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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Mar 4 2008, 9:06pm
Post #1 of 19
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Lothlórien, part III: Entering Lothlórien
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3. Entering Lothlórien
The Company reaches the eaves of the forest. Aragorn hopes that the virtue of the Elves will keep them safe from the pursuit. Legolas tells the company that his own people wandered from this place long ago and guesses that the Elves living there are to be found deep in the wood. When they step forward Boromir hesitates and wants to know if there is no other way, stating that he would want to go “a plain way, though it led through a hedge of swords.. it is said (in Gondor) that few come out (of the wood) who once go in, and of that few none have escaped unscathed”.
Aragorn corrects him gently, rebuking the waning of lore in Gondor, calling Lothlórien “fair and perilous, but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them.”
A. What is the virtue of the Elves?
B. What has led the rulers and people of Gondor to distrust and fear Lórien? Could the
Elves of Lórien avoided this?
C. What do Boromir’s words and misgivings tell about his character?
Is it difficult to empathize with him?
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 4 2008, 10:42pm
Post #2 of 19
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3. Entering Lothlórien
The Company reaches the eaves of the forest. Aragorn hopes that the virtue of the Elves will keep them safe from the pursuit. Legolas tells the company that his own people wandered from this place long ago and guesses that the Elves living there are to be found deep in the wood. (I always took that to mean that they roamed more freely in the past, and that they used to visit the area more frequently, before they had their hands full dealing with orcs, wargs, zombies (or whatever it was that put the "Necro" in the Necromancer's name) and giant spiders.) When they step forward Boromir hesitates and wants to know if there is no other way, stating that he would want to go “a plain way, though it led through a hedge of swords.. it is said (in Gondor) that few come out (of the wood) who once go in, and of that few none have escaped unscathed”.
Aragorn corrects him gently, rebuking the waning of lore in Gondor, calling Lothlórien “fair and perilous, but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them.”
A. What is the virtue of the Elves?
They have many virtues, but the most relevant one might be that they have given orcs plenty of reason to fear elvish places. They might also put up some sort of magical wards that makes it hard for evil things to trespass (although not impossible. )
B. What has led the rulers and people of Gondor to distrust and fear Lórien? Could the
Elves of Lórien avoided this? Human beings have a nasty, xenophobic tendency to develop mistrust of anyone unlike themselves. Adding extreme secrecy multiplies the mistrust tenfold, even though being mistrusted in the first place tends to inspire secrecy. Besides, there is something a wee bit shady about Galadriel. The loremasters of Gondor would remember that she is the last of the Noldor elves who entered Middle Earth in rebellion against the Valar. The more ignorant wouldn't know why they mistrust the "Sorceress of the Golden Wood," but rumors might trickle down, and besides, people failing to return from her realm does tend to give one pause.
C. What do Boromir’s words and misgivings tell about his character?
Is it difficult to empathize with him?
I don't think his misgivings say anything about his character except that he has learned inaccurate information. After all, Eomer had just as many doubts. The difference comes in later, after meeting Galadriel directly. Eomer keeps an open mind about her, whereas Boromir blames her for his own dark thoughts (and therefore leaves them undealt with until too late.)
I do empathize with Boromir, because his arrogance compensates for the precariousness of his position, as defender of a country facing an overwhelming foe. It's like he's constantly giving himself pep talks to keep himself going.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Mar 4 2008, 10:44pm)
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ArathornJax
Nargothrond
Mar 5 2008, 5:32am
Post #3 of 19
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A. The Elves have many virtues that are open to mankind. First, their focus is sharper and more long term than men's. Because of their life span, they may take years to develop something, while men would forgo the same task because of their lifespan.
Elves also have fought the darkness and have a natural inclination to resist evil (but not all). Within them Elves have the desire to create, and because of their longevity the powers of their minds which increase, result in greater works of arts and other things.
B. Fear as all things do, has led to rumors and legend. The result is that since the Elves have withdrawn so to say as evil has grown (which I don't think they really did since having an Elven fortress across the river saved Gondor from many attacks from Dol Guldur) the have lost contact with the southern kingdom. I think of the plague, fell winter, and the many invasions from the east and south has cut off communication and relationships. Thus the people of Gondor fear the unknown and the legend of Galderial's power.
Could the Elves have done anything to change this? Keep communication open? I'm not sure if they felt that was in everyone's best interest. Sauron did not attack Lothlorien until the War of the Ring, and I think that shows that the strategy of keeping Lothlorien as a wild card in terms of strength worked. Imagine another army coming south out of Dol Guldur to attack Aragorn and his army at the Black Gate, or coming south and attacking after the Battle of Pelannor Fields? Things could have been different.
C. Boromir is showing his character. He heard Moria was evil, and I'm sure he may have thought "Gandalf you fool, you were warn and now your dead." So his fears came true in Moria. Combine that with what he has heard about Lothlorien and I'm sure he would rather fight through a hedge of swords than go in there. Boromir is a warrior and as such he just wants a direct route and if that means a fight, so much the better. Is it difficult to empathize with him? I don't think so. For me in many ways, he best represents all of us in reality then the rest.
" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."
J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 5 2008, 8:09am
Post #4 of 19
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A. What is the virtue of the Elves?
Although Elves do have many attributes that are superior to at least most Humans, I think that the virtue here is something else: namely, well, virtue. Elves are good. Even Thranduil in The Hobbit is basically good; yes, he imprisons Thorin's company, but that is because Thorin is insolent and obstinate, and he is not mistreated. Elves will try to be generous and just, and can be counted on to think before acting. Aragorn hopes that they will offer the Fellowship respite.
And, for the power of the Elves, well, let's just say that defensively Lórien is probably the most militarily powerful nation in Middle Earth at this time second to Mordor only, surpassing even Gondor! Boromir is safer here than in Minas Tirith, whether he knows it or not!
B. What has led the rulers and people of Gondor to distrust and fear Lórien? Could the Elves of Lórien avoided this?
Honestly, I don't think they could, or it would have destroyed them.
Elves are superior to Humans in most ways. There are a few exceptional Humans who reach Elven standards in many attributes that matter, and a few more exceptional Dúnedain, but even compared to a Dúnadan, the typical Elf is better in a number of ways.
Now, I described virtue. That is something almost all Elves have, something most Dúnedain have, and something that most Humans do not have, although they may not have depravity either (the typical Human is best described as neither good nor evil). But this means that there are Humans who are fickle, and jealous, or just wanting their own. Elves cannot coexist with Humans in such a society for sheer numbers. They have to live in their peaceful wilderness, where the less virtuous Humans cannot, for they would destroy it.
C. What do Boromir’s words and misgivings tell about his character?
Is it difficult to empathize with him?
Boromir fears that which he does not know, like most real people. He does not fear that which he does know. As a warrior, Boromir understands swords, and is not terrified of them. He does not understand magic, but he knows the Elves have it, and that scares him.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Mar 6 2008, 7:12am
Post #5 of 19
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A. What is the virtue of the Elves?
As a very old culture of long-lived people, they have developed arts that humans can't possibly understand, and so call "magic". I'm reminded of "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court", in which something as simple as a safety match was a sign of profound magic. But, most importantly, the Elves use these arts to build and maintain a beautiful land and society, entirely benign until threatened.
B. What has led the rulers and people of Gondor to distrust and fear Lórien? Could the Elves of Lórien avoided this?
The Elves are far away from Gondor, behind whatever protective shells they can manage. The Gondorians, like modern humans, fear the unknown, the distant, and the alien. Sure, the Lórien elves could have avoided it by maintaining an active diplomacy with Rohan and Gondor, but why should they? Everything to lose, little to gain.
C. What do Boromir’s words and misgivings tell about his character? Is it difficult to empathize with him?
Boromir is reacting normally to his fear of the unknown. "Better the devil you know..." Sure, Sean Bean's Boromir is more likeable than this one, but book-Boromir is behaving pretty much as anyone of his position and level of worldly knowledge would in the circumstances.
New grandson of Elizabeth, b. 2/25/2008
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 6 2008, 8:41am
Post #6 of 19
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A. What is the virtue of the Elves?
I think this is the word "virtue" used in its old sense. From the OED:
1. a. The power or operative influence inherent in a supernatural or divine being. Now arch. or Obs.
So I'd say it's not any deliberate or personal virtuousness of the Elves themselves, but just their own inherent natures - their strength, protectiveness and secrecy - that covers their land and may therefore protect the Fellowship.
B. What has led the rulers and people of Gondor to distrust and fear Lórien? Could the Elves of Lórien avoided this?
If they had been less secretive, perhaps they could have remained on ordinary terms with Men. But that's not the nature of Elves, at least in the time of LotR. They seem to prefer to live withdrawn from the world of Men, since their own view of the world has become so different from Men's view - the Elves are the past and cling to a fading world, whereas Men strive for the future. And Men tend to fear that which they don't know or understand, so distrust was sure to grow. (On a side note, I read in a local paper here in Ireland the other day about a traditional storyteller who visits schools with the stories he's collected over his lifetime of visiting rural areas. In an interview with the paper, it became clear that he believes the legends too - he told of cows falling sick or other misfortunes to farmers who turned out to have built on an ancient, hidden "fairy fort" on their lands. This kind of thinking must have been common at one time. And the "fairies" in Irish legend aren't little sprites but a great and powerful magical people who once ruled Ireland and then retreated to their hidden kingdoms when ordinary men spread over the land, just like the Elves.)
C. What do Boromir’s words and misgivings tell about his character? Is it difficult to empathize with him?
Well, Boromir is speaking like a typical Man, for which we can hardly blame him. And yet, to be no more than a typical Man is not good enough for what lies before him. He fails to rise above his limitations here, and will again at Parth Galen, until that last moment of clarity when he redeems himself. I think I can empathize with him, but I find it hard to admire him. He seems unable to rise above his own prejudices, so he seems rigid and pig-headed sometimes. Admirable qualities in a warrior, maybe, but not in difficult situations where the old certainties no longer apply.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 6 2008, 3:28pm
Post #7 of 19
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The Celtic Sidhe are the mythological people who were clearly the inspiration for Tolkien's Elves, much more clearly than their Norse counterpart. I don't know why Tolkien openly disliked Celtic mythology so much, because he clearly was inspired by it...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 6 2008, 3:40pm
Post #8 of 19
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A. What is the virtue of the Elves?
Nenya.
B. What has led the rulers and people of Gondor to distrust and fear Lórien?
They live forever. You gotta be suspicious of that.
Could the Elves of Lórien avoided this?
I suppose they could die. Which is why the two races get on so well when there’s a war.
C. What do Boromir’s words and misgivings tell about his character?
“`A plain road, though it led through a hedge of swords,' said Boromir.”
He’s no coward.
‘`’By strange paths has this Company been led, and so far to evil fortune.’”
He hit the nail on the head.
“’Against my will we passed under the shades of Moria, to our loss.’”
He probably hates to tell them so, but he told them so.
Sounds like, just like in the movie, Boromir is the voice of reason.
No surprise that there’s tension when a Man Of Reason comes along on A Fool’s Errand.
Is it difficult to empathize with him?
“’And now we must enter the Golden Wood, you say. But of that perilous land we have heard in Gondor, and it is said that few come out who once go in; and of that few none have escaped unscathed.'"
That’s exactly how it is with entering Faerie. Boromir knows the hazards. He’s making perfect sense.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 6 2008, 4:29pm
Post #9 of 19
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doth protest too much, methinks! 
I sometimes think that Tolkien is particularly vehement in denying inspirations that come too close to the truth... He also claims to dislike French medieval poetry, but Boromir has a lot of Roland about him, and the descriptions of Minas Tirith sound very much like French medieval castles at times. And I think Tolkien did at least admit to using the Welsh language as an inspiration.
I don't know why Tolkien openly disliked Celtic mythology so much, because he clearly was inspired by it...
Actually, in portraying the different races, I think he does take direct inspiration from a number of real-world sources, but most of all he wants his readers to know that it's the Anglo-Saxon that's closest to his heart.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 6 2008, 7:51pm
Post #10 of 19
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One of the Elvish languages is modified from Gaelic and the other from Finnish, I think, but I cannot remember which. Tolkien did admit to liking Gaelic as a language; his dislike for Celtic mythology if I recall was because it felt so disorganized to him. However, his legendarium was conceived originally as a unifying mythology for the British Isles, including the Celts. I suppose that he might have admitted to an association between his Elves and the Sidhe and their relatives the Tuatha, but in Tolkien's conception of Arda, his was the "true myth", or more true than the Celtic myths themselves were. Of course Tolkien would never have claimed to believe his legendarium actually being true, but in his idea, the stories we have left over from the Celts are garbled misrepresentations of the 'history' of the Elves in ancient times.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 6 2008, 10:28pm
Post #11 of 19
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But although it's a Celtic language, Welsh seems to be very different from (Irish/Scottish) Gaelic, both in sound and vocabulary. Irish and Scots Gaelic are closely related, but Ireland and Scotland were separated from England and Wales for many centuries during Roman rule and after, which is probably why the languages drifted apart. The Celtic-speaking inhabitants of England and Wales were driven into the western extremities of the island by the Anglo-Saxons and other invaders, so their language only survived in Wales, Cornwall (Cornish is now extinct) and Britanny in Northern France where some refugees fled to.
Having made a bit of an effort to read some of the Irish myths since moving here, I can see how they are disorganized and clearly contaminated with ideas from later times. Of course, like Beowulf, they have been Christianized - but I think that's inevitable since they could only survive to come to us by being written down, and they could only be written down once the technology for writing arrived with Christianity (earlier writing systems, such as runes, as I understand it, were not much use for writing stories in books - they were mostly for short inscriptions on stone or wood).
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Mar 7 2008, 2:53pm
Post #12 of 19
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Rising above one's limitations
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C. As to your response about Boromir: It's striking how Tolkien uses common and what many people would call reasonable thinking as a contrast to the extraordinary events and circumstances the characters have to relate to. These call for choices and actions that are both daring and demand of the characters to rise above their prejudice and inherited mindsets . Both Boromir & Denethor act as testimonies to the shortcomings of conventional wisdom.
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 10 2008, 11:44am
Post #13 of 19
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Somebody wrote once, s/he's never sure when you're serious and when joking
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But seriously, as far as Boromir is concerened you're right.
And it is important to realise Boromir was right about Moria (Aragorn was more Cassandra-like there). Gandalf scolded him for comparing it to Mordor, but it turned out that it was the abode of the most Sauron-like being the could encounter.
It's the same with Rohan - Gandalf and Aragorn rush to believe the rumors Gwaihir has reported, and it is Boromir who refuses to accept them. And he is right again.
Likewise, here. He escapes scathed, but not really changed. And without the testing of Galadriel, reading his thoughts "for her own good purpose" as he says next chapter - would he have gone over the edge on Amon Hen?
But no, it's not easy to empathize with him. The book was written by hobbits, and Gandalf's words are gospel in it. I have learned to empathize with Boromir (through Faramir's love for him, more than anything else), long before I realised he was right here. But the first times I've read the book, I considered him as a malcontent - dissatisfied with the Company's purpose and decision-makers (something like: "'Well, here we are' sneered Grishnakh. 'Fine leadership!'")
And seeing Bakshi's image of him didn't help.
"lesser men with spades might have served you better" - Boromir
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a.s.
Doriath
Mar 10 2008, 11:47am
Post #14 of 19
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he disliked the "madness" of Celtic legends
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I'm not sure we can say from the Letters we have that Tolkien disliked the entire stories of Celtic myths and legends, as much as he disliked a certain "madness", or their "fundamental unreason" (his words). Sometimes we might forget the context of that quote from Letter 19, which was written after he was given the comments of a reader who Unwin used to review the submitted "Gest of Beren and Luthien" and the Quenta Simarillion. The reader "reported unfavorably on the poem, but praised the prose narrative for its 'brevity and dignity', though he said he disliked its 'eye-splitting Celtic names'. His report continued: 'It has something of that mad, bright-eyed beauty that perplexes all Anglo-Saxons in face of Celtic art."
To which Tolkien replied to Unwin:
"Your reader's comments affords me delight. I am sorry the names split his eyes--personally I believe (and here believe I am a good judge) they are good, and a large part of the effect. They are coherent and consistent and made upon two related linguistic formulae, so that they achieve a reality not fully achieved to my feeling by other name-inventors (say Swift or Dunsany!). Needless to say they are not Celtic! Neither are the tales. I do know Celtic things (many in their original languages Irish and Welsh) and feel for them a certain distaste: largely for their fundamental unreason. They have bright colour, but are like a broken stained glass window reassembled without design. They are in fact 'mad' as your reader says..."
I would not like to read into these comments (either the reader's or Tolkien's) a certain Anglo-Saxon attitude toward the Irish and their "mad Irish ways", but am afraid there is a bit of that there. Even if Tolkien didn't fundamentally believe this, he appears to be sucking-up to that reader and Unwin in this response!
In short, I think we can make too much of this comment.
13 years later, he is explaining to Unwin (letter 130) that he had, at one time, intended to write a "body of more or less connected legend" for England, and he says:
"It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our 'air' (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe...), and, while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry.'
And then, explaining Sindarin (letter 144):
"The living language of the Western Elves (Sindarin or Grey-elven) is the one usually met, especially in names. This is derived from an origin common to it and Quenya, but the changes have been deliberately devised to give it a linguistic character very like (though not identical with) British-Welsh; because that character is one that I find, in some linguistic moods, very attractive; and because it seems to fit the rather 'Celtic' type of legends and stories told of its speakers."
So I'm not sure it's that Tolkien disliked everything about Celtic legends; he perhaps thought the old legends to be incoherent in places (their "fundamental unreason"), or bloody and "gross" in substance rather than the perceived Celtic beauty so many think they know about old Celtic myths ("the fair elusive beauty...rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things"); but I don't think he disliked the stories themselves, or he wouldn't have patterned some of his ancient elves after them, or used a language that deliberately called those ancient Celtic things to mind when we read about them.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Good night, little girls, thank the Lord you are well!
Now go to sleep" said Miss Clavel.
And she turned out the light and shut the door,
And that's all there is. There isn't any more.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 10 2008, 8:55pm
Post #15 of 19
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Keep in mind that Tolkien's friends coined the word, "Contrasistency" specifically for him. He consistently contradicted himself. It seems to me that this was his way of arriving at some vrather subtle truths through paradox.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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a.s.
Doriath
Mar 10 2008, 9:03pm
Post #16 of 19
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I haven't seen it used to describe Tolkien before (although it's perfect!). Who referred to him that way?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Good night, little girls, thank the Lord you are well!
Now go to sleep" said Miss Clavel.
And she turned out the light and shut the door,
And that's all there is. There isn't any more.
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a.s.
Doriath
Mar 10 2008, 9:17pm
Post #17 of 19
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dang, I found it in my "favorites", erch
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That does it. I gotta stop just "clicking-saving". LOL. As soon as I Googled "contrasistency Tolkien" I came up with the Orson Scott Card SVU page of student reviews that I have saved in my favorites for, ahem, later reading.
The reference I found was in a book review of Burns' Perilous Realms (how apropos!). I had to look a little more in Google, though, to find out that Burns did not originate that term. I see Clyde Kilby has used that term to describe Tolkien;
now, I've just got to get Perilous Realms...always something else to read, and so little time!
OK: so now that I know it was Clyde Kilby, someone tell me where he used that term! (And I hope it's not saved in my bottomless pile of "favorites"...)
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Good night, little girls, thank the Lord you are well!
Now go to sleep" said Miss Clavel.
And she turned out the light and shut the door,
And that's all there is. There isn't any more.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 10 2008, 9:34pm
Post #18 of 19
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"I felt that Tolkien was like an iceberg, something to be reckoned with above water in both its brilliance and mass and yet with much more below the surface. In his presence one was aware of a single totality but equally aware at various levels of a kind of consistent inconsistency that was both native -- perhaps his genius-- and developed, almost deliberate, even enjoyed. The word, if there were one, might be "contrasistency." If my account of him is sketchy and is itself inconsistent, it has the virtue of reflecting my real impression of the man."
-Prologue to "Tolkien and the Silmarillion", by Clyde Kilby
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 10 2008, 9:35pm)
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a.s.
Doriath
Mar 10 2008, 9:38pm
Post #19 of 19
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dang. Another book to find! thx! //
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"an seileachan"
"Good night, little girls, thank the Lord you are well!
Now go to sleep" said Miss Clavel.
And she turned out the light and shut the door,
And that's all there is. There isn't any more.
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