|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Mar 21 2008, 3:13pm
Post #1 of 23
(3050 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Farewell to Lorien 8: Questions of Time
|
Can't Post
|
|
When I was preparing this discussion, one of the topics in this chapter that came out the most strongly to me was that of the passage of time. As I said in my first post this week, I counted at least 30 references, either literal or figurative, to time in this chapter. So to wrap things up, I would like to look at many of them. For some of these, I’m not going to have specific questions, necessarily, but would be interested in your comments.
We begin the chapter with several references to the time of decision.
“Now is the time,” he [Celeborn] said, “when those who wish to continue the Quest must harden their hearts to leave this land. Those who no longer wish to go forward may remain here, for a while…. Here those who wish may await the oncoming of the hour till either the ways of the world lie open again, or we summon them to the last need of Lorien.”
“For a long time they debated what they should do.”
“For he [Aragorn] believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth….”
Lembas is also connected with time, in that it doesn’t seem to relate to time in “usual” ways.
After Gimli eats an entire cake of lembas at one go, an Elf says, “You have eaten enough already for a long day’s march.” Likewise, “One will keep a traveler on his feet for a day of long labour, even if he be one of the tall Men of Minas Tirith.”
And lembas will last longer than other food: “The cakes will keep sweet for many many days, if they are unbroken and left in their leaf-wrappings….”
For those of you have been debating the scientific and spiritual qualities of lembas, how do you explain these connections to time?
We get in this chapter the first reference to uncertainty about the passage of time: “Their hearts were heavy; for it was a fair place, and it had become like home to them, though they could not count the days and nights that they had passed there.”
Comments? When in her second song, Galadriel refers to “years numberless” is she describing this effect, or does she just mean it’s been a lot of years?
In the first song, Galadriel includes the line, “Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea.” In saying “beyond” does she mean “before” or “more distant than” (as, for instance “West of the Moon, East of the Sun” elsewhere)? More on this song later.
One of those classic references: “She seemed no longer perilous or terrible, nor filled with hidden power. Already she seemed to him, as by men of later days Elves still at times are seen: present and yet remote, a living vision of that which has already been left far behind by the flowing streams of Time.” Then later, “For so it seemed to them: Lorien was slipping backward, like a bright ship masted with enchanted trees, sailing on to forgotten shores, while they say helpless upon the margin of the grey and leafless world.”
I omitted Celeborn and Boromir’s discussion of Fangorn from my earlier posts. But in that discussion, Boromir reports, “Of old Fangorn lay upon the borders of our realm; but it is now many lives of men since any of us visited it, to prove or disprove the legends that have come down from distant years.” Celeborn advises him, “…do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know.” Does Fangorn fit into the issues of time raised in this chapter? If so, how?
When they drink the cup of farewell, Galadriel says, “And let not your heart be sad, though night must follow noon, and already our evening draweth nigh.” Compare and contrast what’s happening with the Elves at this time with what is happening with the Fellowship.
Aragorn has one of his kingly moments when he receives the Elessar, “and it seemed to them that many years of toil had fallen from his shoulders.” Is this just one of a pattern of moments when he suddenly appears regal, or is there more to it?
Gimli promises that his gift from Galadriel will be “a pledge of good will between the Mountain and the Wood until the end of days.”
Although foretelling may not be a direct reference to time, nonetheless it is certainly connected. Galadriel tells Gimli, “I do not foretell, for all foretelling is now vain: on the one hand lies darkness, and on the other only hope. But if hope should not fail, then I say to you, Gimli son of Gloin, that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion.”
Galadriel’s second song is of course, in Quenya, “the ancient tongue of the Elves beyond the Sea.” Is that particularly relevant in this context?
Back to the “years numberless”: Tolkien tells us in an appendix that a “yen” is not in fact a year, but actually 144 years, so Frodo’s translation is not quite right here. What does this add to the poem?
Throughout this chapter, two metaphors for time are used: golden leaves, and flowing water. I’ve already cited a couple of these, but here’s a more complete list (I may still have missed some, partly because I can’t decide if some of the references to the River in the chapter may be thought of both literally and metaphorically.):
An iffy one, but it goes with the image: “Here and there golden leaves tossed and floated on the rippling stream.”
“There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years.”
“The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day; / The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away.”
“…that which has already been left far behind by the flowing streams of Time.”
As the Fellowship departs: “the Elves of Lorien with long grey poles thrust them out into the flowing stream, and the rippling waters bore them slowly away….Lorien was slipping backward, like a bright ship…sailing on to forgotten shore, while they say helpless upon the margin of the grey and leafless world.”
“Ai! Laurie lantar lassi surinen, yeni unotime ve ramar aldaron!” (Ah! like gold fall the leaves in the wind, long years numberless as the wings of trees!”
Finally, the last paragraph of the chapter. This paragraph is so evocative that I couldn’t get myself to abbreviate it in any way: “So the Company went on their long way, down the wide hurrying waters, borne ever southwards. Bare woods stalked along either bank, and they could not see any glimpse of the lands behind. The breeze died away and the River flowed without a sound. No voice of bird broke the silence. The sun grew misty as the day grew old, until it gleamed in a pale sky like a white pearl. Then it faded into the West, and dusk came early, followed by a grey and starless night. Far into the dark quiet hours they floated on, guiding their boats under the overhanging shadows of the western woods. Great trees passed by like ghosts, thrusting their twisted thirsty roots through the mist down into the water. It was dreary and cold. Frodo sat and listened to the faint lap and gurgle of the River fretting among the tree-roots and driftwood near the shore, until his head nodded and he fell into an uneasy sleep.”
So why is time such a big deal in this chapter? How would you characterize time in Lothlorien, and how does it compare with time in the rest of the world?
|
|
|
Laerasëa
Dor-Lomin
Mar 21 2008, 10:49pm
Post #2 of 23
(2566 views)
Shortcut
|
ok, as for "time in general" in Lorien...
The way that I've thought about it is that Lorien is a place where time seems to sort of stop. While I haven't really looked for time references in other chapters, I'm going to bet that 30 is a larger number than usual- and this is the chapter where the fellowship is leaving Lorien. Upon entering, they have barely escaped Moria, where they have just lost Gandalf (or so they think, but it's all the same to them right now), the hobbits are far from their home where they would be at peace, and you could look at it, maybe, as if time has not been kind to them so far. Lorien could maybe be looked at as a place where time is taken away from the fellowship, where they can rest from everything it's burdened them with. But upon leaving the utopian-like forest, they are beginning to brace themselves with having to think about time again, and also reality.
But I think that both Celeborn and Galadriel are warning the fellowship against getting too used to the "timelessness" of Lorien- Celeborn says that it's ok to stay, but only "for a while", and Galadriel talks about the "long years numberless" in a way in which I believe suggests her fatigue with all the years that she, an elf who by nature loves preservation, has remained in Lorien, or even ME. As for the leaves and the river, i think that it is relevant that even in Lorien, the leaves still fall from the trees, and the river still runs through; I think that it supports Celeborn and Galadriel's warning that despite the illusion of timelessness (there's GOT to be a better word for that), time is still passing, and they can't stay in Lorien forever. C & G also probably know this fairly well, since the three rings for the Elves (one for Galadriel) that Sauron made were given with promises of prosperity and preservation; Galadriel has learned from Sauron's deceit, I think, so she is warning the fellowship that while Lorien may seem like a timeless haven, there is really no such thing on ME, and they still have to go on.
So, basically the references to time grow as the fellowship nears nears their departure of the forest, simply because they have to think about it again, maybe?
|
|
|
Modtheow
Menegroth
Mar 22 2008, 1:27am
Post #3 of 23
(2656 views)
Shortcut
|
Wow! What a lot of material to work with! I agree with you – the subject of time is also what most stands out to me in these chapters. I was especially interested in how water works literally and figuratively in the whole Lothlórien episode that covers three chapters. The waters are literal details of the geography of the place, but they also suggest more than that: the company enters the land by crossing a stream, Nimrodel, and in crossing this boundary, they feel cleansed and refreshed, as if they are entering a new state of mind. Then they cross the Silverlode, a boundary that marks off the inner heart of the land, the secrets of the Naith, "or the Gore...for it is the land that lies like a spearhead between the arms of Silverlode and Anduin the Great." Crossing the Silverlode also marks a change: Frodo feels that "he had stepped over a bridge of time into a corner of the Elder Days, and was now walking in a world that was no more." This meeting of the Silverlode and Anduin is a crossroad where the company has to decide which path they are each going to take, and heading out on the great river towards their fates is another step that they can take only when they are psychologically ready to leave this land. So, though Lothlórien is not literally an island, it feels like one, marked by river borders that work both literally and figuratively to describe the experience of entering and leaving this place. (In fact, the more I think of it, the more inclined I am to think of the "deep fosse" that we were discussing in an earlier chapter as probably having water in it, just because it forms a boundary around Caras Galadhon, and all the other boundaries have been made of water so far in Lothlórien.)
And figuratively, Lothlórien is like an island, an image used by Haldir: "We live now upon an island amid many perils...." Around Lothlórien, the waters symbolize the passage of time: as Galadriel says in her song, "The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away," creating an image of how water takes things away in the course of time. A reference a few paragraphs later to the "flowing streams of Time" uses the imagery of water explicitly to refer symbolically to the passage of time. In these two examples, used to describe Galadriel and Lothlórien, the river goes on past where she is, leaving her and her land behind. This also reinforces for me the image of an island that is not flowing with the stream, just as Lothlórien and Galadriel resist the usual flow of time.
However, from the perspective of people who do not live in Lothlórien but who experience time in the usual fashion, the flowing river, with them on it, runs past things that they can’t hold on to. Legolas talks about the world in these "after-days" as one in which we find and lose, "as it seems to those whose boat is on the running stream." And the image becomes poignant as they look back to Galadriel: "their eyes watched her slowly floating away from them. For so it seemed to them: Lórien was slipping backward, like a bright ship masted with enchanted trees, sailing on to forgotten shores, while they sat helpless upon the margin of the grey and leafless world." They’re helpless because the stream of time keeps taking them forward, but not Galadriel. Even when she comes to meet them for the last time in her swan boat, she is sailing in the opposite direction to the Company, who are practising paddling up the river while Galadriel and Celeborn sail proudly down the stream towards them.
Lothlórien is like an island that hinders this flowing stream because in this place, the regular experience of time has halted. I think I’ve said in a previous post that it seems to me that all times co-exist on Lothlórien. When Aragorn has a vision of the past, it’s as if he is experiencing it again in the present – in fact, Gimli remarks at the end of the chapter that he has heard that for Elves "memory is more like to the waking world than to a dream." And Frodo feels that "in Lórien the ancient things still lived on in the waking world"; he feels as if he’s entered a "timeless land that did not fade or change or fall into forgetfulness." The present time in Lothlórien seems endless; the fellowship find it difficult to keep track of the days, and they feel like things are both ancient and new, both winter and spring all at the same time. And then there are visions of a possible future that can also be had in this place as well.
But I agree with laerasea that even though this place has resisted the usual experience of the passage of time, Galadriel and the others know that it cannot last and that eventually Lothlórien will be subject to the passage of time as well. For me, this accounts for the elegiac tone that I think dominates the Lothlórien chapters. This whole episode is suffused with feelings of regret, loss, memory, yearning, and a feeling of the inevitability of change, even if there are still wonderful moments of present peace to be had there: "night must follow noon, and already our evening draweth nigh." We are always reminded of how the streams and rivers run down to the Sea, evoking the sea-longing of the Elves and a feeling of being in exile from their home on this "Hither Shore," as Galadriel calls it in her song. The elegiac mood is further reinforced by the fact that laments for Gandalf are composed while they stay here, remembering him and mourning his loss. I find the whole thing very much in the mood of Anglo-Saxon poems like "The Seafarer," which are elegiac contemplations of past joys and present losses by an exile figure who is wandering at sea and thinking about the future.
In no way have I answered all of your questions or even dealt with all of the great examples you’ve provided – I like how you’ve connected the imagery of the golden leaves with the river, for one thing – but I’ve said enough, if anyone has even read down to this point. I promise I’ll shut up now!
|
|
|
Saelind
Menegroth
Mar 24 2008, 2:26am
Post #4 of 23
(2507 views)
Shortcut
|
|
A few comments from a wayward poster
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
When in her second song, Galadriel refers to “years numberless” is she describing this effect, or does she just mean it’s been a lot of years?
*She means both. The years are numberless to her. Since she is immortal, time means very little since everything blends together. I imagine events like birthdays and anniversaries lose their meaning after a few thousand years. The effect she speaks about is losing Paradise. She was born and come of age in Valinor but through rebellion lost it. The loss of Valinor would weigh all the heavier after 3 Ages of death and destruction.
In the first song, Galadriel includes the line, “Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea.” In saying “beyond” does she mean “before” or “more distant than” (as, for instance “West of the Moon, East of the Sun” elsewhere)? More on this song later.
*Well it was before the Sun and Moon so you could say beyond in that way. But also Valinor is now removed from the circles of World and can only be found by the straight road. She wonders if she would still be able to get to Valinor at all.
When they drink the cup of farewell, Galadriel says, “And let not your heart be sad, though night must follow noon, and already our evening draweth nigh.” Compare and contrast what’s happening with the Elves at this time with what is happening with the Fellowship.
*They preparing for the end. Either Frodo will succeed and the Lothlorien will fade or Frodo will fail and they will be at Sauron’s mercy. Either way, the life that they have now will no longer exist.
Aragorn has one of his kingly moments when he receives the Elessar, “and it seemed to them that many years of toil had fallen from his shoulders.” Is this just one of a pattern of moments when he suddenly appears regal, or is there more to it?
*Both. It is part of the pattern of showing his underlying royalty but it also the effect of Lothlorien that he is able to recall an earlier time so perfectly that he appears to relive it.
Galadriel’s second song is of course, in Quenya, “the ancient tongue of the Elves beyond the Sea.” Is that particularly relevant in this context?
*Lothlorien is a bit of Valinor on Middle-earth. And as a Noldor, Galadriel’s native tongue would have been Quenya. She is also singing a song of exile, something that Frodo will come to understand.
So why is time such a big deal in this chapter? How would you characterize time in Lothlorien, and how does it compare with time in the rest of the world?
*The demarcation of time for the elves is not hard and fast like the rest of the world. To quote scripture: “A thousand years are as a watch in the night.” The law of thermodynamics about entropy still holds but they are moving towards it very slowly. This chapter best illustrates the difference between elves and other races. The way elves experience time causes them a unique grief that separates them from others.
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 24 2008, 5:35am
Post #5 of 23
(2526 views)
Shortcut
|
Being immortal, the Elves do not measure time in absolute units, for absolute units are meaningless to a creature that can potentially live forever. Instead, they measure time in ages: periods of time in which the world was different from the way it is now, and in which it was different from that in other ages. So, if you asked an elf to draw a timeline for you, she easily could, and would put events into a well-ordered succession, but she would be quite unlikely to know how much time came in-between.
You bring up Fangorn; I do not know if Tolkien edited in that line before or after he "encountered" Treebeard some chapters hence. We do know, from his letters, that it did not occur to Tolkien that Merry and Pippin would encounter Treebeard until he set his pen to paper for that scene. But Celeborn and Galadriel do know the truth about the ancient legends and myths, because they saw them, first-hand. They just don't count the time in years, or lives of men, or any other units, for that matter, except that "this happened before that".
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
Entwife Wandlimb
Menegroth
Mar 24 2008, 6:05am
Post #6 of 23
(2521 views)
Shortcut
|
|
A time and a place for immortality
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
For those of you have been debating the scientific and spiritual qualities of lembas, how do you explain these connections to time?
Hmm. I wish I had read a bit of this lembas discussion. I had rather mundanely taken it to mean that the lembas was sort of vacuum sealed (like a jar of mayonnaise) and once you opened it, it would reintroduce bacteria and start to decay.
When in her second song, Galadriel refers to “years numberless” is she describing this effect, or does she just mean it’s been a lot of years?
In the next chapter, Legolas says that the elves do not count the years so I thought she meant she didn’t know how long.
Does Fangorn fit into the issues of time raised in this chapter? If so, how?
The elves are rather like embalmers – the curse of immortality in a dying lnad. The Ents are also ancient, but they age with the world. The Elves don’t age, but that is unnatural. The Ents age rather like men, only slower – trees personifying both the wisdom and the senility of the aged.
Aragorn has one of his kingly moments when he receives the Elessar, “and it seemed to them that many years of toil had fallen from his shoulders.” Is this just one of a pattern of moments when he suddenly appears regal, or is there more to it?
I think we are given a glimpse of the promise of restoration that is an undercurrent in LotR. The king will return and much that is wrong will be put right. Aragorn as a self-doubting ranger is unnatural; Aragorn as Elessar, the King is right.
Finally, the last paragraph of the chapter. This paragraph is so evocative that I couldn’t get myself to abbreviate it in any way: “So the Company went on their long way, down the wide hurrying waters, borne ever southwards. Bare woods stalked along either bank, and they could not see any glimpse of the lands behind. The breeze died away and the River flowed without a sound. No voice of bird broke the silence. The sun grew misty as the day grew old, until it gleamed in a pale sky like a white pearl. Then it faded into the West, and dusk came early, followed by a grey and starless night. Far into the dark quiet hours they floated on, guiding their boats under the overhanging shadows of the western woods. Great trees passed by like ghosts, thrusting their twisted thirsty roots through the mist down into the water. It was dreary and cold. Frodo sat and listened to the faint lap and gurgle of the River fretting among the tree-roots and driftwood near the shore, until his head nodded and he fell into an uneasy sleep.”
Here we get the impression that Frodo, when leaving Lorien, is entering a dream. What is real and what is the dream? Is his burden and the quest a nightmare, a break from reality? As Frodo awakens in Bombadil’s home, in Rivendell, here and in the House of Healing, there are these Wizard of Oz moments where you have to question which bits are in black and white and which are in color. How real is Frodo’s experience? Is the Frodo who claims the Ring at Mt. Doom the real Frodo, or is it only nightmare Frodo? There are similar themes in the Matrix, where one has to reconsider what is real. The concept goes back to Plato and the cave, as well as the Bible (e.g. Ephesians 1:18, Isaiah 6:10, Mt 13:15).
So why is time such a big deal in this chapter? How would you characterize time in Lothlorien, and how does it compare with time in the rest of the world?
Well, death and immortality are big themes in LotR and Lothlorien is where we explore some options. We see that immortality in a dying world is not a good plan in the long run, but we see that the Hobbits and the men, who are “meant” for a different type of immortality, take to it rather nicely. Immortality in a wholesome, undying land for wholesome people is natural and wonderful. We don't get that in Lothlorien, though. Lothlorien is only a poor copy of the real thing.
I think a lot of this is related to understanding how we related to an immortal God ("who was, and is, and is to come"). How did an immortal and timeless God plan a world affected by time? What is real, from his perspective and from ours? How do our prayers affect a God who knows the future, who is outside of time? How does our time on this earth relate to the after-life? So, time is rather a big deal, in general, especially to one who is constantly reminded of the scarcity of time as his parents, friends, and comrades died relatively young.
|
|
|
Isis
Nevrast
Mar 24 2008, 10:49pm
Post #7 of 23
(2476 views)
Shortcut
|
There are two time concerns here: Lorien fading back into the mists of time (I don't have anything to add to the discussion on that), and the Fellowship reaching decision time. The contrast between bidding farewell to the fading past and having to make choices that directly influence the future is keen. The Fellowship is fast coming to the point where hard decisions must be made. Decisions they have been merely putting off by stepping 'outside of time' during their spell in Lorien. When a deadline looms, time seems to speed up. I'm sure we've all experienced that. At such times (ah. I feel like the nights who say ni. I've said 'it' again), we become keenly aware of the swift passage of time, that time is running out, that the hour is nigh... The hand on the clock seems to turn faster, the leaves fall more swiftly. Doubtless, Frodo and Aragorn (and Boromir) would like more time to weigh their choices (although, whether any of them would make a different decision given extra time or just make the same decision based on instinct, who knows) before they make up their minds. But when you have a tough decision to make, time will always run too fast.
To Generalise is to be an Idiot To Particularize is the Alone Distinction of Merit - General Knowledges are those Knowledges that Idiots possess.
|
|
|
squire
Gondolin
Mar 25 2008, 1:38am
Post #8 of 23
(2605 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"Long-years numberless" is poetry; the Elves did actually count them
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
If I remember my rambles through the various Annals of Aman and Beleriand in HoME, the Elves do indeed count time in absolute units, based on the earth's orbit around the sun (or the Sun's flight over Arda, if you will). Tolkien's concession to their immortality was to decide that their base unit was 144 solar years, the yen as Menelwyn pointed out in her post. Your Elf, unless very badly informed, should certainly be able to put quite solid numbers in the intervals of her timeline -- or at least as solid as Tolkien ever got around to making them. Ditto for Galadriel and Celeborn, who are not the innumerate hunter-gatherers you make them out to be.
As for Frodo's translation of Galadriel's song, I remember hitting up against this one a while ago, and finally realizing that a hyphen was omitted from the English translation -- whether by Tolkien or the typesetter is not clear. The proper translation is not "long years numberless" as printed, but "long-years numberless". Elsewhere (the Appendices?) Tolkien renders his Quenya word yen/yeni as "long-year", and that is certainly what is meant here. But the Elves, obviously, must also have had a word for the (to them) relatively insignificant solar year, because we know they had words for their six "seasons" of each solar year (see the LotR Appendix on Calendars). As Legolas says, time is not quantitatively different for the Elves, it's just experienced or remembered differently because they live so long.
Along with the logical argument I present here, I also refer to The Road Goes Ever On songbook that Tolkien produced in the 1960s. In it Galadriel's song is set to music, and Tolkien provides pretty detailed notes on the translation and meaning of the Quenya lyrics. The English lyric to the song distinctly shows that yeni is to be rendered as "long-years"!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 26 2008, 1:39am
Post #9 of 23
(2457 views)
Shortcut
|
You are absolutely correct that the Elves use calendars to record important dates so that they can understand history. But unimportant events, such as the day of birth of a particular individual, is not something I think they care about. Does Galadriel remember her age exactly? Does she know her calendar day of birth? Do C&G celebrate their anniversary on an annual (or multi-annual) basis? I doubt it.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Mar 26 2008, 1:52am
Post #10 of 23
(2458 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thanks for that hyphenation thing
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I knew about yen/yeni--it is in the Appendices--but not that the hyphen was actually omitted. That's a very helpful thing in that translation, and from what you say, probably not a "Frodo mistake" in translation, if you will. Thinking about this in terms of yen does seem to emphasize the poetic aspect of the line: there haven't actually been all that many yeni. The Third Age lasted about 21 yeni, and the Second Age about 24. Even if you weren't literally counting the yeni, 45 is not all that "numberless". Yeah, we might include the First Age too, but the First Age (post-Trees, and talking about years during the Time of the Trees gets confusing) was not long at all.
|
|
|
squire
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 3:00am
Post #11 of 23
(2494 views)
Shortcut
|
Certainly there's room for debate on the questions you raise here: how attentive to "anniversaries" were the Elves? Did they keep track of their own ages?
I don't think we know enough about the Elf-mentality to speculate about this.
Or... here's a thought that just came to me. One argument in your favor, perhaps, is that Hobbits definitely keep track of their birthdays, as do Men; and the Elves draw numerous distinctions between themselves and these curious mortals. In fact, from the author's point of view, Hobbits are anti-Elves, mundane counterbalances to the semi-divine First Children, and so their self-centered emphasis on Birthdays might well suggest that Tolkien thought Elves did not celebrate (or perhaps even remember) their birthdays.
But... let's do a little research. Right, here we are: as far as Elven memory for personal affairs goes, Tolkien in the years after LotR proposed that since Elves bear children for a full solar year, the date of birth is almost the same as the date of begetting. He then adds that "it is the day of begetting that is remembered year by year." So this is not within the LotR tradition directly, of course, but it does suggest that birthdays (or rather conception days), at least, are remembered by the Elves. A little later he says that Elves do remember the sexual phase of their lives (in their early years, for child-bearing purposes). It "remains in their memory as the most merry in life". Not so specific about dates this time, but suggestive that their wedding anniversary might well be memorable to Galadriel and Celeborn, etc. (both quotes from HoME X, Morgoth's Ring, pp. 212-213.)
Interesting stuff!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 26 2008, 4:06am
Post #12 of 23
(2462 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I hesitate again to bring up LaCAE
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
merely because Tolkien was so different a man when he wrote it that I am not sure that any of it can be applied to LotR.
However, I have further problems with this. For example, suppose that a recently married Elven couple, like a young Human couple, has sex (on average) once every day or two. Unless the children are born exactly one year after conception, then the couple might not recognize which of their sexual experiences they would necessarily be responsible for the birth - expecially considering that there can be a lag of up to three days in which a sperm is viable inside of a female's body. So unless the Elves have sex only once a week or so, or Elven women are completely aware of exactly when they are fertile and it is a smaller than 24-hour time window, there is no way an Elven couple would know this!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
squire
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 10:18am
Post #13 of 23
(2486 views)
Shortcut
|
and suggest that the passage we are discussing implies that your objection is not a problem - and the reason for that is that Elves have intercourse to procreate and only to procreate and that in Tolkien's la-la land, the act results in pregnancy every time. Or, to be perhaps slightly less inhibited, I'll allow that the female does know exactly when an act of love will result in her pregnancy, and thus has a basis for knowing which night it was that they will remember as the baby's "conception day" according to Tolkien's idea.
As he explicitly declares elsewhere in this essay, Elves are capable of sex their entire lives, but just are not interested after those first few blissful, baby-making, years. Beings with that kind of libido can certainly be imagined as not following the randy model of the "young Human couple" that you postulate.
I realize this suggestion may not be consistent with one Elf story or another that he had written in his earlier years (I can think of one right off the top of my head). But as you and I have both noted already, this late essay kind of stands off by itself!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
|
|
|
Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Mar 26 2008, 2:57pm
Post #14 of 23
(2469 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I can't believe I'm going to reply to this.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
This may come as a surprise to you, but there are human women who are sensitive enough to actually feel ovulation taking place.
They can do the math. Some also sense a "difference" long before a pregnancy test can prove it.
I still don't think Elves need to conform to the biological laws and practices of our real world.
************************************
|
|
|
Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 26 2008, 3:16pm
Post #15 of 23
(2437 views)
Shortcut
|
I do not think that elves are all that obsessively precise. They give birth, they figure the conception probably happened a year ago, so they celebrate the conception date as the birth date except that they count age starting at conception, and so would reckon a newborn as being one year old. (Although Eowyn of P.W. has a good point--when even human women can be this sensitive, elves surely would understand their own bodies still more vividly.)
As for elves making some moral decision to only have sex to procreate, I see nothing to support that in Tolkien's writings. Everything quoted in regards to that merely indicates that their passions run hottest when fertile, just like any species. They simply don't get all bent out of shape when the passions fade away, running around buying viagra and other remedies in a panic, as though they carried the very foundation of their identities between their legs. Perhaps human beings find such a transition alarming because it reminds them of their mortality, but elves have no such concern.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 26 2008, 3:32pm
Post #16 of 23
(2449 views)
Shortcut
|
You are indeed correct that there exist some human women who are capable of observing their ovulatory times, and it only stands to reason that if some Humans can, then all Elves should.
However, this explanation alone is not enough: Elven women would still need a fertility window of less than one day, and in addition, Elven men would need to have sperm that would not be viable for more than one day. We know Elves to be infertile, but given their otherwise equal or superior physiology to Humans, it seems a stretch to say that their reproductive tissues are actively inferior to their Human counterparts!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 26 2008, 3:39pm
Post #17 of 23
(2461 views)
Shortcut
|
If Elves behave like this, of course, a problem arises between the marriages of Elf to Man. Now, all of the Men involved are either Edain or Dúnedain, not garden-variety Humans, but at the time he was writing LaCAE, I get the distinct impression that Tolkien was thinking that the High Men are just like real people, only that they were virtuous. As Dreamdeer has pointed out, abstinence except when actively trying to procreate is hardly a requirement of the Catholic Church, so if we accept this as Tolkien's explanation for the question his essay poses, then either these were some very exceptional Elves in their sexual tastes, their marriages were quite disappointing for their mortal spouses, or Tolkien was entertaining some non-Catholic ideas about the sinfulness of sexuality even in marriage.
If Tolkien's Elves are this asexual, then it almost requires that the Dúnedain be the same, and presumably lesser Men as well: nobody in Tolkien's world, Elf, Man, Orc, Hobbit, or Dwarf will engage in sexual activity except to procreate! Unfortunately, for us, this leaves marriage in Tolkien's fantasy an unimaginable and uninviting prospect for us. Should we be happy for Aragorn and Arwen (or, for that matter, Sam and Rosie!) or not?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 26 2008, 3:48pm
Post #18 of 23
(2465 views)
Shortcut
|
For those of you have been debating the scientific and spiritual qualities of lembas, how do you explain these connections to time?
Sodium benzoate. Even lembas needs preservatives. Plus you can also use it to polish silverware. And it’ll kill Queen Berúthiel’s cats dead, dead, dead.
We get in this chapter the first reference to uncertainty about the passage of time: “Their hearts were heavy; for it was a fair place, and it had become like home to them, though they could not count the days and nights that they had passed there.”
Comments?
“Those were the days”. Galadriel as Mary Hopkin.
When in her second song, Galadriel refers to “years numberless” is she describing this effect, or does she just mean it’s been a lot of years?
Mixing minuvor and Dorwinion wine will do that to you.
In the first song, Galadriel includes the line, “Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea.” In saying “beyond” does she mean “before” or “more distant than” (as, for instance “West of the Moon, East of the Sun” elsewhere)?
"Rocky Jones, Space Ranger in Beyond the Sun" (1954). The same year LOTR came out! Coincidence?? I think not!!!
Does Fangorn fit into the issues of time raised in this chapter? If so, how?
It fits in more with the issues of the isolation of the Good cultures of Middle-earth. They must all band together to fight for individualism.
When they drink the cup of farewell, Galadriel says, “And let not your heart be sad, though night must follow noon, and already our evening draweth nigh.” Compare and contrast what’s happening with the Elves at this time with what is happening with the Fellowship.
Each Elf is having to make the decision to stay or leave Middle-earth. Frodo is having to make the decision to stay or leave the Fellowship. Indeed, the members of the Fellowship will soon face the decision to stay or leave Frodo.
Aragorn has one of his kingly moments when he receives the Elessar, “and it seemed to them that many years of toil had fallen from his shoulders.” Is this just one of a pattern of moments when he suddenly appears regal, or is there more to it?
I think it’s more the emergence of his Elvish blood than any royal blood.
Gimli promises that his gift from Galadriel will be “a pledge of good will between the Mountain and the Wood until the end of days.”
Yeah, right. Just like the Nauglamír.
Galadriel’s second song is of course, in Quenya, “the ancient tongue of the Elves beyond the Sea.” Is that particularly relevant in this context?
“I do not foretell, for all foretelling is now vain: on the one hand lies darkness, and on the other only hope. But if hope should not fail, then I say to you, Galadriel daughter of Finarfin, that you shall sail to Valinor, yet over you Valinor shall have no dominion.”
Back to the “years numberless”: Tolkien tells us in an appendix that a “yen” is not in fact a year, but actually 144 years, so Frodo’s translation is not quite right here. What does this add to the poem?
Well, "a gross of years" takes me back to "a gross of hobbits".
And we can either assume Tolkien made a mistake, or else he actually knew what he was doing. In which case we have further evidence of the conceit that this is a found manuscript and that a not quite knowledgable Frodo wrote it.
Throughout this chapter, two metaphors for time are used: golden leaves,….
Many leaves are heart shaped. The heart shape is thought to have derived from the shape of the female sex organ. Thus the falling leaves could represent the diminution of feminine power in Middle-earth. (Galadriel is leaving, Eowyn is the last Shieldmaiden, Arwen will be the last Elven Queen, etc.)
…and flowing water.
The association of flowing water with time goes all the back to Heraclitus whose philosophy of the ever living fire strangely echoes Gandalf as servant of The Secret Fire, Wielder of The Flame of Anor, and of course possessor of Narya.
So why is time such a big deal in this chapter?
Tolkien is trying to finagle his bet with C.S. Lewis about writing a time travel story.
How would you characterize time in Lothlorien,…
It’s SFT: Standard Faerie Time.
…and how does it compare with time in the rest of the world?
In the real world time marches on.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 26 2008, 7:25pm
Post #19 of 23
(2440 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Another place where concepts collide
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
All of the evidence that Tolkien's races engage in sex only to procreate comes from his later writings, written post-LotR (often well-post LotR). There is plenty of evidence in LotR and especially before LotR that actively refutes Tolkien's races having sex only to procreate!
The collision between the fading of young adult desires and immortality presents another unsolved problem with Elven behavior and psychology. Honestly, I don't think Tolkien really thought about what immortal beings would be like, mainly on account of his failure to take into account demographics. Put simply, Elves are like a really long-lived species of tree: they are not immortal, because they can be killed, but they don't readily die of age, which creates the situation that Elven age demographics follows an exponential decay function rather than the convex-up curve that distinctly mortal creatures like Humans do. An Elf who is a hundred years old has no better and no worse chance of surviving another hundred years than an Elf who is one thousand.
So what do long-lived trees do reproductively? They keep reproducing until they die. Of course, Elves are not trees: Elves have parental care of their children not unlike Humans do, and this probably is in part the reason for menopause in Humans: grandparents are useful in raising their children's children. But given that Elves have indefinite lifespans, I see no reason why an Elven couple could not or should not enter into another reproductive cycle once their grandchildren are themselves adults.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
squire
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 8:31pm
Post #20 of 23
(2480 views)
Shortcut
|
The reason why "an Elven couple could not or should not enter into another reproductive cycle once their grandchildren are themselves adults" would have to be that Tolkien says so, I should think.
If you accept, as you say, that they live forever, which is impossible in real life, why not accept the other rules of existence that Tolkien gives them, especially since the rules are not physically impossible to imagine? It seems to me that Tolkien in Lives and Customs of the Eldar is not just indulging in some anti-sexual fantasy. He is helping to limit an Elven population explosion by at least restricting reproduction to about two children per couple for the entire couple's immortal life span.
Yes, even that growth curve is still not reflected in Middle-earth's histories. Of course, they do seem to fight a lot of wars with a lot of fatalities, but back in Valinor it must be getting crowded. But surely it beats all those immortal Elves having kids every two centuries.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 26 2008, 10:45pm
Post #21 of 23
(2433 views)
Shortcut
|
In Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, Tolkien says that the desire to procreate goes away as a couple ages, but not the desire to engage in sexual activity - although he also explicitly state that the couple is not physically as close in other ways also.
However, regarding immortality, quite simply, Elves are not immortal. If they truly were immortal, then any means of procreation that they might have would lead to their utterly overpopulating the universe unless said means of procreation fell below replacement levels. However, the fact remains: Elves can die, not by age or pestilence, but by injury, and in a place like Middle Earth which is not a perfectly peaceful place, such injury and therefore death by injury is inevitable. In the light of this, unless the Elves have some regenerative ability, potentially exponential, they will eventually become extinct, even if the levels of danger they face are very low.
Nor does the only one breeding cycle rule work to prevent overpopulation in Valinor, if Valinor is truly peaceful. If Elves were to reproduce exactly at replacement rates in Middle Earth (and so become extinct), their population in Valinor would still approach infinity.
Basically, this is the bottom line: life, at least such as we can imagine it, cannot exist without death.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
ElanorTX
Dor-Lomin
Mar 27 2008, 11:29am
Post #22 of 23
(2466 views)
Shortcut
|
that I knew I was pregnant within a few hours of conception. And our daughter was born on precisely the 268th day following.
In some of Ursula Leguin's stories she postulates a race that conceives in the 'ordinary' way but only by mutual consent and with complete mental control.
This may come as a surprise to you, but there are human women who are sensitive enough to actually feel ovulation taking place.
They can do the math. Some also sense a "difference" long before a pregnancy test can prove it.
I still don't think Elves need to conform to the biological laws and practices of our real world.
"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."
|
|
|
|
|
