo and Sam loosen their swords and crouch down, waiting. I find it interesting that it is Gollum that creeps up to take a look out of the hollow. Is this a significant detail? Is Gollum made of sterner stuff than the two hobbits? Is this further evidence of his taking the reins of the quest?
Gollum slips back and gives his report, adding the following poignant observation:
"Always more people coming to Mordor. One day all the peoples will be inside."
That always kind of depresses me when I read it.
It is then that we are treated to perhaps the oddest event in the entire chapter: Sam's recital of the Oliphaunt poem. I can still remember how I smiled at my first reading of this passage. I first thought that Tolkien was playing a little joke - turning the tables by making reference (in a fantasy novel) to a creature that is real to the reader but only a fantastic tale to the characters. I never expected actual Oliphaunts to show up later on. How did this episode strike you when you first read this chapter? I'm wondering: did you envision Oliphaunts to be the same size as elephants, or did you immediately envision them as a larger ancestor? And is this another assertion of indomitable Hobbit good cheer - something along the lines of Merry and Pippin smoking and joking amid the wrack of Isengard?
The chapter then ends with Frodo's decision to follow Gollum. The chapter is short on action, but long on interaction with these three characters. And perhaps one should consider the Ring a fourth character here, as darkstone points out. It does seem to be asserting itself more prominently as it nears its birthplace. I see significant character development. What do you see? What impression did this chapter make on you? What was your favorite part or most memorable image from the chapter? Did your view of any of these characters change? Did you like Sam's poem? Is Gollum beginning to get on your nerves, or are you beginning to like poor Smeagol? (after all, everyone but Aragorn seems to fall into that trap) What do you make of our trip to the Black Gate?
"Good Morning!"
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Jan 21 2016, 5:37am
Post #34 of 65
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More answers Thursday, I hope--
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You're doing a marvelous job with a rather tough chapter to lead, Al Carondas! Keep it up, and I hope I can catch up with you.
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enanito
Nargothrond
Jan 21 2016, 6:13am
Post #35 of 65
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This was an evil choice. Which way should he choose? And if both led to terror and death, what good lay in choice? Once again, choice and free will are stacked up against fate and doom. Why even bother with making a choice if things are destined to turn out badly, or if one really isn't in control no matter what choice is made?
I like how Frodo is mired in indecision with no way out... until the spell is broken with Sam's innocent recital of a Shire rhyme. Although Frodo realizes no help is coming, he is willing to make a choice all the same. Tolkien again shows the power that simple folk can have in times of great distress.
One wonders what a hobbit in the company of those Noldorian Elves could have done to dissuade them from following their dark path towards doom...
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oliphaunt
Menegroth
Jan 21 2016, 1:21pm
Post #36 of 65
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"Always more people coming to Mordor. One day all the peoples will be inside."
That always kind of depresses me when I read it.
I think it’s a great Gollum line. He doesn’t want evil to happen (he’s not a servant of Sauron, or on Sauron’s side), but he doesn’t see a way out.
It is then that we are treated to perhaps the oddest BEST event in the entire chapter: Sam's recital of the Oliphaunt poem.
I never expected actual Oliphaunts to show up later on.
I did! (Oliphaunt has been following along since the marshes, but no-one noticed)
How did this episode strike you when you first read this chapter? I'm wondering: did you envision Oliphaunts to be the same size as elephants, or did you immediately envision them as a larger ancestor?
“As big as a house” - does that refer to a hobbit-size house or a man-size house? I’m thinking man-size house. That would be at least fifteen feet, say, at the shoulder. That’s a lot bigger than the biggest elephant.
And is this another assertion of indomitable Hobbit good cheer - something along the lines of Merry and Pippin smoking and joking amid the wrack of Isengard?
Unlike Frodo and Gollum, Sam remains optimistic. He’s lightening the mood to help relieve Frodo’s stress. Merry and Pippin do the same thing, yes. This is far more bravery than foolishness.
Is Gollum beginning to get on your nerves, or are you beginning to like poor Smeagol? (after all, everyone but Aragorn seems to fall into that trap)
Both. He’s such a mass of inconsistencies and curious thoughts, I find him very entertaining. Although I’m sure being with Gollum in person was a very different experience.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Jan 21 2016, 3:51pm
Post #37 of 65
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Ah, tune in to the upcoming discussion of The Forbidden Pool to find out....
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We should definitely take careful note of what Fara-mere does or does not notice about Gollum: is he able to 'read' Gollum, or is Gollum able to shut him out?
We're bound to talk about all that in the Pool chapter.
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All chapters now taken - but we'll be planning Book V soon!
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Jan 21 2016, 6:50pm
Post #38 of 65
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"The only way big armies can come"
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Gollum says the Black Gates are "The only way big armies can come". And yet we later see a big Army emerge from Minas Morghul.
Is Gollum just wrong, do you suppose, or there a loophole in that Minas Morghul isn't technically within the old borders of Mordor?
Maybe heavy gear (such as Grond) has to come that way - can't see them getting that over Cirith Ungol.
Oh, and I note that, as is the case in Minas Morghul, Sauron has taken over abandoned Gondorian fortifications...
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All chapters now taken - but we'll be planning Book V soon!
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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enanito
Nargothrond
Jan 21 2016, 7:34pm
Post #39 of 65
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There's big and then there's big
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So great an army had never issued from that vale since the days of Isildur's might; no host so fell and strong in arms had yet assailed the fords of Anduin; and yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth. So yeah, the Minas Morgul host was definitely big, although it seems other Mordor-armies are even bigger.
My sense is that Gollum's comment is actually referring to attacking armies, not Mordor armies. Granted he says that Sauron himself will soon come through that way, but the rest of the paragraph, and his preceding comments, all are respect to the fear of attack that Sauron has. So "The only way big armies can come" seems to mean that the hosts of the West could only attack him that way.
With all the traffic along the Ithilien road, possibly Minas Morgul was filled in large measure via the road to its West, and not via Mordor from the East. Obviously you could access the top of the Tower of the Moon from the entryway that Sam later on finds, and quite possibly that's the way this immense host trickled bit-by-bit into Minas Morgul.
So although a mighty host issues from Minas Morgul, it seems likely that this force was gradually built up over time, and in that way is different than the armies Gollum might be referring to that would arrive in force at the borders and then try to force their way though.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 21 2016, 8:09pm
Post #40 of 65
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Gollum says the Black Gates are "The only way big armies can come". And yet we later see a big Army emerge from Minas Morghul.
Is Gollum just wrong, do you suppose,....
Yes, Gollum seemes to be the source of all sorts of questionable information, such as:
'He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering.
-The Black Gate is Closed
But some wonder if Sauron actually has the ability to take form yet.
And those of the Wise who questioned him also seem to have contradictory information. For example:
"Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken," said Aragorn.
-The Departure of Boromir
Yet:
'Do not bandy words in your insolence with the Mouth of Sauron!' he cried. 'Surety you crave! Sauron gives none.'
-The Black Gate Opens
There's also other false information spread about, like Rohan selling their horses to Mordor.
It seems Gollum may have been set loose not only in hopes of him finding the ring, but also to pass on disinformation to the West. Aragorn, Gandalf, and Faramir all might be acting on information that Gollum gave them that may not be true.
Needless to say, if Gollum assures Faramir that big armies can only come out the Black Gate then Gondor is going to be very unpleasantly surprised by one coming out of Minas Morgul.
******************************************
Fimbrethil, Warrior Entwife
Sez: "Why don't we terraform Earth? It's closer."
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jan 21 2016, 8:13pm)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 21 2016, 8:46pm
Post #42 of 65
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******************************************
Fimbrethil, Warrior Entwife
Sez: "Why don't we terraform Earth? It's closer."
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Jan 21 2016, 10:52pm
Post #43 of 65
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Gollum and Sauron as different kinds of evil
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"Always more people coming to Mordor. One day all the peoples will be inside."
That always kind of depresses me when I read it.
I think it’s a great Gollum line. He doesn’t want evil to happen (he’s not a servant of Sauron, or on Sauron’s side), but he doesn’t see a way out.
ThAts very thought-provoking. Yes, maybe Smeagol just doesn't see a way out.
Also, we discover later that you don't have to travel to Mordor to end up inside. But that's Book VI.
I'm not sure I can see Gollum as anything other than evil (those babies in their cradles, and the throttled goblins). But he seems to be different to Sauron. Perhaps the old "alignment " system - invented for the game Dungeons and Dragons, I believe- is helpful here? There's thorough explanation here http://easydamus.com/alignment.html , but a quick summary might be that it categorises characters according to their reaction to two things.
There's law, including tradition- do they feel bound by it (lawful), neutral to it, or do they disobey and flout authority if they safely can.
Then there's good or evil - especially about attitudes to killing. Does the character struve to avoid killing (good), weakly prefer to avoid it (neutral) or have no compunction about it (evil)?
Three possibilities along each scale gives 3x3=9 combinations
Sauron has an evil program. He prefers evil to good on principle, and spent aeons working in an evil heirarchy. So he's probably lawful evil. It's a bit harder to judge the lawful thing when a character is answerable only to themselves, so maybe Wormtongue is a better example of the lawful evil type. He's evil, but in a very controlled calculated way. And presumably he has loyalties and relies on Saruman to do his bit of the bargain once there's an empty throne, no Rohirrim left, and a slave bikini for Eowyn (eeew).
Gollum is more neutral evil: he does evil without much remorse, but wants to be left to get on with it. His vision of a satisfying life, we learned last chapter, is some personal revenge, and fish suppers. No big program involving the conquest of good. I agree he's not a zealot in the cause of evil, and Sauron's victory woukd t suit him: it would mean having to obey someone
To finish the set, I see or s as chaoti evil: they go out of their way to trample and break things, and their uncontrollable urges to violence reduce their usefulness and can only be kept in check by threatening more violence.
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All chapters now taken - but we'll be planning Book V soon!
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Al Carondas
Menegroth
Jan 21 2016, 10:56pm
Post #44 of 65
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Vote of confidence greatly appreciated 
"Good Morning!"
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 21 2016, 11:14pm
Post #45 of 65
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I have the Power of Command, and I command you all... to bring me fish!
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That's a really interesting model of 'alignment' based on two axes of 'lawfulness' and 'evilness'. I'm not sure it works well with Tolkien's ideas about morality in LotR.
For instance, I remember Paul Kocher's rejection of the idea that Sauron stands for evil, or as you say, "prefers evil to good." Kocher comments that Sauron is not fighting for the triumph of evil, he's fighting for the triumph of Sauron. The evil he does is for that purpose, not the other way around.
Sauron's egomania of course leads to evil deeds, indeed an evil universe should he succeed. As for the second axis in the 'alignment' box, Sauron is not at all about killing the rest of the world. As Gollum notes, he doesn't want everyone dead, he wants everyone inside Mordor. Tolkien is not really concerned with killing as the indicator of evilness, so much as he is concerned with the uses and abuses of personal power. I don't know Dungeons and Dragons but if the game doesn't get that then all the stuff about it being influenced by Tolkien seems somewhat shallow.
As I have long read LotR, the ultimate crime in Middle-earth is to compel another being against that being's will. That is why the Ring is not a super-weapon that defeats armies like some death ray; instead it gives its wearer what Boromir accurately realizes is the Power of Command. Others must do what the Ringlord commands, whether they will it or not. That leads rapidly to the moral corruption of the wearer, and to an infinite realm of evil, like Mordor. Remember the words of the extremely evil Witchking to Eowyn: he will not kill her; rather he will enslave her mind, which is a far worse fate, and a far worse sin.
Reading the Ring, and Gollum's enslavement to it, through a lens of Power rather than Evil is, I think, more profitable - if only because Power is actually a lot easier to define than Evil is.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Al Carondas
Menegroth
Jan 21 2016, 11:14pm
Post #46 of 65
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Fight the good fight every day
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This was an evil choice. Which way should he choose? And if both led to terror and death, what good lay in choice?
Once again, choice and free will are stacked up against fate and doom . . . Although Frodo realizes no help is coming. he is willing to make a choice all the same.
Great point. And to quote another Canadian power trio: "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." So, Frodo doesn't like any of the choices that lay ahead of him, but he at least refuses to make the choice to turn back.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Menegroth
Jan 21 2016, 11:45pm
Post #47 of 65
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For instance, I remember Paul Kocher's rejection of the idea that Sauron stands for evil, or as you say, "prefers evil to good." Kocher comments that Sauron is not fighting for the triumph of evil, he's fighting for the triumph of Sauron. The evil he does is for that purpose, not the other way around. But I would say that fighting for one's triumph at the expense of everyone else is the very definition of evil. I think Tolkien's idea of evil is the same - a failure to subjugate onself to Eru.
Gollum also says: "Don't take the Precious to Him! He'll eat us all, if He gets it, eat all the world."
Thus, Sauron, I would say, would be described as Lawful Evil. He wants order in the world, but his order, with himself at the top of the pyramid and everybody subject to his will. And death to all who resist. Faramir, perhaps, would be an example of a Lawful Good character. He wants order, too, but recognizes that his place is not above all others. Eru would be on top of Faramir's pyramid.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Menegroth
Jan 21 2016, 11:57pm
Post #48 of 65
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Yes, that is what I meant, of course! (dratted autocorrect).
Sam remains optimistic. He’s lightening the mood to help relieve Frodo’s stress. Merry and Pippin do the same thing, yes. This is far more bravery than foolishness. Nice!
"Good Morning!"
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Jan 22 2016, 10:50am
Post #49 of 65
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I agree with you both (and Paul Kocher) - evil and coercion, thoughts about the Ring
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Coercion does seem to be an important feature of evil in Tolkien's works. But I suppose there we mean unlawful coercion: Theoden, for example, expects his subjects to obey, though is willing to be disobeyed if there's a good reason for it. But he doesn't expect neighbouring kingdoms to obey him.
Sauron, as you say is out for the good of Sauron. Gollum's statement " He'll eat us all, if He gets it, eat all the world" is actually Sauron in a nutshell - the endless need to dominate. I can see the argument that this makes him like an orc on a vaster scale - a figure that would be chaotic evil just wanting what he wants, at any cost. Or maybe we should conclude that this alignment scheme doesn't work all that well, and collapses when one probes too far. That's OK if we have an interesting discussion while testing it to destruction . My reference to the scheme does point out that it has some problems within the game (a game which I know very little about). Perhaps part of the problem is using the terms 'good' and 'evil', with all their baggage. Clearly there is also a lot of interpretation in this - if you google 'alignment of Tolkien characters' (or similar) you can find several attempts at populating the 3 x 3 chart, with some differences in where characters have been put.
However, I can think of an argument that makes it work to post Sauron as Lawful Evil, which is where instinctively I think he should go. I start by thinking of the concepts of Law and Good. As Al C says "Eru would be on top of Faramir's pyramid." -I agree. I'm assuming that as prime-mover, creator and omnipotent beneficent deity of Tolkien's fictional universe, Eru is to be taken as the acme of Good and of Lawfulness. So acting according to Eru's wishes would be Good and Lawful axiomatically and by definition. Eru - as posited for God and for prime movers in theology and philosophy (I think) - is the unique origin and fount of these things. I think that we can see Sauron as having taken those properties for himself - he's set himself up as a sort of false Eru or anti Eru, such that whatever he wants is automatically Lawful in his eyes. (This of course makes him a false Eru or anti-Eru: in itself objectionable to the Lawful-Good type.)
Hence, I think , his programme to snuff out free will. Everyone and everything must be made to do as Sauron wishes.
This is a interpretation of course - I don't claim to know that Tolkien would approve of it (let alone this is what the story is supposed to mean) But if we acknowledge that and are having fun...
I also think that Sauron represents the end-state for a Lawful person taking Sauron's Ring. It's part of what makes the Ring such a wonderful literary invention. A Lawful Good person is in real danger - how convenient a tool it would be to carry out the Law (with less and less humanity, but with no less self-righteousness with every passing day). Ultimately, laws made by others are inconvenient so you do away with them - here's the problem expressed in A Man For All Seasons a play by Robert Bolt:
Alice More: Arrest him!
More: Why, what has he done?
Margaret More: He's bad!
More: There is no law against that.
Will Roper: There is! God's law!
More: Then God can arrest him.
Alice: While you talk, he's gone!
More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!
Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast– man's laws, not God's– and if you cut them down—and you're just the man to do it—do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.
Gollum isn't like that. He certainly does not seem to admire Sauron, or want to be part of his power structure of vision for the world. Nor does he want to use the Ring to arrest bad men. He seems uninterested in making plans for others - cannibalism, (or at least orcaphagy), and back in the day evesdropping, spiteful gossip, petty theft and the like are more his cup of tea. Maybe he is the end-state of using the Ring for Neutral?
~~~~~~
The Reading Room read-through of The Two Towers Book IV has started! All chapters now taken - but we'll be planning Book V soon!
week starts # Chapter # Chapter name # leader # URL of thread
03-Jan-16 # I # The Taming of Smeagol # noWizardme Part 1: http://goo.gl/wvyAOx 2: http://goo.gl/6ks0JV 3: http://goo.gl/l0iuEz 4: http://goo.gl/7ket5o
10-Jan-16 # II # The Passage of the Marshes # Oliphaunt Part 1: http://goo.gl/eUEV4u, 2:http://goo.gl/5osCOm 3: http://goo.gl/F9p2Pe
17-Jan-16 # III # The Black Gate Is Closed # Al Carondas http://goo.gl/FXwf5j
24-Jan-16 # IV # Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit # Hamfast Gamgee
31-Jan-16 # V # The Window on the West # MirielCelebel
07-Feb-16 # VI # The Forbidden Pool # Hamfast Gamgee
14-Feb-16 # VII # Journey to the Cross-roads # Mironiel
21-Feb-16 # VIII # The Stairs of Cirith Ungol # squire
28-Feb-16 # IX # Shelob's Lair # enanito
06-Mar-16 # X # The Choices of Master Samwise # Surprise Chapter Leader "End G.I. Bran"
(Easter 2016 is March 27)
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 22 2016, 1:05pm
Post #50 of 65
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I'd advise against dragging Eru into this
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Mostly because, as Tolkien makes clear in his Silmarillion prelude, every actor in the story, including Melkor and by extension Sauron, is "acting according to Eru's wishes", as you put it. So, following your thought, Melkor and Sauron, etc., "would be Good and Lawful axiomatically and by definition". Which, to me and you by the rest of your thinking, they aren't. The point of saying that Eru incorporates evil beings into his "wishes", of course, is to handle the problem that Eru, like our God, is premised as being the "creator and omnipotent beneficent deity" within whose creation some very maleficent things happen to exist.
This is an ancient chestnut of religion, ethics, philosophy, etc. and it's not really very surprising for it to come up in a discussion of Lord of the Rings, which is ultimately about, among other weighty matters, the very question of what is good and evil. The D&D alignment theory's biggest flaw, it seems to me, is that it does not question or define what good and evil are: it's sufficient for a treasure quest game, of course, but I feel it's falling apart on us the more we poke it with Tolkien.
Speaking of Tolkien, I loved your clip from A Man For All Seasons. I couldn't help but wonder when such a play was written. It smelled all over like it was from the recent era when the entire educated West was debating the proper methods for battling Evil, i.e., Nazi and Communist totalitarianism, while remaining Good, i.e., not using the enemy's methods and so becoming Evil by action, if not by intent. It reminded me not just of Tolkien, but also of Orwell and T. H. White and William Golding - gee a whole bunch of British authors from the early 1950s who fictionalized, in fantastic settings, the questions of rule, right, law, and power that had embroiled their world and their country since the 1930s.
And so I looked it up and A Man For All Seasons was first performed as a play on the BBC in... 1954.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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