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Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Mar 17 2008, 12:05am
Post #1 of 10
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Farewell to Lorien 1--The Edge of Doom
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Welcome to this week’s discussion of “Farewell to Lorien.” I expect to do a series of posts of varying length today through Thursday, then wrap up with what will probably be a lengthy post about issues of time in this chapter on Friday. Time is a major theme in this chapter; I counted over 30 references to it either literally or figuratively.
The chapter begins with the Fellowship meeting Celeborn and Galadriel once more. Celeborn informs them that they now must make the choice whether to go on or remain: “Now is the time… when those who wish to continue the Quest must harden their hearts to leave this land. Those who no longer wish to go forward may remain here, for a while. But whether they stay or go, none can be sure of peace. For we are come now to the edge of doom.”
1. What does Celeborn mean by “the edge of doom”?
Although Boromir at least is determined to go to his home, Aragorn remains uncertain, and even suggests that Gandalf did not know what he was going to do at this point.
2. Did Gandalf have a plan? If so, what would he have planned? Even without a plan, what might he have chosen at this time? Even if Gandalf did have a plan, is Aragorn constrained to do what Gandalf intended?
Celeborn says that their route now lies along the River Anduin, and points out the dangers of both sides of the River. He points out that “the straight road of the Quest lies east of the River, upon the darker shore.”
3. Discuss the connotations of “the straight road.”
At this point, they don’t have to choose which side of the River they will take, because they can actually sail on the River itself. Several members of the Fellowship know how to sail, and Merry points out that he is among them.
4. What could Merry contribute to the sailing? Does he contribute anything?
5. Journeying on the River allows them to postpone at least one choice for the moment. Is this at all symbolic?
Despite their uncertainty, Galadriel tells them that “maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet.”
6. Is this true? What amount of free choice does each member of the Fellowship have at this point? Are their paths destined?
The Fellowship then has a private meeting where they discuss their various options. Aragorn is uncertain; Frodo won’t say anything; the rest for the most part want to go to Minas Tirith with Boromir and avoid the journey to Mordor.
7. Why do they want so much to avoid the main Quest? Why are they afraid all of a sudden? Is this at all related to them being fated to split?
Concerning Aragorn’s uncertainty: “For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring.”
8. If the dream was a summons, then who did the summoning, and why was Aragorn summoned indirectly rather than directly? If he feels that he cannot give up the Quest now, how does he choose otherwise later? What does it mean that he has received Gandalf’s burden?
Boromir’s thoughts: “If you wish only to destroy the Ring…, then there is little use in war and weapons; and the Men of Minas Tirith cannot help. But if you wish to destroy the armed might of the Dark Lord, then it is folly to go without force into his domain; and folly to throw away.” Then, realizing his slip: “It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean…. It is a choice between defending a strong place and walking openly into the arms of death.”
9. Compare Boromir’s thoughts here (aside from the “throwing away” issue) with the strategy ultimately chosen by Aragorn and Gandalf at the Last Debate.
10. Frodo interprets Boromir’s “folly to throw away” as a reference to the Ring. It’s probably a safe assumption that Frodo is right. (Is it?) Why has Boromir suddenly changed? Did he ever really accept the Council’s decision to destroy the Ring?
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 17 2008, 2:47pm
Post #2 of 10
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1. What does Celeborn mean by “the edge of doom”?
It’s his favorite soap opera.
Although Boromir at least is determined to go to his home, Aragorn remains uncertain, and even suggests that Gandalf did not know what he was going to do at this point.
Nonsense!
2. Did Gandalf have a plan?
“Fly, you fools!”
If so, what would he have planned?
Rendezvous with the Eagles at Emyn Muil and then fly in fast and furious. Catch Mordor’s air force on the ground and drop the load down the pickle barrel before they could scramble. Why do you think the Eagles showed up at the Morannon? They were already in the area, still waiting for the Fellowship!
Even without a plan, what might he have chosen at this time?
Well, fire would definitely have played havoc with Shelob’s cave full of webs.
Even if Gandalf did have a plan, is Aragorn constrained to do what Gandalf intended?
Aragorn is in command. It’s all his baby now.
Celeborn says that their route now lies along the River Anduin, and points out the dangers of both sides of the River. He points out that “the straight road of the Quest lies east of the River, upon the darker shore.”
3. Discuss the connotations of “the straight road.”
The straight road is the obvious road. It’s also the shortest and thus fastest road. So even if the Enemy knows where they’re going, if they’re fast they can still make it.
I note that Boromir does suggest cutting west to the Entwash from Sarn Gebir, then into Gondor, which is not a straight road.
At this point, they don’t have to choose which side of the River they will take, because they can actually sail on the River itself. Several members of the Fellowship know how to sail, and Merry points out that he is among them.
4. What could Merry contribute to the sailing?
He can lend a hand to paddling and steering, same as Gimli:
“’Look to the boat! She is too low in the water with all this baggage, and the Great River is swift. I do not wish to drown my grief in cold water.’ [Gimli] took up a paddle, and steered towards the western bank, following Aragorn's boat ahead, which had already moved out of the middle stream.”
Does he contribute anything?
Obviously Merry paddles during those times when Boromir is otherwise engaged:
“Merry and Pippin in the middle boat were ill at ease, for Boromir sat muttering to himself, sometimes biting his nails, as if some restlessness or doubt consumed him, sometimes seizing a paddle and driving the boat close behind Aragorn's.”
5. Journeying on the River allows them to postpone at least one choice for the moment. Is this at all symbolic?
"Wherever we want to go, we go. That's what a boat is, you know. It's not just a keel and hull and paddles. That's what a boat needs. But what a boat is... what this grey cockle-boat boat really is... is freedom."
As for rivers, one can associate them with life, purification, baptism, and so on. But I’ll go with a literal “stream of consciousness” symbolism. The river represents Frodo’s frantic mixture of calm, anxious, and frightened thought processes leading up to his decision at Amon Hen to leave the Fellowship and enter Mordor alone.
Despite their uncertainty, Galadriel tells them that “maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet.”
6. Is this true?
“The road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.”
What amount of free choice does each member of the Fellowship have at this point?
“And I must follow, if I can.”
Are their paths destined?
‘Still round the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate,
And though I oft have passed them by,
A day will come at last when I
Shall take the hidden paths that run
West of the Moon, East of the Sun. “
The Fellowship then has a private meeting where they discuss their various options. Aragorn is uncertain;
Er, you sure this isn’t movie-Aragorn? No, wait. Never mind. Movie-Aragorn was very certain: “We cross the lake at nightfall. Hide the boats and continue on foot. …That is our road.”
7. Why do they want so much to avoid the main Quest? Why are they afraid all of a sudden?
It's the long voyage down the Anduin, the stream of consciousness. Each had a very long time to reflect on their fears and doubts and now that the time is here they're in a funk. That's why sergeants never give their soldiers the time to think. Keep them busy. Wear them out, so when they stop to think, they fall asleep.
Is this at all related to them being fated to split?
They've been in separate boats, so they haven't had as much social interplay as they would in marching. They've been isolated. So, yeah, that's part of it.
Concerning Aragorn’s uncertainty: “For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring.”
8. If the dream was a summons, then who did the summoning,…
Well, if the good guy Maia wanted Aragorn to take charge of the Fellowship, then obviously the summoning was done by a bad guy Maia: Sauron.
…and why was Aragorn summoned indirectly rather than directly?
Sauron didn’t know where Isildur’s Heir was, or if he even existed. Just plant a bugs in a few ears and everyone is doing Sauron’s dirty work for him. Everyone is looking for Isildur’s Heir, Narsil, and the hobbit with the ring. Suckers!
If he feels that he cannot give up the Quest now, how does he choose otherwise later?
He trusts to Frodo’s decision.
What does it mean that he has received Gandalf’s burden?
He’s taken up the role of advisor and manipulator. He’s barely involved in Frodo quest into Mordor. He just gave him a little nudge over the river.
Boromir’s thoughts: “If you wish only to destroy the Ring…, then there is little use in war and weapons; and the Men of Minas Tirith cannot help. But if you wish to destroy the armed might of the Dark Lord, then it is folly to go without force into his domain; and folly to throw away.” Then, realizing his slip: “It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean…. It is a choice between defending a strong place and walking openly into the arms of death.”
9. Compare Boromir’s thoughts here (aside from the “throwing away” issue) with the strategy ultimately chosen by Aragorn and Gandalf at the Last Debate.
Well, Aragorn and Gandalf do go with force into his domain. Just not enough force. I take it more an ironic prescience of Boromir’s own “folly” in fighting the Uruks in an obviously futile attempt to save Merry and Pippin. Boromir learns, or more probably is reminded of, the nature of sacrifice.
10. Frodo interprets Boromir’s “folly to throw away” as a reference to the Ring. It’s probably a safe assumption that Frodo is right. (Is it?)
Sure.
Why has Boromir suddenly changed?
Like Frodo, the journey down the Anduin reflects his own stream of consciousness ending in his decision at Amon Hen to take the ring. (Sometimes too much time to think is a bad thing.)
Did he ever really accept the Council’s decision to destroy the Ring?
He said he did, so I believe he did. It’s just that even the most firmly held decisions are subject to change. Look at Aragorn and his decision to go to Minas Tirith. Flexibility is a good thing. Usually.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 17 2008, 4:07pm
Post #3 of 10
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The chapter begins with the Fellowship meeting Celeborn and Galadriel once more. Celeborn informs them that they now must make the choice whether to go on or remain: “Now is the time… when those who wish to continue the Quest must harden their hearts to leave this land. Those who no longer wish to go forward may remain here, for a while. But whether they stay or go, none can be sure of peace. For we are come now to the edge of doom.”
1. What does Celeborn mean by “the edge of doom”?
The point when everyone's decisions forge their fate--and the fate of many besides themselves.
Although Boromir at least is determined to go to his home, Aragorn remains uncertain, and even suggests that Gandalf did not know what he was going to do at this point.
2. Did Gandalf have a plan? If so, what would he have planned? Even without a plan, what might he have chosen at this time? Even if Gandalf did have a plan, is Aragorn constrained to do what Gandalf intended?
I have always wondered about that low place in the Ephel Duath near the springs of the Poros River. Doesn't that look like a mountain pass? It does look like the long way around, but it might have been the safest route. Why did Tolkien draw the map that way, if not to leave a clue as to what Gandalf had in mind, if only he had been there to tell them? Tolkien spent some time in the Alps and knew the importance of such a feature. He also knew war, and how often the man with the plan dies before telling anybody, and how everything will then suddenly veer in a different direction under pressure; only in hindsight do the survivors later realize, "Oh! That would have been so much easier!" Yet "easy" does not good fiction make. (Not that it would have been a piece of cake, with all of those soldiers from the east marching up the road, but neither would they have encountered a giant spider.)
As for Aragorn's obligations, no, he need not have followed Gandalf's plan, had he known it. Whenever a leader dies, the next in line must follow his own judgment, because the dead cannot form contingencies for changing circumstances. But I think Aragorn at that point would have grasped at any other plan than his own. We rapidly approach the nadir of Aragorn's self-confidence.
So maybe it was just as well that Gandalf dropped out of the scene when he did. Aragorn has never been more completely on his own (though he had come close in his long life, he had always known that the wizard was around somewhere) nor ever had the stakes been so high. He has to experience that tightrope-sans-net predicament that gives one no choice but to find the heights and depths of one's abilities. This is the time that makes him fit to become King, no matter how unfit he feels.
Celeborn says that their route now lies along the River Anduin, and points out the dangers of both sides of the River. He points out that “the straight road of the Quest lies east of the River, upon the darker shore.”
3. Discuss the connotations of “the straight road.”
The most direct path. In other words, "You can fool around in Minas Tirith, putting off the inevitable, or you can get right to it and head to where you know you're supposed to go."
At this point, they don’t have to choose which side of the River they will take, because they can actually sail on the River itself. Several members of the Fellowship know how to sail, and Merry points out that he is among them.
4. What could Merry contribute to the sailing? Does he contribute anything?
Take it from experience. Having someone on board who actually knows how to row without going at cross-purposes with the main rower is a huge advantage! (Speaking as the one most likely to say, "Which end of this thing do I put in the water?")
5. Journeying on the River allows them to postpone at least one choice for the moment. Is this at all symbolic?
I'd say that they're drifting. Or maybe that the currents of their fates now already carry them.
Despite their uncertainty, Galadriel tells them that “maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet.”
6. Is this true? What amount of free choice does each member of the Fellowship have at this point? Are their paths destined?
Never underestimate the importance of the word, "Maybe"! The currents of fate are strong, and sweep away those who do not set a strong will to sail against them, but they do not have to prevail. And even those currents flow from choices made before. We create our own traps--and our own escapes.
The Fellowship then has a private meeting where they discuss their various options. Aragorn is uncertain; Frodo won’t say anything; the rest for the most part want to go to Minas Tirith with Boromir and avoid the journey to Mordor.
7. Why do they want so much to avoid the main Quest? Why are they afraid all of a sudden? Is this at all related to them being fated to split?
They fear because all of a sudden Mordor has become real to them--right there, just across the river. But I do not see their split as fated.
Concerning Aragorn’s uncertainty: “For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring.”
8. If the dream was a summons, then who did the summoning, and why was Aragorn summoned indirectly rather than directly? If he feels that he cannot give up the Quest now, how does he choose otherwise later? What does it mean that he has received Gandalf’s burden?
The powers of Valinor did the summoning, presumably Irmo, Vala of Dreams. As for why give the dream to someone other than Aragorn, a number of reasons come to mind:
1. At the time that the summons went out, Aragorn did not lead a life conducive to dream recall. He slept in danger, often with no one to watch his back, and sprang into action immediately upon waking. To have someone else dream for him under such conditions is not uncommon. Notice that Faramir had the dreams more often than Boromir, who also was under more pressure on the front lines as the more important of Denethor's sons in battle (he probably had his one dream while on leave.)
2. When a summons comes from one's own dreams, one might feel tempted to dismiss one's own interpretation as wishful thinking, or as one's dreads borrowing trouble. But when someone else crosses great distances to tell you "I dreamed I was supposed to seek the Sword that was Broken" you tend to take it much more seriously.
3. The summons also aimed to bring a son of Denethor to Rivendell. One dream thus could meet both purposes.
Tolkien does imply that the Powers that Be really would have preferred that it have been Faramir--another reason for him having the dream more often. But they had to give it at least once to Boromir; otherwise Denethor would not have taken it seriously enough to let one of his sons go. This goes to show that even the plans of the Valar can go awry where Free Will rules, and therefore no outcome is ever certain, no matter how great the power rooting for you and pulling strings might be.
Boromir’s thoughts: “If you wish only to destroy the Ring…, then there is little use in war and weapons; and the Men of Minas Tirith cannot help. But if you wish to destroy the armed might of the Dark Lord, then it is folly to go without force into his domain; and folly to throw away.” Then, realizing his slip: “It would be folly to throw lives away, I mean…. It is a choice between defending a strong place and walking openly into the arms of death.”
9. Compare Boromir’s thoughts here (aside from the “throwing away” issue) with the strategy ultimately chosen by Aragorn and Gandalf at the Last Debate.
Aragorn and Gandalf did not see any use in might of arms against Mordor, whereas Boromir has invested his entire life in hoping that might of arms could prevail. Interesting that he also sees destroying the Ring and destroying the Dark Lord as separate issues--I had not realized before that he never really believed that Sauron would fall without his Ring.
I think I understand him a little better, now. He is not the bright one in his family--all of this talk about Sauron's life-force residing in the ring goes straight over his head and makes no military sense to him--imagine some new-agers meeting with a modern-day general and saying, (with the most urgent of earnestness) "We have the enemy's ultimate weapon in our hands, and we must all bring it to his presence, link arms around it, and concentrate with all our might on thoughts of love and peace at it and him, because when we transform it, we will transform him!" (Believe me, I have friends perfectly capable of such counsel--sometimes I am, myself.) Imagine the general's reaction. Now, picture the idea coming to his head, that if he volunteers to escort these new agers to the front line, then and only then will they let him position the weapon within harm's reach of the enemy, where he could use it to full advantage.
Which makes me wonder if at least one part of Boromir's mind held this contingency-plan the entire time. Maybe unconsciously. Yet Galadriel probed so that all unconscious thoughts regarding the mission would become conscious. She had every reason to--unconscious thoughts most often sabotage our best efforts, whereas if we face our desire to run home to the Shire or to seize the Ring for ourselves, we can consciously resist and refute those ideas--as Sam did, when confronted with an all-too-real possibility that if he went forward, somebody would trash his home behind his back. He had to decide that the mission meant more than home or the Gaffer or anything. Boromir's lack of faith in the plans of elves and wizards would have come up anyway. That he had become conscious of feeling this way could have given him a chance to fight it--but in the end his desire (aggravated by the lure of the Ring itself) became too great for him.
I think the choice that sealed his fate happened when they all sat around discussing Galadriel's interrogation, and he boasted, "It need not be said that I refused to listen" to temptation. It need not be said because in fact he did not so refuse. But the moment he lied to the others (by implication) was the moment that he chose to bear the burden of his temptation alone, trying to lie it away even to himself. And that made resistence impossible.
10. Frodo interprets Boromir’s “folly to throw away” as a reference to the Ring. It’s probably a safe assumption that Frodo is right. (Is it?) Why has Boromir suddenly changed? Did he ever really accept the Council’s decision to destroy the Ring?
I believe I have already answered that above. He didn't so much change as come to know his own mind on the matter.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 17 2008, 10:37pm
Post #4 of 10
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1. What does Celeborn mean by “the edge of doom”?
I think he means pretty much the same as Galadriel when she says "the edge of a knife". "Doom" originally meant judgement or decision. It's decision time - first the Fellowship themselves have come to a decision , to stay in Lorien or go forward on the Quest. Then they will have to decide between Gondor and Mordor. Any mistake in judgement could lead to failure. But beyond this, Celeborn also foresees that there is no escape from this decision-making - soon all of Middle-earth will be put to the test.
2. Did Gandalf have a plan? If so, what would he have planned? Even without a plan, what might he have chosen at this time? Even if Gandalf did have a plan, is Aragorn constrained to do what Gandalf intended?
Gandalf flies by the seat of his pants. He acts on hunches, or on what his heart tells him. Of course, his hunches are informed by centuries of experience and acquired wisdom, but I do think that he intended to play things by ear. I think Aragorn is mostly constrained by his sense of responsibility to Frodo, and that is what he inherited from Gandalf. He doesn't know what Gandalf intended, but he does know that whatever Gandalf did, Frodo's mission would be the chief consideration. Whereas if Gandalf had still been with them, Aragorn could have left with Boromir, as planned, and gone to Minas Tirith to fight for his city.
3. Discuss the connotations of “the straight road.”
Well, normally I'd say that the reference is to the need to follow one's appointed path, without turning aside or turning back. But in this case, it's being made clear that there is an option - not everyone needs to take "the straight road of the Quest", and the decision of who will undertake which journey is to be left for later.
4. What could Merry contribute to the sailing? Does he contribute anything?
Well, not sailing exaclty (no sails!  ), but I think Merry contributes to the paddling, although I don't recall that his boating skills are mentioned again.
5. Journeying on the River allows them to postpone at least one choice for the moment. Is this at all symbolic?
Well, it's foreshadowing - they are being "torn in two". Soon they will have to separate, but for the moment they don't want to think about it.
Despite their uncertainty, Galadriel tells them that “maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet.”
6. Is this true? What amount of free choice does each member of the Fellowship have at this point? Are their paths destined?
Their paths are laid for them, but they have the free choice to take those paths or not. As Sam says later:
"The brave things in the old tales and songs, Mr. Frodo...the tales that really mattered.... Folk seem to have been just landed in them, usually - their paths were laid that way, as you put it. But I expect they had lots of chances, like us, of turning back, only they didn't. And if they had, we shouldn't know, because they'd have been forgotten."
A hero freely chooses to do the task appointed to him. He can choose not to do it, but then he won't be a hero, there won't be a story about him, and he'll be forgotten... But it's his choice!
7. Why do they want so much to avoid the main Quest? Why are they afraid all of a sudden? Is this at all related to them being fated to split?
They have never really faced this reality before - Gandalf was always very vague about what would happen further down the road. Again, I think this is foreshadowing for the big decision that will come later at Parth Galen. It was agreed in Rivendell that Boromir would go to Minas Tirith, and that Aragorn would go with him. Nothing else was really decided. Frodo keeps silent, it seems to me, because he already knows that he has to go straight to Mordor but doesn't want to be the cause of taking others into danger with him.
8. If the dream was a summons, then who did the summoning, and why was Aragorn summoned indirectly rather than directly? If he feels that he cannot give up the Quest now, how does he choose otherwise later? What does it mean that he has received Gandalf’s burden?
Providence did the summoning - Aragorn believes that it's his duty to fulfill his destiny in Gondor, which is what he intended when he left Rivendell. But he now has "Gandalf's burden", the responsibility for the main Quest, the destruction of the Ring. That was not meant to be Aragorn's path - and now he's torn between following his own path, to the Kingship and Arwen, or sacrificing himself with Frodo. In the end, he will find a "middle way", but he will be torn for a while yet...
9. Compare Boromir’s thoughts here (aside from the “throwing away” issue) with the strategy ultimately chosen by Aragorn and Gandalf at the Last Debate.
Boromir is thinking like a conventional military strategist. He wants to confront Sauon's "armed might" with all the strength that Men can muster (including the Ring, as he almost lets slip...) This conventional thinking is what Aragorn and Gandalf want to fool Sauron with at the Black Gate. If Sauron can be convinced that the Men are attacking with all the strength they have (including, Sauron must now believe, the Ring), then he will lead out his armies to confront them. But in fact, Aragorn and Gandalf are going to commit the counterintuitive "folly" that Boromir describes - to walk openly "into the arms of death", in order to assure the destruction of the Ring.
10. Frodo interprets Boromir’s “folly to throw away” as a reference to the Ring. It’s probably a safe assumption that Frodo is right. (Is it?) Why has Boromir suddenly changed? Did he ever really accept the Council’s decision to destroy the Ring?
Unlike in the movie, I don't think Boromir ever commits himself to the destruction of the Ring. He acquiesces when it's decided, but his own plans are just to go back to Minas Tirith, hopefully with Aragorn. I'd say he never was convinced about the plan (which was kept very vague at the start anyway - everyone going to Minas Tirith first might even have been one option, with a decision made from there about when and how to cross over to Mordor with the Ring.)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Mar 18 2008, 2:14pm
Post #5 of 10
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so on Merry's paddling ability
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Since everyone so far has said that Merry could have helped to row his boat, I thought I'd throw this out there. Did Merry have to use an over-sized oar (as does Frodo at the end of the FOTR movie)? Or did he have a hobbit-sized one? And if the latter, since Celeborn didn't even know until the night before the Fellowship's departure that any hobbits knew at all about handling boats, did some Elf have to spend his evening frantically carving a hobbit-sized oar?
Also, I'm no rowing expert. Assuming that Merry was indeed skilled at rowing, how would his rowing work together with Boromir's, considering the size difference? Has anyone here ever rowed together with, say, a skilled 9 or 10-year old child? Does the child's contribution really affect what the boat does? Or if it does, does the adult have to make any compensations to make things work properly?
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Kimi
Forum Admin
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Mar 18 2008, 8:23pm
Post #6 of 10
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They're going with the stream, paddling facing forward, and using single-ended paddles:
"The boats were moved and steered with short-handled paddles that had broad leaf-shaped blades".
I've done some kayaking with double blades, and last June spent a wonderful morning drifting down the Célé in SW France in a double canoe using single blades. My kayak/canoe outings have all been done with Mr Kimi, who's about ten inches taller than me, and the height difference is really not an issue.
I know the height gap is much larger between hobbits and Men, but given that we're talking single-bladed paddles, I really don't think Merry would have any difficulty. i think we can assume that Elven paddles would be wonderfully light, and might well have the virtue of fitting themselves to the hand of the wielder.
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
(This post was edited by Kimi on Mar 18 2008, 8:24pm)
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 25 2008, 6:39pm
Post #7 of 10
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The late-comer should be brief
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So I'll answer just one question:
Despite their uncertainty, Galadriel tells them that “maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet.”
6. Is this true? What amount of free choice does each member of the Fellowship have at this point? Are their paths destined?
That is the classical question of divine knowledge versus free choice. What Galadriel says is true: Eru is above time, and in his mind the paths are already laid. But that doesn't prevent them from choosing, only fills them with a sense of destiny. In the stairs of Cirith Ungol, Frodo laughs at this thought, the first laughter heard there for ages: "'Why, Sam,' he said, 'to hear you somehow makes me as merry as if the story was already written.'" Galadriel only hints at the possibility it was written already, which they are.
"For many long years I have pondered" - Galadriel
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 8:12am
Post #8 of 10
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Good point: the elves could have given the Fellowship one big boat rather than three small ones.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 8:13am
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“Why did Tolkien draw the map that way”?
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The maps were drawn by Christopher Tolkien from his father’s sketches – possibly the apparent gap is creative license on Christopher’s part. Maybe J.R.R.T. approved, but in his mind thought of the source of the Poros as just that: an apparent gap. In any case, the Poros is almost twice as far again from the Black Gate as is the Morgul Vale, a long way off course.
Aragorn has never been more completely on his own (though he had come close in his long life, he had always known that the wizard was around somewhere)…
Aragorn was twenty-five when he first met Gandalf, and had spent four years in the wilderness.
They fear because all of a sudden Mordor has become real to them--right there, just across the river.
Good point. Frodo has this very evening seen the Eye for the first time.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 8:13am
Post #10 of 10
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I’ve been canoeing with children
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…and I canoed with adults when I was a child. Certainly there a strength mismatch, but you make adjustments, and both people, the smaller and larger, contribute to the boat’s movement.
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