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Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand
Feb 27 2008, 5:59pm
Post #1 of 18
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Saruman vs. The Balrog
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I don't know, could the father of Isengard defeat the Demon of Moria?
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Padster
Nevrast
Feb 28 2008, 1:47pm
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Of course he could. Saruman the WHITE was more powerful than Gandalf the GREY, and Gandalf the GREY beat a Balrog.
Even taking their respective items into account, i.e.: Gandalf the Grey with Narya and Saruman with his own Ring of Power, evidence by Gandalf during the Council of Elrond:
"But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.”
So despite Gandalf the Grey having Narya, Saruman the White (or Many-coloured) was able to, fairly easily is seems, imprison him and stop him from escaping until external help came.
Cheers
Padster
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Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand
Feb 28 2008, 4:23pm
Post #3 of 18
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Yah but I thought Saruman's main threat was his words.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 28 2008, 4:43pm
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Yah but I thought Saruman's main threat was his words.
Only after Gandalf broke him. But now you've got me picturing Saruman giving that poor Balrog such a tongue-lashing that slowly his fire smoulders and goes out, and he slinks away, bowed and ashamed, leaving a melancholy trail of ash behind him.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand
Feb 28 2008, 9:05pm
Post #5 of 18
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THAT IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That would be so COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 29 2008, 5:21pm
Post #6 of 18
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Of course he could. Saruman the WHITE was more powerful than Gandalf the GREY, and Gandalf the GREY beat a Balrog.
He did? I hardly think dropping dead the minute after 'throwing down my enemy' is a victory. I'd call it a draw, like Glorfindel vs. the Balrog on the cliff over Gondolin or Ecthelion vs. Gothmog where 'each slew the other'. See, there's no winner in a battle vs. a Balrog that's recorded. If you consider destroying the Balrig at the loss of your own life a victory, then I guess Gandalf won.
Even taking their respective items into account, i.e.: Gandalf the Grey with Narya and Saruman with his own Ring of Power, evidence by Gandalf during the Council of Elrond:
"But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.”
First, there's no evidence that Saruman's Ring had any power, just that he wore a ring. Secondly, if his ring did have any power, he would've had to pour his own power into it's making.
So despite Gandalf the Grey having Narya, Saruman the White (or Many-coloured) was able to, fairly easily is seems, imprison him and stop him from escaping until external help came.
I agree & think Saruman would've been a match for the Balrog anyhow, but defeating him, maybe, maybe not. Probably a draw like everyone else I bet.
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nudge
Nevrast
Feb 29 2008, 8:16pm
Post #7 of 18
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I would have to agree with the above post. After all Saruman wasn't that much more powerful than Gandalf
Check out my sites: Hobbit Central & Journey of the Ring
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 29 2008, 8:59pm
Post #8 of 18
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Journey Of the Ring?
I watched Part 1....
Is this thing longer than PJ's movie? 
Pretty good - especially the white car behind the black bike rider. 
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nudge
Nevrast
Feb 29 2008, 10:28pm
Post #9 of 18
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It's an hour long.
Chapter 1 is actually my least favorite. Watch chapter 2 before you pass too much judgement. 
Check out my sites: Hobbit Central & Journey of the Ring
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Padster
Nevrast
Mar 2 2008, 8:36pm
Post #10 of 18
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Sec is held. What do I do now?
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> He did? I hardly think dropping dead the minute after 'throwing
> down my enemy' is a victory. I'd call it a draw, like Glorfindel vs.
> the Balrog on the cliff over Gondolin or Ecthelion vs. Gothmog
> where 'each slew the other'. See, there's no winner in a battle vs.
> a Balrog that's recorded. If you consider destroying the Balrig at
> the loss of your own life a victory, then I guess Gandalf won.
I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you have said here. Every Balrog fatality ended with the death of the warrior on the side of light too. And I personally think Glorfindel and Ecthelion’s victories were flukes in the extreme, particularly Ecthelion’s.
Gandalf’s battle is the only one that I feel to a meeting of pretty much equals and therefore representative of what it REALLY took to kill a Balrog.
> First, there's no evidence that Saruman's Ring had any power, just
> that he wore a ring. Secondly, if his ring did have any power, he
> would've had to pour his own power into it's making.
I don’t agree.
Indeed if it didn’t give him anything, then why wear one? Vanity? Possibly, but given that Saruman was recognised as the leading authority on the art of ring making and other devices of power...
The Council of Elrond
"...For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order......But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him [Sauron]. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him [Sauron] from Dol Guldur...”
[Saruman talking] “...For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!...”
[Gandalf taking] “...’Saruman,' I said, standing away from him, 'only one hand at a time can wield the One, and you know that well, so do not trouble to say we!’...”
[Elrond talking] "...This is grievous news concerning Saruman," he said; "for we trusted him and he is deep in all our counsels. It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy, for good or for ill...”
...in the absence of any Smith from Eregion, and of course excluding Sauron himself, I think it’s a bit irrational to think that the ring he had made didn’t have power. And given what I think is plenty of evidence to show Saruman had the necessary Lore to make Rings of Power, I don’t see how any other conclusion can be met, other than Saruman’s Ring had POWER.
Indeed Mr T makes it clear in the prologue to LORT that Saruman was only “...missing links...” away from making a ‘One Ring’ for himself:
“The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dûr would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth...”
This does not strike me as someone who would make a ring for his finger out of vanity, or in an effort to impress another of his order with his own craftsmanship. This says to me that Saruman had researched the Lore of ring making independently of Sauron, and had achieved in accumulating a good portion, if not all, the knowledge available to the Ring Smiths of Eregion, and only needed the Lore of Sauron to make himself a ‘One Ring’.
Was Saruman’s Ring as powerful as one of the Elven Rings? I would suspect not, but then I don’t think that necessarily diminished his art or the ring he made, especially if he made it for some specific purpose, such as empowering himself.
> I agree & think Saruman would've been a match for the Balrog
> anyhow, but defeating him, maybe, maybe not. Probably a draw
> like everyone else I bet.
I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if Saruman succumbed to the combat in a similar fashion to Gandalf, but given the fact that he was the superior of the two, I think he may have been able to finish off the Balrog without dying himself, even if it was a huge battle.
Saruman was clearly superior to Gandalf the Grey, and given the ease that he imprisoned Gandalf the Grey, I think that it is clear he was THAT much more powerful than Gandalf the Grey.
Cheers
Padster
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Keebler the Elf
Ossiriand
Mar 2 2008, 10:46pm
Post #11 of 18
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I think the Balrog could defeat Saruman at the time that Gandalf was beaten by Saruman, because Saruman couldn't sweet talk a Balrog. The Balrog would whip him like a dog with tail between its legs.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Mar 3 2008, 5:35am
Post #12 of 18
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I just wonder where Saruman would've found the lore to sucessfully make a Ring of Power.....
Certainly not in Eregion as it was laid to waste by Sauron 4350 years earlier. Where else would such lore exist?
The Ring Saruman wore could not be that powerful or Elrond, Galadriel & gandalf would've know the second he put it on.
Also, would Saruman have lost all his power if he'd transfered it from himself to the Ring?
No, the power would've stayed in the Ring, yet Gandalf broke his staff & later Saruman was powerless, so I'd say that Ring was a powerless Ring.
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Padster
Nevrast
Mar 3 2008, 9:52am
Post #13 of 18
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> I just wonder where Saruman would've found the lore to successfully
> make a Ring of Power.....
>
> Certainly not in Eregion as it was laid to waste by Sauron 4350 years
> earlier. Where else would such lore exist?
I couldn’t say specifically where Saruman got his Lore, but the fact is he DID know the Lore of Ring-making. Elrond knew this, Gandalf knew this and Tolkien SAYS it outside of the actual story, and therefore gives all the evidence needed to support this position.
I would suspect, given Tolkien’s need/desire to ensure his legendarium adhered as much as is possible to the real world (and as much as is possible for a story that clearly includes magic), that the Lore of Ring-making, in OUR terms, would simply have been some kind of scientific discipline. This being the case Saruman would have/could have simply discovered enough through experimentation and trial and error and making observations. With the knowledge garnered from such activities he was therefore able to make Ring of Power.
Whatever method he used, he DID know the Lore of Ring-making and he DID make his own Ring of Power, and he DID only need to have a few gaps filled in, in his knowledge in order that he would have had sufficient knowledge to make a ONE RING.
> The Ring Saruman wore could not be that powerful or Elrond,
> Galadriel & gandalf would've know the second he put it on.
Why would Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf had know of Saruman’s Ring?
The only Ring of Power that granted that kind of knowledge and power was the One Ring, which was made specifically for that purpose, i.e.: knowing the thoughts of and dominating them, of the wearers of the other Rings of Power. I can’t think of any passage (off-hand, but I could be wrong), which states that Elrond knew when Nenya or Narya were being worn or at work. Or that Gandalf knew when Vilya or Nenya were being worn or at work.
The ONLY passage I can think of is the one concerning the bearers of the Three Elven Rings (actually I think it was JUST Celebrimbor the maker of the Three) knowing when Sauron completed the One Ring and put it on his finger chanting that verse we know all too well.
131 To Milton Waldman
“...The moment he assumed the One, they were aware of it, and of his secret purpose, and were afraid...”
And why couldn’t the Ring have been that powerful? Saruman used the same Lore as the Smith’s of Eregion, and that Sauron used. Let’s try a sword making analogy, if we assume a Katana represents the ultimate in technical ability of sword making.
Saruman observes metal being smelted, iron being wrought and steel swords being hammered out. He then tries it himself. He makes a load of duff ones, which break, but eventually he makes a crude iron sword that hangs together. He refines his work until he has a good steel blade. OK he hasn’t mastered the folding technique of the Master Katana maker, but he has a blade that does the job. It isn’t as sharp or as well made as the Katana, but it can be wielded for the purpose for which is was made.
I don’t see Saruman’s ability to make Rings of Power to be any different. For sure I don’t think his Ring WAS as technically good as the Elven Smiths, or Sauron’s, for they had had more time (although Saruman studied Ringlore of many years), but that doesn’t mean his Ring was powerless, or hugely inferior.
> Also, would Saruman have lost all his power if he'd transfered it from
> himself to the Ring?
>
> No, the power would've stayed in the Ring, yet Gandalf broke his staff
> & later Saruman was powerless, so I'd say that Ring was a powerless Ring.
Again, why?
There seems to be a misnomer around that once Sauron had created the One Ring he lost a load of power to it, and therefore Saruman would suffer the same. This is not the case, as Mr T clearly states:
131 To Milton Waldman
“... He [Sauron] rules a growing empire from the great dark tower of Barad-dûr in Mordor, near to the Mountain of Fire, wielding the One Ring.
But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.”
It seems clear from this that a peculiar effect took place. Sauron did indeed need to invest the One Ring with his own personal inherent power, but whilst the One Ring existed he was not actually diminished at all, and when he actually had hold of the One Ring he was enhanced.
I see NO reason therefore why Saruman would suddenly suffer a permanent loss of power after having created his Ring, since he was following the same Lore as Sauron.
I can’t see how any other conclusion is possible, without some evidence to support it, other than personal opinion.
Cheers
Padster
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Mar 3 2008, 2:33pm
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Those are all great points, especially about Sauron not being deminished. Letter #131 is great & alot to digest - I've only read it 4 times so far since discovering it after my original copy of The Simarillion started falling apart & I reread The Letters..
But, there's a Letter, don't know the number, you might, where Tolkien talks about whether his book is allegory....
He says that if it was based on WWII, Barad-dur would not have been destroyed, but occupied, The Ring used against Sauron, a new Ringlord would've arisen & Hobbits would've been held in contempt by both sides....
And, 'In the confusion of the times, Saruman would've found the missing pieces in his search for the Ring-lore & made his own Ring of Power.'
(paraphrase, but close)
You know the Letter?
I guess that would drive a stake through the hole in that Ring.......
Because all this would happen way after the first visit of Gandalf to Isengard.
I must therefore conclude that this ring of Saruman's was a crackerjack ring, false pride worn like his coat of many colors (most likely to me) or at best 'a trifle compared to their later works but still in my mind dangerous to mortal men'.......
But one thing Tolkien himself makes clear is that it is not a FULL Ring of Power that Saruman has the ability to construct - yet.
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Padster
Nevrast
Mar 3 2008, 4:25pm
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Saruman was going to make a ONE RING
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> Those are all great points, especially about Sauron not being deminished.
> ......
> You know the Letter?
I can’t find it in Letters, although Mr T talks about LOTR not being an allegory for WW1. The text you are thinking about is from the Forward to LOTR, and reads:
“The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dûr would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would m the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.”
The part about Saruman’s details how he would eventually make his own GREAT ring, in the context of his failure to get hold of the One Ring. Therefore it must be talking about him making his own ONE RING.
Additionally something that I have just remembered and that no one seems to have considered so far, is that Saruman was, like Sauron, a Maiar aligned to Aulë, the great ‘maker’ of the Valar. Saruman and Sauron were very similar beings in skill sets (even if Sauron was much more powerful), so it is no surprise to me that Saruman was able to unearth/discover much about the making of Rings of Power without instruction.
Certainly Saruman was a much more powerful being than Celebrimbor, and Celebrimbor made the Three Elven rings without the direct aid of Sauron. So it seems a nonsense to me to think Saruman’s ring was not a true Ring of Power.
> But one thing Tolkien himself makes clear is that it is not a FULL Ring of Power
> that Saruman has the ability to construct - yet.
As I think the paragraph from LOTR Forward states, it WAS a ONE RING that Saruman would have made once he had filled in the gaps.
Cheers
Padster
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Mar 3 2008, 8:47pm
Post #16 of 18
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No, TLOR was written during WWII, so it's about being an allegory for that war.
I think everything else that needs to be said has been said.
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