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FarFromHome
Valinor
Feb 8 2008, 5:16pm
Post #1 of 11
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The Council of Elrond 8: The moment of truth
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Finally we are getting to the point! Gandalf's tale is over, the other possibilities (such as Bombadil) have been dismissed, and a decision is reached:
"Now at this last we must take a hard road, a road unforeseen. There lies our hope, if hope it be. To walk into peril - to Mordor. We must send the Ring to the Fire."
"We must take a hard road?" And yet, "We must send the Ring to the Fire."
Does Elrond have any idea who will be the "we" who will take the road? Is there any possibility he might go himself?
Then Elrond widens the criteria for the job (or does he narrow them?) You don't have to be strong, or great, to do this:
"This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."
And Bilbo takes the hint:
"Very well, very well, Master Elrond!" said Bilbo suddenly. "Say no more! It is plain enough what you are pointing at. Bilbo the silly hobbit started this affair, and Bilbo had better finish it, or himself...When ought I to start?"
Does Bilbo know that he is not capable of doing the job, or does he mean it? Isn't he making it virtually impossible for Frodo not to volunteer? Does he realize that?
Bilbo goes on putting Frodo deeper and deeper into the hole, asking who will go on the Quest if not him:
No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
Is Frodo's reaction, "wonder[ing] to hear his own words", a psychologically realistic one? Have you ever had a moment like that?
It seems to him "as if" some other will was using his voice. Do you think another will was moving him? If so, is he still acting with "free will"? Or could it be the moral pressure of the expectations around him that makes him feel this way? Can we tell either way?
Elrond accepts Frodo's offer with great gravity, using the names of "all the mighty elf-friends of old, Hador, and Húrin, and Túrin, and Beren himself" to compare Frodo to. But then the gravity is broken by Sam:
"But you won't send him off alone surely, Master?" cried Sam, unable to contain himself any longer, and jumping up from the corner where he had been quietly sitting on the floor.
"No indeed!" said Elrond, turning towards him with a smile. "You at least shall go with him. It is hardly possible to separate you from him, even when he is summoned to a secret council and you are not."
Sam sat down, blushing and muttering. "A nice pickle we have landed ourselves in, Mr. Frodo!" he said, shaking his head.
Are we meant to have forgotten about Sam? When he made his outburst, was he expecting to be told he was to go with Frodo? Do you see parallels between this scene and the one at the Bag End window?
Tom Shippey, in The Road to Middle-Earth, has a comment about this moment, calling Sam "as obtuse as his father" for saying that both he and Frodo have landed themselves in a "pickle"; according to Shippey, "Sam got himself into trouble, but Frodo did not."
Surely, from Sam's point of view, it's actually Frodo who got himself into a pickle - by volunteering to take the Ring to Mordor. And wherever Frodo goes Sam intends to go too, so if Frodo's in a pickle, Sam going to jump right into the pickle too!
Do you agree with Shippey, that Sam has misinterpreted what's going on? Or does he actually understand more than he tends to let people see? Again, can we tell either way?
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Feb 9 2008, 6:38am
Post #2 of 11
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Does Elrond have any idea who will be the "we" who will take the road? Is there any possibility he might go himself?
I don't think Elrond would even consider going himself. That is not his role. Elrond's place is in Rivendell. Elrond IS Rivendell. He is host, counselor, lore-master, healer, but no longer a warrior or even a wanderer. Frankly, I'm always surprised to see him show up in Gondor.
Does Bilbo know that he is not capable of doing the job, or does he mean it? Isn't he making it virtually impossible for Frodo not to volunteer? Does he realize that?
Bilbo is breaking the tension. Elrond said the small and weak could do the job as well as the great and strong, and nobody is volunteering, so Bilbo tosses his own name into the ring just to see what happens. Yes, it puts more pressure on Frodo to step up, but it also makes it a little easier for Frodo to make that choice. It's kind of like after a big holiday dinner when everyone is still sitting at the table dreading the clean-up. When Mom finally makes a motion toward picking up a few dishes, the (adult) children will say, "Oh, let me do that!" Bilbo knows that the Ring isn't going to take itself to Mordor just like Mom knows the dishes aren't going to do themselves, so they get up to take on the job. It is a sincere effort and not just a hint to someone else. However, if they've raised the next generation right, the job will be taken off their hands so they can have a well-deserved rest.
It seems to him "as if" some other will was using his voice. Do you think another will was moving him? If so, is he still acting with "free will"? Or could it be the moral pressure of the expectations around him that makes him feel this way? Can we tell either way?
That's the big question, isn't it? I think the other will is simply his conscience, the "moral pressure of the expectations", as you say. Frodo does not want to undertake this quest, but he freely chooses to do so because after all that has happened and everything that has been discussed, it seems clear that he is the one who should do it.
Are we meant to have forgotten about Sam? When he made his outburst, was he expecting to be told he was to go with Frodo? Do you see parallels between this scene and the one at the Bag End window?
I certainly had forgotten about Sam, and yes, he is expecting to go along. Good comparison to the incident back at Bag End -- the eavesdropping, the discovery and recruitment. Of course, that time he was discovered unintentionally and this time he "put his foot in it" himself.
Where's Frodo?
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Feb 9 2008, 3:45pm
Post #3 of 11
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to the holiday dishes!
It's kind of like after a big holiday dinner when everyone is still sitting at the table dreading the clean-up. When Mom finally makes a motion toward picking up a few dishes, the (adult) children will say, "Oh, let me do that!"
That makes me think that Bilbo does understand that it's got to be either himself or Frodo, and his offer to take the Ring, as you say, does make it easier for Frodo to make the choice.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien
Feb 11 2008, 12:37am
Post #4 of 11
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Does Elrond have any idea who will be the "we" who will take the road? Is there any possibility he might go himself?
The whole council is using the pronoun "we."
"Then," said Glorfindel, let us cast it into the deeps..."
Galdor: "My heart tells me that Sauron will expect us to take the western way..."
Neither elf goes. Legolas gives his report but then says little. Gimli doesn't say a word. Gandalf is apparently the only one of "the wise" who go, other than Aragorn.
Does Bilbo know that he is not capable of doing the job, or does he mean it? Isn't he making it virtually impossible for Frodo not to volunteer? Does he realize that?
I like the dishes analogy but I also think Bilbo wishes he could go.
Is Frodo's reaction, "wonder[ing] to hear his own words", a psychologically realistic one? Have you ever had a moment like that? ... It seems to him "as if" some other will was using his voice. Do you think another will was moving him? If so, is he still acting with "free will"? Or could it be the moral pressure of the expectations around him that makes him feel this way? Can we tell either way?
I recall feeling surprised to hear myself say something out loud but I do think this suggests a whole lot. Frodo, like Bilbo once did, is discovering he is made of bolder stuff than he realized. I also think it suggests that the Ring has some hold over him and his better nature is perhaps being aided (perhaps by the Holy Spirit?) to do what is right. If you read the scene out of context, I think you could say he was being put under a lot of pressure (I especially like the bit of no one looking at him). Knowing Tolkien's bent, though, I think the fear in this situation is unhealtly and immoral and that doing his duty is the only choice he really has. Let's say Aragorn said he'd take it -- I hardly think Frodo could give the Ring to him. Frodo may imagine he can stay comfortably at Rivendell, but can he imagine giving up the Ring? Maybe, because he gave it to Bombadil, but the language in this passage suggests to me that the Ring is playing off of his fears.
Do you agree with Shippey, that Sam has misinterpreted what's going on? Or does he actually understand more than he tends to let people see? Again, can we tell either way?
Hmm. I see his point. Like you say, they have both volunteered for this lousy job, but Frodo really didn't have a choice. He has the illusion of choice but I think 1) he could not give up the ring so easily and 2) he must "do his duty."
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sador
Half-elven
Feb 11 2008, 6:38pm
Post #5 of 11
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Does Elrond have any idea who will be the "we" who will take the road? Is there any possibility he might go himself?
It would make sense, wouldn't it? He actually knows the way, unlike Gandalf or Aragorn.
But no, not really. He holds the fort in Rivendell, connecting the Havens with the other elf-realms, and has too many charges on his hands.
Does Bilbo know that he is not capable of doing the job, or does he mean it? Isn't he making it virtually impossible for Frodo not to volunteer? Does he realize that?
Well, he did refer to himself as a 'silly hobbit'. 
But I think he realises Gandalf and Elrond think Frodo was meant to do the job, and he tries to save him from it - as he is obviously incapable of it, his volunteering is a sort of reductio ad absurdum of the suggestion a hobbit should try.
Are we meant to have forgotten about Sam? When he made his outburst, was he expecting to be told he was to go with Frodo? Do you see parallels between this scene and the one at the Bag End window?
When I first read the book, at this stage Sam was my favourite character, so I didn't forget him.
I'm not sure he thought anything when he made his outburst; but of course, Gildor's company told him 'don't you leave him!', and Sam wasn't one to gainsay the Elves.
One marked difference between this scene and the one at Bag End is that there Sam was overjoyed by the mere prospect of traveling to Rivendell. But of course there are parallels, as a part of the wider parallel between this chapter and 'The Shadow of the Past'.
"lesser men with spades might have served you better" - Boromir
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elostirion74
Rohan
Feb 11 2008, 8:28pm
Post #6 of 11
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Does Elrond have any idea who will be the "we" who will take the road? Is there any possibility he might go himself?
I think Elrond has an idea of who will take the Road, he is a wise person after all and has had some time to ponder these things. He knows that Aragorn and Gandalf will go, even if he doesn't know if they will go into Mordor itself. I believe the only surprise for him is Pippin & Merry volunteering to go with the others - he would have expected some powerful elves to go instead.
Is Frodo's reaction, "wonder[ing] to hear his own words", a psychologically realistic one? Have you ever had a moment like that?
Well, no, honestly - I cannot recall having such a moment, but Frodo could possibly be wondering to hear his own words because he just seemed to have given in to the desire to stay in Rivendell. Still Frodo could be wondering how he has the courage to actually say the words.
It seems to him "as if" some other will was using his voice. Do you think another will was moving him?
No, the moral pressure of the expectations around him is a more likely example, especially considering how no-one is looking directly at him.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 12 2008, 3:51pm
Post #7 of 11
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Does Elrond have any idea who will be the "we" who will take the road?
Yeah, it’s all been decided long before now.
Is there any possibility he might go himself?
He’s a leader. He doesn’t go anywhere. It’s like General Sir Douglas Haig “leading” the British troops at the Somme. From a nice safe place in the rear.
Then Elrond widens the criteria for the job (or does he narrow them?) You don't have to be strong, or great, to do this:
"This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."
Sounds like the only qualifications are that they still be breathing and bother to show up.
And Bilbo takes the hint:
"Very well, very well, Master Elrond!" said Bilbo suddenly. "Say no more! It is plain enough what you are pointing at. Bilbo the silly hobbit started this affair, and Bilbo had better finish it, or himself...When ought I to start?"
Does Bilbo know that he is not capable of doing the job, or does he mean it?
He means it. Like he said, he found the ring so it’s his responsibility to dispose of it. It’s a matter of honor.
Isn't he making it virtually impossible for Frodo not to volunteer?
It’s already virtually impossible for Frodo not to volunteer. Bilbo convincing the Wise to let him go instead is Frodo’s only hope of getting out of it.
Does he realize that?
He realizes it is a matter of family responsibility and honor. He knows it requires a Baggins. He knows if he doesn’t do it, then yes, it falls to Frodo. That’s exactly why he steps forward first. To attempt to save Frodo.
Is Frodo's reaction, "wonder[ing] to hear his own words", a psychologically realistic one? Have you ever had a moment like that?
Yep.
It seems to him "as if" some other will was using his voice. Do you think another will was moving him?
It wouldn’t surprise me. It’s been emphasized over and over again how very powerful everyone here is. Except for the hobbits of course.
If so, is he still acting with "free will"?
Sure. Just not acting with *his* free will.
Or could it be the moral pressure of the expectations around him that makes him feel this way?
You think?
Can we tell either way?
I know which way to bet.
Elrond accepts Frodo's offer with great gravity, using the names of "all the mighty elf-friends of old, Hador, and Húrin, and Túrin, and Beren himself" to compare Frodo to.
Longwinded, isn’t he? Almost like he’s making a campaign speech.
But then the gravity is broken by Sam:
"But you won't send him off alone surely, Master?" cried Sam, unable to contain himself any longer, and jumping up from the corner where he had been quietly sitting on the floor.
"No indeed!" said Elrond, turning towards him with a smile. "You at least shall go with him. It is hardly possible to separate you from him, even when he is summoned to a secret council and you are not."
Sam sat down, blushing and muttering. "A nice pickle we have landed ourselves in, Mr. Frodo!" he said, shaking his head.
Are we meant to have forgotten about Sam?
I didn’t.
When he made his outburst, was he expecting to be told he was to go with Frodo?
He was before, wasn't he?
Do you see parallels between this scene and the one at the Bag End window?
Again, why the concern over whether Frodo is acting of his own free will when quite plainly Sam isn’t allowed to act of his own free will? Sam again is coerced into going.
Do you agree with Shippey, that Sam has misinterpreted what's going on?
Quite the opposite. Sam knows exactly what’s going on. He sees that Frodo is being “sent”. He’s under no illusion that Frodo is volunteering of his own free will.
Or does he actually understand more than he tends to let people see?
He’s been on the receiving end of this sort of thing before. He’s quite familiar with how this “volunteering” thing works.
Again, can we tell either way?
It’s obvious.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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elentari3018
Rohan
Feb 13 2008, 3:06am
Post #8 of 11
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Does Bilbo know that he is not capable of doing the job, or does he mean it? Isn't he making it virtually impossible for Frodo not to volunteer? Does he realize that? I would also like to add that Bilbo probably doesn't think he is up for the job *however* he is dreading the fact that Frodo would go in his place. Partly the reason why Frodo has the Ring is that Bilbo left it for him so definitely there is some guilt in this arrangement too. How could he subject his cousin to a journey that is so darn dangerous and not feel wretched about it?
He is breaking the tension of the moment but Bilbo also wants to have a last minute stab in trying to do the task that he would've had if he had not left the Ring to Frodo.
An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
"I will go to Mordor, though I do not know the way."
I'm surprised that part wasn't added since that is one of my fave quotes from Frodo. :)
These two sentences always grab me because here Frodo is, an innocent hobbit from the Shire expected to find a way that the "great ones could not go, or dared not go." And i just feel sympathy for Frodo but i know that deep down, he knows that it is destiny to go forward in this dangerous and hopeless Quest.
It seems to him "as if" some other will was using his voice. Do you think another will was moving him? If so, is he still acting with "free will"? Or could it be the moral pressure of the expectations around him that makes him feel this way? Can we tell either way?
"As if" didn't mean anything to me in this instance or in my reading of it. I think he is acting out of free will and is pressed to make the decision that he did. Moral pressure is indeed what moved him to finally claim to do what is expected. I think it is more self expectation than the Council member's expectations. Though Frodo *has* displayed marks of courage in the beginning part of the journey.
And wherever Frodo goes Sam intends to go too, so if Frodo's in a pickle, Sam going to jump right into the pickle too!
Or does he actually understand more than he tends to let people see?
I think Sam knows exactly what is going on and i agree with you that both Frodo and Sam are both in a pickle. Sam actually understands more than he tends to let people to see and it is out of loyalty and dedication that Sam is following along.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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a.s.
Valinor
Feb 15 2008, 1:53am
Post #9 of 11
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 Like Pavlov's dog, aren't I?
“God does not speak with man through the medium of matter, with vibrations of air causing His voice to be heard by the ears of the body…But he speaks by means of the truth itself, and to all who can hear with the mind…” St. Augustine
A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
If there is such a thing as "free" will, then it involves the ability to choose freely. I don't believe another will is speaking for Frodo; I do believe another will is assisting Frodo to make the inevitable choice here. He can feel the prompting of that other will, but the words he is speaking are his own, and the decision to speak is his own.
That's what makes this passage so moving, so memorable and tear-inducing: this small hobbit bowing to his fate or accepting his mission, according to the reader's interpretation. I consider this moment to be akin to Mary's "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord" moment, when she freely chooses to do what God set aside for her to do from the beginning of time.
This is Tolkien working out what free will at the intersection of Providence looks like, from the point of view of one small creature who is accepting a personal mission with understanding of the consequences. Frodo is sacrificing his life here, and is going to walk all the way to Mordor understanding the horror of it.
Tom Shippey, in The Road to Middle-Earth, has a comment about this moment, calling Sam "as obtuse as his father" for saying that both he and Frodo have landed themselves in a "pickle"; according to Shippey, "Sam got himself into trouble, but Frodo did not."
Surely, from Sam's point of view, it's actually Frodo who got himself into a pickle - by volunteering to take the Ring to Mordor. And wherever Frodo goes Sam intends to go too, so if Frodo's in a pickle, Sam going to jump right into the pickle too!
Do you agree with Shippey, that Sam has misinterpreted what's going on? Or does he actually understand more than he tends to let people see? Again, can we tell either way?
I'm not sure we can "tell either way", but yes, I think Sam is being obtuse here. Perhaps, to give him the benefit of the doubt, he is being humorous in the face of strong emotion, as hobbits are wont to do! But to think Frodo has landed himself in a pickle is to remain blind to the profound decision being made here by Frodo; as though Frodo has volunteered for something which will just cause him some problems to work out, instead of clearly recognizing the inevitability of his mission and bowing to it.
I'll have to re-read this part of Shippey, but if Frodo has accepted a mission that is in actuality the only possible alternative, then perhaps Sam is also hearing that same inner voice that is moving Frodo. Perhaps Sam has a mission, that isn't understood yet by the movers and shakers at the Council, but only by Sam himself, and that's to be Frodo's servant in the most humble sense of that word. No Sam, no successful journey, after all. No servant, no way for master to succeed in his own mission, as it turns out.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."
"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.
"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 5:57am
Post #10 of 11
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“in both cases Sam is an uninvited eavesdropper”
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One of my favorite discussions on TORN.
Is there any possibility [Elrond] might go himself?
“I fear to take the Ring…”
Does Bilbo know that he is not capable of doing the job, or does he mean it?
Bilbo may be as physically strong as he was sixty-eight years ago – there are hints in the text that he still hasn’t aged. And Gandalf says his “word was meant”. But he cannot take the Ring back. See also some of Silent Lion’s comments in the previous week’s discussion.
Do you think another will was moving him? If so, is he still acting with "free will"?
In a letter, Tolkien wrote that “Frodo undertook his quest out of love”.
I like Bilbo’s insight about Gandalf’s advice.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 5:58am
Post #11 of 11
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Good point about Merry and Pippin.
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Elrond did mean the “we”, but Gandalf overrode him.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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