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FarFromHome
Doriath
Feb 6 2008, 3:41pm
Post #1 of 10
(1492 views)
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The Council of Elrond 4: Showdown
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As Boromir ends his tale by describing how he sought Rivendell in order to ask Elrond, "greatest of lore-masters", the answer to the riddle of the dream verse, Aragorn enters the conversation.
"And here in the house of Elrond more shall be made clear to you' said Aragorn, standing up. He cast his sword upon the table that stood before Elrond, and the blade was in two pieces. "Here is the Sword that was Broken!" he said.
Why does Aragorn choose to intervene personally at this point, instead of deferring to Elrond?
Elrond now introduces Aragorn for the first time:
"He is Aragorn son of Arathorn," said Elrond; "and he is descended through many fathers from Isildur Elendil's son of Minas Ithil. He is the Chief of the Dúnedain in the North, and few are now left of that folk."
Should Elrond have made the introduction sooner?
Boromir is not the only one who was unaware of Aragorn's true identity. Frodo too is surprised when he hears Aragorn's lineage, and suddenly realizes that Aragorn's ancestor once claimed the Ring:
"Then it belongs to you, and not to me at all!" cried Frodo in amazement, springing to his feet, as if he expected the Ring to be demanded at once.
Why do you suppose Frodo springs to his feet? Is he preparing to hand over the Ring if it's "demanded at once", or do you think he's about to defend his own possession of it?
Elrond now asks Frodo to hold up the Ring for everyone to see, and Frodo responds by feeling "sudden shame and fear... a great reluctance to reveal the Ring, and a loathing at its touch."
Is this the Ring itself playing on Frodo's feelings? Why would it want Frodo to feel a "loathing" for it? Might there be an element perhaps of Frodo himself feeling ashamed of his own attachment to the Ring?
Once Boromir has understood that this is the Halfling of the verse, his interest turns again to the Fate of Minas Tirith, and interest in the Ring is lost.
Does Frodo just sit down quietly again, and put the Ring away? Why doesn't Elrond wait until the fate of Ring becomes the focus of attention (some pages ahead), before getting Frodo to show it?
The conversation between Boromir and Aragorn moves on, and Bilbo, frustrated by Boromir's doubts about Aragorn, recites the verse that we first saw in Gandalf's letter: "All that is gold does not glitter..."
I think this is the first time we are told that the verse was made by Bilbo. Does this make it more or less significant? Is it a prophecy? Is Bilbo a prophet?
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Feb 7 2008, 4:18pm
Post #2 of 10
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Why does Aragorn choose to intervene personally at this point, instead of deferring to Elrond?
The sword is the first riddle of the poem and Aragorn has it with him, so he brings it out to make it clear that he is the rightful owner of the actual sword. Show, don't tell.
Should Elrond have made the introduction sooner?
When Frodo arrived at the Council, everyone else was already there. At that time, Frodo was introduced to everyone that he didn't know. Presumably the others had already been introduced to each other, but probably by name only. Aragorn's heritage was on a need-to-know basis at that point.
Why do you suppose Frodo springs to his feet?
He's surprised. Shocked, even.
Is he preparing to hand over the Ring if it's "demanded at once", or do you think he's about to defend his own possession of it?
I don't think he knows what he's preparing to do. He wants to do what is right, as evidenced by saying, "it belongs to you and not to me". I think if Aragorn did ask him for the Ring at that point, Frodo might have been able to give it up.
Why doesn't Elrond wait until the fate of Ring becomes the focus of attention (some pages ahead), before getting Frodo to show it?
The dream-poem/prophecy has been the topic of discussion, so Elrond asking Frodo to stand and display the Ring both explains the poem and fulfills the prophecy.
I think this is the first time we are told that the verse was made by Bilbo. Does this make it more or less significant? Is it a prophecy? Is Bilbo a prophet?
Well, it makes me more impressed with Bilbo's poetic abilities than I had been. I don't know that it's a prophecy as much as optimism at that point. The reforging of Narsil and crowning of Aragorn as King of Gondor and Arnor are things that are hoped for. "Prophecy" to me suggests a vague or mysterious prediction that can only be understood afterward, like Faramir's dream. This poem seems pretty clear right now. Bilbo wrote it after he learned Aragorn's history and aspirations. It's an excellent poem, but I wouldn't call it prophecy.
Where's Frodo?
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7ofEowyn
Lindon
Feb 8 2008, 6:43am
Post #3 of 10
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Bilbo's verse ... He made it knowing Aragorn's history & the expectations for him. Even Elrond demanded (in the appendices?) that the expectations/prophecies be fulfilled before he could imagine giving permission for Arwen to wed & give up her life. I think it's a beautific embodiment & summation of all the weight that hung upon Aragorns shoulders.
--- "I can fight" ---
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Feb 8 2008, 5:40pm
Post #4 of 10
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I think it's a beautific embodiment & summation of all the weight that hung upon Aragorns shoulders.
It sounds rather like a prophecy - I think it's all those future verbs: A light from the shadows shall spring... and so on. But Bilbo says he wrote it after Aragorn himself told him what was expected of him. I think perhaps Bilbo had more faith in Aragorn's ability to fulfill his destiny than even Elrond did!
I think the verse sounds very much like a prophecy when we first hear it, in Gandalf's letter, because we don't know at that point that this is "just" Bilbo's version of Aragorn's destiny. It certainly sounds like a prophecy the way we hear it in the movie! But what is a prophecy anyway? Gandalf tells Bilbo in The Hobbit (I think) that just because Bilbo was involved in making something happen, that doesn't mean that it wasn't Fated to happen. And perhaps, in the same way, just because Bilbo made the verse doesn't mean it can't be prophetic!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 9 2008, 11:01pm
Post #5 of 10
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of the old songs have turned out to be true, after a fashion!" said Bilbo.
"Of course!" said Gandalf. "And why should not they prove true? Surely you don't disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself? You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit? You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!"
Bilbo did appreciate "prophecies": perhaps that's why he wrote (at least) one of his own!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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sador
Gondolin
Feb 11 2008, 12:35pm
Post #6 of 10
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Why does Aragorn choose to intervene personally at this point, instead of deferring to Elrond?
Let's quote from 'Farewell to Lorien'
He believed he was called. And if he knew the son of the Steward, he probably believed that was the reason the dream came to Faramir first.
Should Elrond have made the introduction sooner?
He didn't have time. Boronir arrived only "in the grey morning". He probably came late to the council, as he needed to wash and eat.
Why do you suppose Frodo springs to his feet? Is he preparing to hand over the Ring if it's "demanded at once", or do you think he's about to defend his own possession of it?
At this moment, he probably could hand the Ring over. Sam did, and Frodo was before the long months of trying desperately to "Save the Precious".
I think this is the first time we are told that the verse was made by Bilbo. Does this make it more or less significant? Is it a prophecy? Is Bilbo a prophet?
Bilbo is not a prophet in his own right, just a proud poet. But ordinary people sometimes do prophesy, and I think Gandalf guessed this poem was such a prophecy - which is another reason why he included it in his letter.
"lesser men with spades might have served you better" - Boromir
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Feb 11 2008, 9:11pm
Post #7 of 10
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Why does Aragorn choose to intervene personally at this point, instead of deferring to Elrond?
To get attention. You ever think how much noise and clatter two pieces of heavy metal would make when thrown on a table?
Elrond now introduces Aragorn for the first time:
"He is Aragorn son of Arathorn," said Elrond; "and he is descended through many fathers from Isildur Elendil's son of Minas Ithil. He is the Chief of the Dúnedain in the North, and few are now left of that folk."
Should Elrond have made the introduction sooner?
He should have handed out copies of a roster and issued name tags.
Boromir is not the only one who was unaware of Aragorn's true identity. Frodo too is surprised when he hears Aragorn's lineage, and suddenly realizes that Aragorn's ancestor once claimed the Ring:
"Then it belongs to you, and not to me at all!" cried Frodo in amazement, springing to his feet, as if he expected the Ring to be demanded at once.
Why do you suppose Frodo springs to his feet? Is he preparing to hand over the Ring if it's "demanded at once", or do you think he's about to defend his own possession of it?
He’s ready to run like a rabbit if they try to take it from him.
Elrond now asks Frodo to hold up the Ring for everyone to see, and Frodo responds by feeling "sudden shame and fear... a great reluctance to reveal the Ring, and a loathing at its touch."
Is this the Ring itself playing on Frodo's feelings?
Frodo both loves and hates the ring.
Why would it want Frodo to feel a "loathing" for it?
It’s interesting that Frodo’s only previous two uses of the word were regarding Gollum.
Might there be an element perhaps of Frodo himself feeling ashamed of his own attachment to the Ring?
This is what everyone has been talking of. It’s the ugly growth hidden under his shirt that he’s suddenly asked to display in polite company.
Once Boromir has understood that this is the Halfling of the verse, his interest turns again to the Fate of Minas Tirith, and interest in the Ring is lost.
Does Frodo just sit down quietly again, and put the Ring away?
I’d think he’d head for the buffet now he’s up.
Why doesn't Elrond wait until the fate of Ring becomes the focus of attention (some pages ahead), before getting Frodo to show it?
Aragorn noisily clanging his sword on the table doubtless put him off his script.
The conversation between Boromir and Aragorn moves on, and Bilbo, frustrated by Boromir's doubts about Aragorn, recites the verse that we first saw in Gandalf's letter: "All that is gold does not glitter..."
I think this is the first time we are told that the verse was made by Bilbo. Does this make it more or less significant?
Yep.
Is it a prophecy?
It’s a riddle.
Is Bilbo a prophet?
He’s a hobbit. Hobbits love riddles.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 5:45am
Post #8 of 10
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Why does Aragorn choose to intervene personally at this point, instead of deferring to Elrond?
Let's quote from ‘Farewell to Lórien’:
Quote
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He believed he was called. And if he knew the son of the Steward, he probably believed that was the reason the dream came to Faramir first.
I think this is the passage you intended to cite:
His own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword help to deliver Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery.
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Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 5:46am
Post #9 of 10
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Darkstone earlier:
Any thoughts or comments on weapons?
Don’t handle weapons you don’t know how to use… If you really really want a weapon for home self defense consider a plugged barrel starter pistol with very loud blanks; if you’re burglarized in the middle of the night you probably won’t hit anything anyway (and you really don’t want to), burglars run like rabbits at any noise…
Empahasis added.
Darkstone later:
Is [Frodo] preparing to hand over the Ring if it’s “demanded at once”, or do you think he’s about to defend his own possession of it?
He’s ready to run like a rabbit if they try to take it from him.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 22 2009, 6:42am
Post #10 of 10
(1019 views)
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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