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Beren IV
Mithlond
Feb 28 2008, 5:50am
Post #1 of 49
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The Bridge of Khazad-dûm IV: Flying Blind
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Aragorn carries Frodo through the doorway, but Frodo protests, and Aragorn almost drops him, thinking that he was dead. Gandalf bids the company to go onward, while Gandalf does what he can to shut the door. The drums go wild. Moments later, there is a rumble, Gandalf comes "fying down the steps", and is too shaken to even give the party any light.
1. Did Gandalf literally come flying down the steps, having been physically picked up and hurled bodily down the stairwell by his altercation with the enemy up above? Did he hit steps on the way down or not hit the floor until the bottom of the steps?
Frodo does not say much, finding breathing difficult. I would suspect that he has some broken ribs. They continue to flee down the steps without light, almost plummeting head-first down stairwells at times. Eventually, they stop to rest. Gandalf stops too, but says that he must rest even if all of the orcs ever spawned are after them. Gimli asks Gandalf if he met the beater of the drums, and Gandalf says that he does not know. Gandalf says that he was trying to put a shutting spell on the door when he heard an orc say "fire" on the other side of the door, and then some magic-using being percieved Gandalf and counterspelled him, almost "breaking" him. The door began to open. Gandalf used a word of command, which shattered the door, but all he could see inside the room was a dark fog. Then the walls and ceiling gave way, and Gandalf was thrown backwards.
2.Did Gandalf meet the beater of the drums? (more on that later!)
3. What does it mean for a person (e.g. Gandalf) to be "broken" by a counterspell?
4. What exactly does a Word of Command do? What can Gandalf command with it? Did Gandalf's as-yet-unnamed adversary use a Word of Command in response?
5. Why did Gandalf insist on fleeing as soon as he fell down the steps if he knew that the passage was now blocked behind them?
Conversation shifts to Frodo's injury. Aragorn says that the spear-thrust would have skewered a wild boar. Frodo sounds like he has a broken rib or two. Gandalf says that he thinks there is more to Frodo than meets the eye, likening him to Bilbo.
6. Frodo wonders about Gandalf's remark if it means more than he said. Do you think Gandalf realizes that Frodo must be wearing Bilbo's corselet?
They continue onward. Soon, Gimli sees firelight on the walls. Gandalf wonders if that's what the orc meant.
7. Do the various races see different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum? For example, can Dwarves see infrared? Can Elves see ultraviolet?
They come to the second hall, the main ante hall of Moria. It's just up the steps and out! But, behind the Fellowship, there is a flaming fissure across the middle of the room!
8. When did that appear? Surely Balin's expedition would have noticed that if it had been there at the time. Is it something that can be opened and closed?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Entwife Wandlimb
Menegroth
Feb 28 2008, 6:58am
Post #2 of 49
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White floor lights will lead to red exit-row lights
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1. Did Gandalf literally come flying down the steps, having been physically picked up and hurled bodily down the stairwell by his altercation with the enemy up above? Did he hit steps on the way down or not hit the floor until the bottom of the steps?
I always thought Gandalf figuratively came flying down the steps.
2.Did Gandalf meet the beater of the drums? (more on that later!)
Gimli’s question was odd, I’ve thought. I always figured the drummer "boy" was someone rather junior in the army and that the beater of the drums would be a lackey, not The Big Boss. I supposed Gimli meant the one giving orders to the beater of the drums, but maybe not.
3. What does it mean for a person (e.g. Gandalf) to be "broken" by a counterspell?
In this case, “It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command.” So, if it had broken him, the door would have left his control. Perhaps it would have also disabled him, signifying that his will was broken as well?
4. What exactly does a Word of Command do? What can Gandalf command with it? Did Gandalf's as-yet-unnamed adversary use a Word of Command in response?
This always sounds like the techno babble on Star Trek. I don’t know what it means but it sounds like someone familiar with these things would know.
5. Why did Gandalf insist on fleeing as soon as he fell down the steps if he knew that the passage was now blocked behind them?
I suppose he did not what evil was ahead of him.
6. Frodo wonders about Gandalf's remark if it means more than he said. Do you think Gandalf realizes that Frodo must be wearing Bilbo's corselet?
I always took this to mean that Gandalf is accusing of Frodo of being secretive. I think it could also be read differently, in a more flattering light, in that Frodo and Bilbo are both tougher than they look. I prefer the more critical observation because I think it suggests that the Ring is influencing them both. Why doesn’t Frodo want to admit he has the corselet, even now? I think there’s an element of deceit in both that is slightly troubling. Of course, I’m sure he suspects the corselet but I think what he finds more remarkable is the similar secretive natures.
7. Do the various races see different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum? For example, can Dwarves see infrared? Can Elves see ultraviolet?
I don’t know how cats can see well in the dark or how eagles can see from afar but I imagine this is a similar phenomenon. Interestingly, Frodo’s wound enables him to see in the dark better than before but the Black Riders can only smell in the dark.
8. When did that appear? Surely Balin's expedition would have noticed that if it had been there at the time. Is it something that can be opened and closed?
This is the exit from hell. There’s a clear boundary and a formidable guardian. It wasn’t originally the border between the underworld and the world of the living – the dwarves crossed that line when they dug too deep. Once they crossed the line, the underworld has been literally moving up in the world. Unlike the Greek underworld, this underworld is going to keep on moving up and out into the world if the Ring cannot be unmade.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 28 2008, 3:05pm
Post #3 of 49
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The Theory On Hell Opened Up.....
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1. Did Gandalf literally come flying down the steps, having been physically picked up and hurled bodily down the stairwell by his altercation with the enemy up above? Did he hit steps on the way down or not hit the floor until the bottom of the steps?
I always took it that the 'strain' of the Balrog's counter-spell 'proved too much' (as the text says), which caused the door to burst, "throwing me (Gandalf) backwards down the stairs", so, yes, Gandalf literally falls down the stairs. It also says 'Gandalf came flying down the steps & fell to the ground in the midst of the company.'
Theories & opinions aside, the correct answer is often right in the text......
2.Did Gandalf meet the beater of the drums? (more on that later!)
Gandalf met Durin's Bane (The Balrog), & I doubt he did much drumming as he probably would've burnt up the drumsticks.
3. What does it mean for a person (e.g. Gandalf) to be "broken" by a counterspell?
I would guess it's somewhat similar to the way that Sauron strips Finrod's disguise from him on Tol Sirion when he & Beren are disguised as Orcs by 'the arts of Felagund'....
They sing songs of power' & Sauron 'has the mastry', i.e., the greater power, or to put it another way, Sauron 'breaks' Finrod.
We can assume that Gandalf does not really have less power than Durin's Bane - they are more or less equal as can be seen in their mutual deaths in their Battle of the Peak - but remember that Gandalf is totally unprepared for 'such a challange' at this point & gets taken at unawares
4. What exactly does a Word of Command do? What can Gandalf command with it? Did Gandalf's as-yet-unnamed adversary use a Word of Command in response?
Well, again, the text tells:
The word of command is to re-close the door. Apparently, any word of command will do what the commander tells it.
And, yes, the Balrog spoke his own word of command in his counter-spell, creating the strain on the door, which caused it to collapse under the strain of trying to go in two directions at once. I would see more of an 'explosion' by the door than a collapse, & this would explain Gandalf being thrown backwards down the stairs. I imagine that the Balrog would be thrown back too, if 'shadow & fire could be thrown back, which of course it can since Balrogs have been physically killed, which means they have some physical substance.
5. Why did Gandalf insist on fleeing as soon as he fell down the steps if he knew that the passage was now blocked behind them?
I suppose he did not what evil was ahead of him.
Exactly. Gandalf had no idea that the chasm of fire would block their enemies - temporarily.
6. Frodo wonders about Gandalf's remark if it means more than he said. Do you think Gandalf realizes that Frodo must be wearing Bilbo's corselet?
It always seemed obvious to me, even when reading it the first time.
7. Do the various races see different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum? For example, can Dwarves see infrared? Can Elves see ultraviolet?
I never thought of that. I doubt it as that would seem like a animal vs. humaniod thing - if that indeed exists. I mean, scientists assume so much stuff that might not be facts. Enough on that however. I always figured Hobbits see better than Dwarves, Elves see better than all other Speaking Peoples. That's about what Tolkien Gives Us.
8. When did that appear? Surely Balin's expedition would have noticed that if it had been there at the time. Is it something that can be opened and closed?
This is the exit from hell. There’s a clear boundary and a formidable guardian. It wasn’t originally the border between the underworld and the world of the living – the dwarves crossed that line when they dug too deep. Once they crossed the line, the underworld has been literally moving up in the world. Unlike the Greek underworld, this underworld is going to keep on moving up and out into the world if the Ring cannot be unmade.
This is an interesting theory, but there's several problems that I'd like to point out:
1. The place the Dwarves 'delved to deep' for Mithril is miles away under Caradhras.
2. The Balrog, the 'demon of Might', who we would assume came from 'hell', was released there, not from this fissure
3. The Balrog was only encased in stone in Moria because he hid there from the Host of the West upon their Breaking of Thangorodrim & casting out of Morgoth into the Void, when he fled to hide there. Hell is often called Morgoth's 2 fortesses, Utumno & Angband, where the Balrogs dwelt for Ages & Ages..
4. Earlier in the 'Journey In the Dark', Tolkien writes that ''There were fissures & chasms in the walls & floors, & every now & then a crack would open right before their feet. The widest was seven feet.'
Now, this one is wider, but it's no wider than a slab of stone & it is indeed called a 'great fissure', so it is not from the Dwarves delving. The reason, I believe, that it's wider is that it does not lie in tunnels (which, unlike PJ's open staircases are simply tunnels of course). This is a huge open room & has the ability to let a fissure open much wider than a closed tunnel of solid rock, plus, it's right near the abyss spanned by Durin's Bridge where Gandalf fights Durin's Bane, which would further destabilize the ground. The reason it has fire in it, I guess, is it is deeper than any other fissure & in just the right place..
(This post was edited by Tolkien Forever on Feb 28 2008, 3:10pm)
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acheron
Mithlond
Feb 28 2008, 3:21pm
Post #4 of 49
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Darkness won't engulf my head
I can see by infrared
How I hate the night
- Marvin, from (I believe) The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
Other than that, all I have to contribute is:
4. What exactly does a Word of Command do? What can Gandalf command with it? Did Gandalf's as-yet-unnamed adversary use a Word of Command in response?
I've assumed it was the same kind of thing as when Gandalf sets the sticks on fire on Caradhras. A literal, spoken, "spell". On the mountain, there were no other enemies as such around them, but Gandalf said that anyone would be able to detect him using it, so it's obviously a very great kind of power.
I would guess the Balrog didn't use a "word of command" as such, but perhaps something similar. Remember, Olorin-as-Gandalf is not supposed to openly use his Maia-power, except when absolutely necessary. Perhaps that's what he means by "word of command"; while in the form of an old man, he needs to very openly and specifically call upon his Maia-power, hence the spoken spells and words. The Balrog is under no such restriction.
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Feb 28 2008, 3:57pm
Post #5 of 49
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1. Did Gandalf literally come flying down the steps, having been physically picked up and hurled bodily down the stairwell by his altercation with the enemy up above? Did he hit steps on the way down or not hit the floor until the bottom of the steps?
I had always pictured him simply running really fast, with his robes and hair and beard whipping around him, but having read the other posts, I see now that getting blown down by the force of the exploding door is both more likely and more vivid.
2.Did Gandalf meet the beater of the drums? (more on that later!)
Not really. But it shows that using drums to psych them out worked, since Gimli's focusing his dread on the drums, rather irrationally.
And hey, didn't they have a drum-beating troll or two at the seige of Gondor, to help time the wielding of Grond?
3. What does it mean for a person (e.g. Gandalf) to be "broken" by a counterspell?
I imagine that's what Gandalf did to Saruman later on. So that would mean stripping him of all his wizardly power, his very state of maia-ness, leaving him trapped in the body of a mortal man. Which doesn't preclude any human-wieldable powers, such as a manipulative tongue, which Saruman shared with the all-too-human Benjamin Linus (to jump genres mid-stream--reference is to "Lost".)
4. What exactly does a Word of Command do? What can Gandalf command with it? Did Gandalf's as-yet-unnamed adversary use a Word of Command in response?
It's a spell. Part of the maia arsenal. At that point Gandalf had to have been guessing that he was up against some kind of equal. But then that range had a reputation for holding powers in the earth older than the coming of the maiar and valar, so he couldn't be sure what to think.
5. Why did Gandalf insist on fleeing as soon as he fell down the steps if he knew that the passage was now blocked behind them?
Because, having just duked it out with an equal in power, he had no idea how long it might stay blocked.
6. Frodo wonders about Gandalf's remark if it means more than he said. Do you think Gandalf realizes that Frodo must be wearing Bilbo's corselet?
Absolutely! Gandalf does have some degree of mind reading ability (not complete, but enough) and has been around long enough to figure all kinds of things out not obvious to mere mortals. I am sure he knew about all kinds of secrets that he kept his mouth shut on, such as knowing exactly why Sam was eavesdropping back in Bag End, and questioning him only to see if he would blurt out Merry and Pippin's secret under pressure (why else would someone with the ability to know when he was being lied to become so joyful over Sam's lies, and declare that Frodo could trust him?) And his reference to there being more about Bilbo than met the eye was, in fact, his covert reference to Bilbo possessing some magic trinket or other that could render him invisible. He might not have known what that charm might be, but he did know that Bilbo didn't escape raging goblins and slip past the dwarvish guard just by moving really quietly.
7. Do the various races see different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum? For example, can Dwarves see infrared? Can Elves see ultraviolet?
I would expect that elves, dwarves, and orcs all see better than human beings in the dark. Elves throve in the dark under the stars before the rising of the sun, and before the summons to the light of Valinor. Dwarves and orcs are subterranean. Elves probably see the whole spectrum, including infrared.
Orcs probably have eyes more like a cat's, sacrificing color vision for enhanced night vision--orcs do not strike me as admirers of color. Well, maybe they have some limited color vision, because they can see the color red. But that's more on the infrared scale of things, so they might have some infrared vision, and can see red but not blue or purple, which would look black or gray to them.
I expect that dwarves have much the same spectrum of sight as elves, since they like to wear different colors of hoods, and appreciate gem stones, yet were made to survive in darkness. But they don't seem to have much distance vision--something not particularly needed underground.
Hobbits are more related to human beings than anything, and so have eyes much like ours, although their sight and hearing is much keener. That might simply be from better maintenance, since their bucolic lifestyle does not overstrain their eyes and hearing with loud noise and glare. Rustic people often do have superior senses for that reason.
8. When did that appear? Surely Balin's expedition would have noticed that if it had been there at the time. Is it something that can be opened and closed?
Balin's expedition might well have taken note of the fissure. Gandalf did not have time to read the entire book of records. It probably did not have fire in its depths, however, before the coming of the Balrog. Gandalf laughs at the orcs finding themselves on the wrong side of the fire, saying, "They did not expect that!" Which implies that they only just now set the fire to try and trap the Nine Walkers, but managed it rather stupidly.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Feb 28 2008, 3:59pm)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Feb 28 2008, 4:37pm
Post #6 of 49
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1. Did Gandalf literally come flying down the steps, having been physically picked up and hurled bodily down the stairwell by his altercation with the enemy up above? Did he hit steps on the way down or not hit the floor until the bottom of the steps?
This is a metaphor. If you believe in Balrog wings, then you also believe Gandalf actually flew.
2.Did Gandalf meet the beater of the drums? (more on that later!)
You think there was only one person beating the drums? How many drums do you think one person could beat effectively? How often would he have to break down his kit to move and follow the Fellowship so they could always hear him? Does it say the drums faded into the distance behind them as the Fellowship moved along, then the drums would stop, then they’d hear the running of feet and the banging of equipment, and then the drums would start up again somewhere in front of them? Wouldn’t the drummer get really tired after three days? Wouldn’t there be a relief drummer? Or maybe it would be easier just to have a lot of beaters of drums in stationary positions all along the route.
3. What does it mean for a person (e.g. Gandalf) to be "broken" by a counterspell?
Well, I’ve always thought of a counterspell as like a riposte. When you successfully parry an opponent they usually leave themselves wide open so they’re especially vulnerable to a devastating counterattack. Similarly, whoever counterspelled Gandalf (riposted his spell) did a follow up attack while Gandalf was still open and almost wound his clock.
4. What exactly does a Word of Command do?
It alters, creates, or controls reality. The One Ring is supposedly a Ring of Command. Frodo uses it to command Gollum at Oroduin.
What can Gandalf command with it?
Well, Sam can use the Word of Command “giddyup” to make Bill go. Eru can use the Words of Command “Let there be light” to create the universe. Gandalf is somewhere in between.
Did Gandalf's as-yet-unnamed adversary use a Word of Command in response?
No, he used a counterspell. Now a particular counterspell could be a combo that includes a Word of Command.
5. Why did Gandalf insist on fleeing as soon as he fell down the steps if he knew that the passage was now blocked behind them?
I think the blocking of the passage was intended more as a temporary measure rather than a permanent solution.
6. Frodo wonders about Gandalf's remark if it means more than he said. Do you think Gandalf realizes that Frodo must be wearing Bilbo's corselet?
Of course Gandalf knows! You think there’s anything about Frodo, and the ring, and anything he’s carrying that Gandalf doesn’t know about? As for everybody else, after three weeks on the road, walking together, camping together, eating together, sleeping together, and probably bathing in creeks together, why is what Frodo is wearing as an undershirt still a big secret? I mean, I’m sure they all know the pattern on Pippin’s shorts by now.
7. Do the various races see different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum?
Sure. Elves are like cats. They sit and stare for hours at stuff we humans can’t see. And Dwarves have big dollar signs in their eyes.
For example, can Dwarves see infrared?
They seem to do well underground, and even prefer it.
Can Elves see ultraviolet?
They can see into the spirit world.
They come to the second hall, the main ante hall of Moria. It's just up the steps and out! But, behind the Fellowship, there is a flaming fissure across the middle of the room!
8. When did that appear?
Probably just as the Balrog was getting near. Obviously he likes to make an entrance.
Surely Balin's expedition would have noticed that if it had been there at the time.
But would they have mentioned it? There's lots of fissures and crevasses all over Moria and they didn't mention every one. What makes this fissure different?
Is it something that can be opened and closed?
I’m sure the Balrog can open and close it easily. Gandalf should have put a shutting spell on it, but I guess he can't put a spell on everywhere the Balrog might pop up.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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weaver
Gondolin
Feb 28 2008, 4:41pm
Post #7 of 49
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There are only two instances in LOTR where the phrase "word of command" is used -- here, and in the Ring Goes South chapter, when Gandalf uses a "word of command" to start a fire when no one else could, and it's a choice "between fire and death."
In the fire-starting instance, Gandalf says that using a "word of command" reveals him, as Gandalf. Like Galadriel's mirror, which isn't really "elf magic" but appears that way to those who aren't elves, maybe a "Word of Command" is a power or technology that only the Maia possess, so using it basically announces to the crowd that there's a maia in their midst...
Maybe, too, it's just a way of connecting the user with a "higher power". Gandalf never resorts to Words of Command after his return as G. the White...and Saruman, surprisingly, does not utilize words of command to achieve his ends. Perhaps G. the White is "beyond" the need for such tools -- he's got a direct connection -- and perhaps Saruman sort of wants to exert his own power, rather than to channel powers that are not exclusively his own.
Weaver
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Entwife Wandlimb
Menegroth
Feb 28 2008, 5:14pm
Post #8 of 49
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What can Gandalf command with it?
Well, Sam can use the Word of Command “giddyup” to make Bill go. Eru can use the Words of Command “Let there be light” to create the universe. Gandalf is somewhere in between.
That's a great point. I think this is what Tolkien had in mind, especially in light of Galadriel's upcoming conversation with Frodo.
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Entwife Wandlimb
Menegroth
Feb 28 2008, 6:18pm
Post #9 of 49
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3. The Balrog was only encased in stone in Moria because he hid there from the Host of the West upon their Breaking of Thangorodrim & casting out of Morgoth into the Void, when he fled to hide there. Hell is often called Morgoth's 2 fortesses, Utumno & Angband, where the Balrogs dwelt for Ages & Ages..
Cool! I didn't know this.
While I agree with you that the Balrog didn't just hop out of this fissure, I stand my my explanation for the change in Moria. Moria was once a civilized and beautiful place. It was corrupted by greed which literally opened the gates of hell. The dwarves and elves are dead and gone and the place had gone to the orcs. In LotR, nature reflects the morality of its inhabitants. This isn't Frank Herbert's Dune where good people may call a harsh land home. In Middle Earth, evil corrupts even the environment and so fire and darkness wil spread across ME if evil is not defeated.
It is also necessary for the fire and fight to take place here in service to the story -- the heroes must face the Balrog now because he is the Big Boss fight at the end of the level. If they escape him, they can escape from the underworld. They are like Dante, Aeneas, Orpheus and Beowulf -- all heroes who narrowly escaped the underworld.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 28 2008, 6:48pm
Post #10 of 49
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That's very intersting imagery.
I do agree about the evil affecting land to some degree & moreso than just destroying it in war because 'Sauron can torture even the hills' (whatever).
Tolkien uses much imagery in telling his story, much of it - gasp! - Christian as he himself says.
I tend to uses "Just the facts, Maam" in explaining things in his world while some get off on some wild theories of their own in spite of Tokien's own words on the subject.
For example, one might choose to say, "Well, I believe that Gandalf ran down the stairs after the door in the Chamber of Mazarbul collapsed", yet the text I quoted plainly showed he fell or was blown down the stairs. However lots of people will stubbornly stick to their guns anyhow & say,'I still believe he ran any way regardless of what you quoted, I still wish to interpret it MY way."
Go figure.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Feb 28 2008, 7:17pm
Post #11 of 49
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can just mean "flee" as in "Fly, you fools!" So my vote is that Gandalf came pounding down the stairs in full retreat mode, and fell at the bottom. I don't imagine him actually airborne.
(Interesting that there is an example of "flying blind" in the chapter - Aragorn says "But it is no good flying blindly this way with the pursuit just behind." But here again, it means "flee", not "get airborne", as underlined by the fact that when you paraphrased Aragorn's words in your last post, you changed "fly" to "flee"!)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Feb 28 2008, 10:51pm
Post #12 of 49
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we already saw in letter #207 that Tolkien highly objected to Gandalf being depicted comically or without appropriate dignitas. I'd think tumbling down stairs would qualify as such a depiction, so I don't think Tolkien intended it that way.
It's like in the film with McKellen bumping his head in Bag End. Sure, it's funny and humanizing, but it's neither Gandalf nor Tolkien.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 28 2008, 10:53pm)
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 28 2008, 11:04pm
Post #13 of 49
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This is what the TEXT says, regardless of our own immagry:
'Gandalf came flying down the steps & fell to the ground in the midst of the company.'
"throwing me (Gandalf) backwards down the stairs"
First, If Gandalf came running down the stairs, then why did he fall down?
Did he run too fast & his legs cause him to fall like in a cartoon?
Note: "Throwing me backwards down the stairs'
Opinions aside, that just ain't running; It's falling. Simple as that. Tolkien wrote it, I only copied it.
PS: I realize nobody will every change their 'theories', so I give up. 
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Feb 29 2008, 12:48am
Post #14 of 49
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I note oaths are Words of Command given to oneself. And in Middle-earth the consequences are quite dire for breaking them.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 29 2008, 12:58am
Post #15 of 49
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This is a metaphor. If you believe in Balrog wings, then you also believe Gandalf actually flew.
No, I don't believe Gandalf flew (although I - of all people  can appreciate your satirical style).
However, Tolkien says (now that's fightin' words):
'His wings WERE spread from wall to wall'
Not as in the previous mention, ''the shadow about it reached out LIKE two vast wings'
Herein lies the confusion.
On the one hand, Tolkien gives the methaphorical use of 'LIKE' wings to describe the Balrog's shadowy aspect. Then, he unequivicably states that the Balrogs wings were spread from wall to wall - no metaphor used in that sentance at all.
In one poll on another Tolkien site, about 77% of people voted they believed the Balrog had wings......
I wonder what the other 23% were reading.
But, I'm sure we haven't heard the last of this topic as we are 'on the doorstep' of this very text. 
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Feb 29 2008, 5:26am
Post #16 of 49
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About Elves and Dwarves seeing different parts of the spectrum, here is what I am thinking:
Most stars are intrinsically brighter and hotter than the sun, which means that they shine more brightly in the ultraviolet than in the visible. As creatures of the night under the stars, it would make sense that the Elves would see ultraviolet.
Likewise, fire is a much more potent infrared source than a visible source, so it would make sense if Dwarves could see infrared when lighting their underground world with torches or other lamps.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Feb 29 2008, 8:37am
Post #17 of 49
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First: "Flying" in Tolkien often just means running running away - running headlong as fast as you can go. "Throwing me backwards down the stairs" certainly sounds pretty out of control, but "flying", as in being shot downstairs without touching the ground, sounds like something else again. So I guess I tend to imagine him pushed violently backwards onto the stairs, but getting to the bottom mostly under his own steam, although clearly off-balance since he falls at the end. (If Tolkien had written "tumbling down the steps" I'd have to change my mind, but "flying" is ambiguous and, I believe, is open to interpretation.)
Second: Changing people's "theories" is pretty much a lost cause, as you say! What I've mostly learned on these boards is just how ambiguous Tolkien can be, and how that allows different people to see things in ways that work best for them. I don't see it as a frustration but as one of the secret strengths of LotR!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Feb 29 2008, 9:02am
Post #18 of 49
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As soon as you see the word "like" or "as" you know you have a simile":
"Her eyes were blue AS the sea."
"Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world LIKE a Colossus" (Shakespeare on Julius Caesar)
'the shadow about it reached out LIKE two vast wings'
If it's missing, so that what you have is just a bald assertion, it *could* be a metaphor... or it could be true:
"Her eyes were deep pools..." (metaphor)
"This is a crisis. A large crisis. In fact, if you've got a moment, it's a twelve-story crisis with a magnificent entrance hall, carpeting throughout, 24-hour porterage and an enormous sign on the roof saying 'This Is a Large Crisis.'" (Two true statements, followed by a metaphor for emphasis; from Black Adder via Wikipedia)
"His wings were spread from wall to wall" (choose sides!)
New grandson of Elizabeth, b. 2/25/2008
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Feb 29 2008, 9:06am)
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Feb 29 2008, 9:15am
Post #19 of 49
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"Fleeing" is a plausible interpretation. Given the extra description, it *could* certainly mean falling. What it definitely *doesn't* mean is FLYING like Gwiahir.
New grandson of Elizabeth, b. 2/25/2008
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Feb 29 2008, 2:09pm
Post #20 of 49
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we already saw in letter #207 that Tolkien highly objected to Gandalf being depicted comically or without appropriate dignitas. I'd think tumbling down stairs would qualify as such a depiction, so I don't think Tolkien intended it that way.
I agree that Tolkien disapproved of making Gandalf a figure of fun (in Letter 210 in my edition, when he objects to Gandalf "spluttering"). But still, Gandalf himself doesn't stand on his dignity and seems willing to appear foolish at times, which is a sign of his wisdom and humility. He dresses as a beggar, according to Saruman, and allows himself to be taken for a mostly-harmless old fellow by the inhabitants of the Shire. I think that, as Gandalf meets his match here in Moria, he may indeed look vulnerable, and perhaps he was blown down the stairs as Tolkien Forever believes. He certainly falls as he gets to the bottom. It's quite a shock to us as well as the hobbits to see Gandalf so weakened. Gandalf does lose his dignity here, but because he never stands on his dignity anyway, it doesn't make him appear comical. I think it mostly makes us fear for him.
It's like in the film with McKellen bumping his head in Bag End. Sure, it's funny and humanizing, but it's neither Gandalf nor Tolkien.
Yeah, that's not Tolkien, but mostly because Tolkien conveniently forgets about the scale issue whenever it suits him. Gandalf appears to be perfectly comfortable in Bag End, and even sleeps there, as if there's no noticeable difference in height between himself and the hobbits. But as far as it shows Gandalf being grumpily but kindly disposed to hobbits and their way of life, the movie scene doesn't strike me as particularly far from Gandalf's character as we see it in the book.
(Poor Tolkien in the Letter #207 that you referenced! What a painful thing it must have been to see his book butchered that way. I guess most authors today have learned to take the money, step back and hope for the best. It must be like watching your child being operated on - definitely not recommended unless you have the training to understand the procedure, and maybe not even then.)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 29 2008, 4:44pm
Post #21 of 49
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I think the point in Letter #207 is a fool in TOLKIEN's eye's, not Darkstone's.
Falling down the stairs due to a door that collapses under the strain of moving in two directions at once - I believe that would make it literally explode forcing Gandalf backwards down the stairs, where the text says he fell into the midst of the company does not make one a fool.
Later, this is further backed up by Gandalf's own word's to Gimli:
Note: "Throwing me backwards down the stairs'
What backs up saying he ran down the stairs?
Nothing but an interpretation of the word 'flew'.....
Enough already.
Back on the subject of Gandalf looking like a fool, Gandalf lets Denethor do that in Minas Tirith when he goads The G-man about being over-matched with The Lord of the Nazgul...
"It may be so" is all Gandalf says instead, "Why don't you go out & try yourself, loudmouth."
Finally, I agree the movie scene in Bag End doesn't show Gandalf grumpy - PJ saves that mostly for Gandalf the White unfortunately, like when Pippen swears fealty to Denethor or when Gandalf smacks Denethor in face with the his staff - what Tolkien would've said, I daren't think......
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a.s.
Doriath
Feb 29 2008, 5:53pm
Post #22 of 49
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What backs up saying he ran down the stairs?
Nothing but an interpretation of the word 'flew'.....
Enough already.
Are you talking to yourself, or to FFH? In other words, are you telling FFH that she's said enough already? Or are you just talking out loud to yourself?
I hate to misunderstand here.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."
"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.
"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Feb 29 2008, 6:10pm
Post #23 of 49
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I was agreeing with you:
I think that, as Gandalf meets his match here in Moria, he may indeed look vulnerable, and perhaps he was blown down the stairs as Tolkien Forever believes. He certainly falls as he gets to the bottom.
Or at least, I was saying that your interpretation is as valid as any other. I don't think Gandalf is made to look a fool by falling down the stairs, if that's what happened (and even if he didn't, he fell at the bottom, which isn't so different anyway in terms of making Gandalf look less than his normal dignified self).
I have to agree that we've discussed this very minor linguistic point (regarding the possible meanings of "fly") enough already! Actually, I don't really care whether Gandalf "fled" down the stairs or "flew" in the sense of being blown down them. It's entirely up to the reader to visualise this as they prefer, as far as I'm concerned. I happened to have noticed that Tolkien almost always writes "fly" when he means "flee", which is why I personally visualise him running down. But if you like to imagine him flying through the air, I have no argument against that. That's entirely up to you. There's no single answer here that we all have to agree on.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Entwife Wandlimb
Menegroth
Feb 29 2008, 6:24pm
Post #24 of 49
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Yes, I think you make a clear case for Gandalf falling down the stairs. He isn't literally flying, he's literally falling. I suppose he could have fallen and then "flown" as in hurried, if you like. (I don't see anyone asserting that he flew like Peter Pan, which would be the literal interpretation.)
Yes, Denethor calling Gandalf the Grey Fool and referring to the Fool's Hope emphasize the futility of human wisdom. Gandalf is frail enough to fall down stairs. He is frail enough to be dragged down to his death. But his trust is not in his own strength but that of the one he serves. He never puts his faith in his own power to get Frodo to Mordor and destroy the Ring. Even Elrond is not as wise as Gandalf is in this for it is Gandalf who believes that Merry and Pippin may be better companions than "one of the mighty of the Firstborn" or "an Elf-lord of a house of princes."
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Feb 29 2008, 6:56pm
Post #25 of 49
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It's possible that rather than being thrown backwards down the entire "long flight of steps", he was able to find his footing somewhere along that "utterly dark" passage and still fall at the bottom. It's very much open to interpretation, but certainly not an essential plot point worth arguing about, IMO. There is no 'right' version, only 'right for me' versions...unless Tolkien's been speaking from the grave...And since I already hear voices...well...he ain't talkin'. That's all I'm sayin'. =)
(This post was edited by Eowyn of Penns Woods on Feb 29 2008, 6:57pm)
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