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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 28 2015, 8:52pm
Post #51 of 108
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Hobbits are like potato chips....
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Gandalf’s blessing on Bill: the second blessing after Butterbur’s beer. Does Bree have a special place in the Wizard’s heart?
It’s the gateway to the Shire.
How did Bill survive the wolves?
More proof the wolves were a product of the herbs of Imladris.
Why did he go to Bree instead of Rivendell?
Ask Boromir’s horse. And if you can’t find Boromir’s horse, then you know.
The Watcher:
1. Why/how does the lake not reflect the sky?
Lots of organic and/or inorganic material suspended in the water. For example, runoff from a nearby peat bog could do it.
2. Would the Watcher have attacked them anyway, or only because Boromir’s stone in the water woke it up?
When a bowl of popcorn attacks you, you have to show it who’s boss.
3. Is Frodo the only one who sensed the Watcher's evil presence?
Probably not, but Aragorn and Boromir aren’t going to mention uneasy feelings to each other, the Dwarf is marveling at Dwarvish architecture (i.e., rock), and the other hobbits are looking for mushrooms under the Holly trees.
Did Gandalf or Legolas?
Gandalf is probably too put out at the moment, while the Elf is too busy making bunny ears behind the Dwarf’s head.
Is this due to Frodo's perceptive nature, or the Ring's influence on him, or his post-Weathertop sharpened senses?
Yes.
4. Was the Watcher a wild animal in search of a meal and hungry, but not evil?
It was just misunderstood. I’m sure if the Fellowship was friendly the Watcher would have them for dinner.
Or intelligently evil, and that’s why it attacked Frodo?
Maybe it just thought one little hobbit wouldn’t be missed. I mean the Fellowship had three more.
And how exactly did it know to attack him first: is there a photo of Frodo being circulated among evil creatures in M-earth?
I’d think “a stout little fellow” would sound delicious to a Watcher. “Taller than some” puts Frodo as the most noticeable, and “red cheeks” and “perky chap with a bright eye” points to overall healthiness, so the real question is how could the Watcher resist?
5. Was the book-Watcher more or less scary than the movie-watcher?
Book-Watcher. In my mind his tentacles have suction cups, and those tip it in his favor.
6. What's up with nature in this quest? First the Fellowship is "attacked" and defeated by a mountain, then a pack of wolves, and now a giant squid-thing. In the Old Forest they were attacked by trees. Is nature itself an enemy in M-earth, whether Sauron is behind it or not?
"All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed."
Er, wait...
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Brethil
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 1:25am
Post #52 of 108
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Now, if they all fell ill, so many problems would have been solved. //
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Should we assume this is a small, special pack of magical wargs that Sauron sent to get the Ring, or does he have hundreds or thousands of these creatures in Mordor kennels?
Maybe they’re the fell meats he feeds to fell beasts.
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 10:46am
Post #53 of 108
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So that's how you present your questions? OK.
somehow, the mountains are only sentient and hostile when you cross their outer surface and don't seem to mind you penetrating their interiors. Does anyone understand this?
That made me chuckle.
Well, you do have a point - if indeed it is Caradhras itself, and they are not taking a route through Celebdil and Fanuidhol.
But both gates pf Moria do indeed seem to open on Caradhras - if when thecome out they see the Dimrill stair coming down, I would guess they can't be far from the red mountain.
Is this a democracy?
Boromir would have it so, as all oppositions to autocratic leaders do.
Frodo accepts the idea of voting (after all, the Shire seems to be the one place in Middle-earth in which the Mayor is elected) - but tries to fix a vote at the time which Gandalf can win a majority - a common practice in parliamentary governments, which is impossible in the US.
Perhaps an American Frodo would have been driven to gerrymandering?
How do you account for this? Would he be as cautious if he were in charge, or is his dissatisfaction at being a follower causing him to be critical of authority?
Well, he was proven right then, and is right now - despite Gandalf's trying to cow him by pulling rank.
And later, at the Doors of Durin, Gandalf will revert to ad hominems to silence him.
Given that Boromir was able to travel successfully on his own to Rivendell from Minas Tirith, why doesn't he leave the Company at this point and head toward the Gap of Rohan on his own? What's keeping him here?
He was commanded to seek for the Sword that was broken.
If Aragorn goes to the other side, he can't leave.
Also, having saved the Fellowship twice by now, he feels some kind of responsibility for them.
How often does this happen in real life that a) your opponent on a position voices no blame when you fail, and b) you cites that as a reason for supporting them even though you think they're going to fail, all for the sake of honor?
Well, Aragorn is Gandalf's disciple and candidate for the throne of Gondor, not his opponent!
But yes, the way you put it is very positive; and I've never noticed that angle. Thank you!
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sador
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 1:31pm
Post #54 of 108
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Do Aragorn and Boromir ever pass up a chance to compete with each other?
Ask Aragorn why he needs to respond in kind.
Compared to Boromir's epigram, Aragorn's sounds half as good, and turns out to be non-true.
Can the Wizard do this kind of thing all the time?
Well, after the encounter with the Balrog when trying to close the door of the chamber of Mazarbul, he was spent. So I guess no, not all of ther time.
Is this what we missed when he fought the Nazgul on Weathertop?
Missed? I prefer the magic as off-stage as possible, personally.
Is this Narya doing the heavy lifting, or could Saruman and Radagast have done the same thing?
I don't think this has much to do with Narya.
Does it bother you that Gandalf's spell isn't translated, or are you able to figure out that it probably has something to do with lots and lots of fire?
Not really. Should I be bothered?
Have you ever tried it at home?
No, but the next time I have at home such a blizzard that I cannot light a fire by any other means, I'll try.
Are you surprised that Gandalf can do something this dramatically powerful, or did you expect it all along?
I don't really remember my first reading, and I supposed that back then I enjoyed this little performance far more.
Do you think they fought any wolves themselves?
Maybe Merry did. He is both the most likely, and (IIRC) the only member of the Fellowship never mentioned.
But he does show up at the Gate of Moria, so I guess he wasn't left behind.
Why could the wolves be killed yet they left no bodies behind?
Could they be killed? They could be shot at, and swords could pass through their throats and hew them, but who said anything of killing?
Do they regenerate and come back?
Yes, but as poodles.
Should we assume this is a small, special pack of magical wargs that Sauron sent to get the Ring, or does he have hundreds or thousands of these creatures in Mordor kennels?
Why Sauron? Couldn't they have been emplyed by the Mountain, or the Balrog? Saruman did.
If the wargs had killed everyone in the Fellowship, how would Sauron get his Ring back: would orcs scavenge the corpses, or would the wargs eat the corpses and swallow the Ring, obliging Sauron to cut them open or wait for their digestion and bowel movements to get back the trifle that he fancies?
No; he would go "poof" and lo and behold! They have no bodies!
Just like Legolas' arrows.
What gave them away to the wargs: the spying crebain? Gandalf lighting a fire on Caradhras? Or were the wargs just posted as guards near Moria and picked up their scent?
The smell of miruvor. They were cold, and just wanted a sip.
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oliphaunt
Menegroth
Apr 29 2015, 4:12pm
Post #55 of 108
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Given that Boromir was able to travel successfully on his own to Rivendell from Minas Tirith, why doesn't he leave the Company at this point and head toward the Gap of Rohan on his own? What's keeping him here?
The Ring
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 4:19pm
Post #56 of 108
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Welcome to the discussion, oliphaunt! //
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 5:39pm
Post #57 of 108
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Lots of suspended gunk- I agree with Darkstone: that would be the scientific reason.
Because it's creepy - would be the atmospheric reason.
I notice that mirrormere also has strange reflective properties: Frodo sees the stars reflected, but not himself. Not sure whether we're supposed to make something of there being 2 odd lakes...
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 8:35pm
Post #58 of 108
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The military higher-ups are really gung-ho on the AARs, and the only people I've heard getting in trouble are the ones trying to subvert it. Of course, that doesn't mean that Soldier Bob isn't going to suffer the consequences for gross incompetence or cowardice, but there are other avenues to punish him/her for that, and really, getting rid of Soldier Bob isn't addressing the underlying problem. Instead of blaming Soldier Bob the AAR would be concerned with learning how the system broke down and allowed an unqualified/untrained person to be placed into such a position in the first place and then how to fix it so it doesn't happen again. (For example, make sure everybody, including Soldier Bob, gets proper training.)
When I've done similar things in the business world, the requirements have been the same as Darkstone points out:
The senior people have to want to know (sometimes the Middle People really don't want the Senior People to know, because they fear Blame).
We have to work on the basis that if Employee Bob had been incompetent or unprofessional, that should already have been dealt with by standard line management methods. (If no-one has been willing to point out egregious errors before, or been able to use line management, then that's an important discovery right there!) So we presume Employee Bob did his best & if that didn't produce the expected results, we want to find out how come that happened to a sincere and competent person.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 8:43pm
Post #59 of 108
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Thanks for joining us, Oliphaunt!
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There's talk about a bull in a china shop. How about an elephant in a reading room? 
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Brethil
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 8:44pm
Post #60 of 108
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And good point: he's going to stick by that Ring.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 8:47pm
Post #61 of 108
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I later thought of the Mirrormere too, and wondered if this had something to do with water originating in Moria (or its mountains).
But I guess pollution explains the Watcher's lake not reflecting the sky, or could. I personally think the water itself was so cursed and unnatural that it couldn't do a normal thing like reflect the sky whether it was full of particulate matter or not.
I guess we'll hash out the Mirrormere mystery when we get there. We still have a Balrog fight ahead of us first, and I'm not talking just about the wizard's fight. (Functioning aerial appendages--yes or no?) 
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 8:51pm
Post #62 of 108
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So it really does have to start at the top for an AAR to work
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I've never worked for top management that really seemed worthy of being there; they were in fact usually very adept at blaming their strategic failures on their minions below them and firing them to cover their own tracks. So this is all very foreign to me, but heartening that somewhere it works, sort of like knowing that somewhere out there, there's a real Shire where people are decent and don't lock their doors at night.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 9:03pm
Post #63 of 108
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Given that Boromir was able to travel successfully on his own to Rivendell from Minas Tirith, why doesn't he leave the Company at this point and head toward the Gap of Rohan on his own? What's keeping him here?
He was commanded to seek for the Sword that was broken.
If Aragorn goes to the other side, he can't leave.
Also, having saved the Fellowship twice by now, he feels some kind of responsibility for them. Sador, you've voiced what a few others have said, that Boromir feels responsible for them. Which I will not dispute, but I'll observe that in past discussions of Boromir in the Reading Room, people generally said two things 1) he was more likeable in the movie, and 2) in the book, he was hard to get along with and not anyone's favorite, though everyone thinks he died nobly.
What I see emerging lately is that people think he's not all that selfish and feels a commitment to the group, even if they're all quite alien to him. Even hobbits are used to Dwarves, and they're not distrustful of Elves. Boromir is the one least exposed to other races and most out of his element, plus he has to travel with someone who would end his dynasty's long hold on the throne. So it says a lot about the quality of his character that though these "just aren't his kind of people," and he's adamantly opposed to Moria and really could go it alone via Rohan, that he sticks with the group for the common good. Just another point about how Middle-earth can bring out the best in people when they have the option to be not so noble.
PS. And blue's my favorite color--just can't resist.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 9:06pm
Post #64 of 108
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Well, in a real Middle-earth Conspiracy Theory
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I do wonder if Sauron hoped Gandalf would lead them into Moria and saw it as a trap all along. Thwarted by the mountain pass, hunted by magic wolves on the lands below--where else could they go? Not the only trap he had in mind, but one of them.
We need to hold a seance with Sauron's dispossessed spirit some day and get some answers from him--too many mysteries to clear up! I bet he knows what happened to the Blue Wizards too, for starters.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 9:08pm
Post #65 of 108
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Well, if they're going to use unflattering names, how about
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Dwarf Ghetto, Durin's Dump, Shortyville, or Minas Tinytown? They had a lot to choose from.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 9:22pm
Post #66 of 108
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I do love that line from Watership Down (from the sun god to the 1st rabbit):
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"All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed."
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Brethil
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 9:27pm
Post #67 of 108
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Frodo does not see himself, only stars. Durin saw himself with a crown of stars...something about the Mirrormere is both prophetic and maybe time-sensitive. I think it only shows things that are very enduring, as a prophetic vision of Durin and his crown would be. As important as his quest is, he is a small mortal in a large world, in the middle of wide swaths of time. Frodo just doesn't show up.
A watery version of the fairy-cake powered Total Perspective Vortex?
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 9:31pm
Post #69 of 108
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So are Wargs like Shelob, the cat who owns him [Sauron] not?
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Should we assume this is a small, special pack of magical wargs that Sauron sent to get the Ring, or does he have hundreds or thousands of these creatures in Mordor kennels?
Why Sauron? Couldn't they have been emplyed by the Mountain, or the Balrog? Saruman did. Gandalf calls the leader of the pack "Hound of Sauron," and I usually assume Gandalf, being not only wise but Wise, knows what he's talking about (even if the whole Moria trip seems very unWise in retrospect). Do you think the Wargs are free agents, and Gandalf is wrong to assume they're Sauron's mutts?
Caradhras seems like a free agent, but the timing is suspicious. People apparently routinely use the Redhorn Pass, and it's not called the Path of Death, and Gandalf and Aragorn are familiar with it hence they've used it before, but all of sudden it gets very hostile when the Ringbearer tries to use it. Is that really coincidence, or is Caradhras in league with Saruman or Sauron? (I just don't see Saruman controlling the mountain, despite what the movies show. His geographical reach seems far more limited.)
The Watcher could be a free agent, or working for the Balrog, or Sauron. Or hungry and it likes the smell of hobbits. What on earth (or under it) did it eat when it was deep, deep below the mountain? Usually the only things that live under mountains are tiny blind fish that I don't think would keep this big monster on a positive caloric intake.
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 9:37pm
Post #70 of 108
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Mirrormere is a mirror all to itself, isn't it? And Dwarves don't seem to have a lot of magic that we know of, though they have magic doors that open to words. Was the Mirrormere their doing, or Aule's or Ulmo's, or some other thing at work? Oh, I'm getting ahead of myself, but it's your fault for being so thoughtful and articulate and making me think some more. (See, I'd be bad at AARs. "It's Brethil's fault!") 
I think it only shows things that are very enduring, as a prophetic vision of Durin and his crown would be. As important as his quest is, he is a small mortal in a large world, in the middle of wide swaths of time. Frodo just doesn't show up. When we get to that chapter, we'll have to compare it to Galadriel's mirror. Did she know about the Mirrormere--was it her inspiration?
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 29 2015, 9:39pm
Post #71 of 108
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Take off your shoes and pull up a chair!
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 9:53pm
Post #72 of 108
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Something that has begun to bug me about Durin's Crown
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He stooped and looked in Mirrormere, / And saw a crown of stars appear, / As gems upon a silver thread, / Above the shadow of his head.
If (as Hammond & Scull suggest) it is the constellation known as "The Plough" (Or The Big Dipper, or The Sickle, in Middle-earth) showing up around Durin's head, wouldn't it look like a baseball cap worn sideways?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Apr 29 2015, 10:04pm
Post #73 of 108
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So it was Casual Day when Durin looked in the mirror?
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But I'm not sure I take all the star sightings literally in M-earth, and stars shift over time anyway. Plus there's the Corona Borealis, which means Northern Crown, which would be a better candidate than Ursa Major (though not as jaunty).
From Wikipedia:
In classical mythology Corona Borealis generally represented the crown given by the god Dionysus to the Cretan princess Ariadne and set by him in the heavens. Other cultures likened the pattern to a circle of elders, an eagle's nest, a bear's den, or even a smokehole.
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Brethil
Gondolin
Apr 30 2015, 12:54am
Post #74 of 108
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Cap on a Dwarf...?...or Dwarf on a cap...?
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Brethil
Gondolin
Apr 30 2015, 2:35am
Post #75 of 108
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A comparison of commonalities would be excellent. //
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I think it only shows things that are very enduring, as a prophetic vision of Durin and his crown would be. As important as his quest is, he is a small mortal in a large world, in the middle of wide swaths of time. Frodo just doesn't show up. When we get to that chapter, we'll have to compare it to Galadriel's mirror. Did she know about the Mirrormere--was it her inspiration?
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