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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2014, 1:27am
Post #1 of 76
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Unavoidable plot hole??
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There is going to be a inevitable confrontation between the white council and the necromancer (sauron) and we already know Gandalf knows it is sauron. Bilbo has to eventually tell Gandalf about his magic ring, so Gandalf will have just battled sauron (the lord of the rings) in dol-guldur and now he is shown a magical ring of power…It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together...
The flames of war are upon you.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 19 2014, 1:34am
Post #2 of 76
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I've always thought that was a weakness in the book.
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Of the 20 rings of power in Middle-earth, the fate of 19 of them are known - and Bilbo has one that makes him invisible. For one of the Wise, Gandalf was a bit dim on the subject.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2014, 1:43am
Post #3 of 76
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well it was one thing in the book because in the book...
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there is no sauron, but these films are very much about sauron. I don't see how PJ is going to get around this..
The flames of war are upon you.
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Faleel
Nargothrond
Apr 19 2014, 1:45am
Post #4 of 76
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Saruman's memory wiping device ;)
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Faleel
Nargothrond
Apr 19 2014, 1:46am
Post #5 of 76
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His love of the halflings leaf, has clearly slowed his mind...
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Apr 19 2014, 1:48am
Post #6 of 76
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I think Saruman's line about the Ring being swept off to sea is as good as it's going to get. The White Council was sure that the Ring was lost, and there wasn't that much of a reason to suspect that Bilbo's Ring was Sauron's.
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2014, 1:50am
Post #7 of 76
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if confronted with a magical ring of power right after defeating the lord of the rings and still he cannot connect the dots than i hope PJ shows Gandalf "lighting up" right before Bilbo reveals the ring!
The flames of war are upon you.
(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Apr 19 2014, 1:50am)
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2014, 1:53am
Post #8 of 76
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they just fought the Lord of the Rings why wouldn't they suspect the ring to be the one ring? All Gandalf had to do was throw it in the fire to see what happens, "Mordor runes".
The flames of war are upon you.
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Faleel
Nargothrond
Apr 19 2014, 1:54am
Post #9 of 76
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"There are many magic rings in this world..."
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2014, 1:56am
Post #10 of 76
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so than throw it in the fire to make sure its not the one ring since you just
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battled the Lord of the Rings, can't hurt right?
The flames of war are upon you.
(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Apr 19 2014, 1:57am)
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Shadow&Flame
Registered User
Apr 19 2014, 2:10am
Post #11 of 76
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Gandalf doesn't yet know to throw it in the fire. . .
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To follow the movie (and the book to some extent), Gandalf doesn't actually learn about the "throwing it into the fire" strategy until The Fellowship of the Ring when he visits the Minas Tirith library and studies up on the history and lore of the ring. Immediately following his research, a light bulb goes off and he rushes to the Shire to do just that.
The movie is showing more Sauron stuff, which makes us think that Gandalf and the White Council are super knowledgeable about the One Ring - so they have to deal with this delicately to show us that in reality, Gandalf doesn't know all the ins and outs just yet. We assume he does because we've seen LOTR and he's an ancient wizard and is the bomb. But PJ needs to exert his craft to make sure Gandalf doesn't look stupid bridging from TABA/ITF to Fellowship of the Ring, considering how much he's played up the Sauron angle through DOS.
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simplyaven
Hithlum
Apr 19 2014, 2:12am
Post #12 of 76
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The Lord Of The Rings is The One Ring
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One to rule them all. The Ring. No one else. It is infused with someone else's power and has a will of his own but it's a ring. The One Ring is the Lord. That's why the trilogy is named liked that, it's not about Sauron, it's about the ring.  How could they defeat the Lord Of The Rings if The One Ring was not destroyed at the time? This is the only way to defeat the Lord Of The Rings. Whoever masters the One Ring will rule over the others for as long as s/he possesses it because it's the ring that rules and its power overwhelmes the rest, not the person's.
Middle earth recipes archive
I believe
(This post was edited by simplyaven on Apr 19 2014, 2:15am)
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tsmith675
Mithlond
Apr 19 2014, 2:28am
Post #13 of 76
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"There are many magic rings in this world and none of them should be used lightly!"
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And we also don't know when Gandalf actually finds out Bilbo has the ring. So when Gandalf found out may have been long after the battle at Dol Guldur. Not saying Gandalf should have forgotten about it, but it wouldn't be so fresh in his mind.
It seems to me that, at least in the movie universe, the chances Bilbo had the One Ring were like the chances of having a million dollar lottery ticket. So the thought may never have even entered Gandalf's head. However, it always seemed to me that Gandalf was extremely suspicious of the ring in FotR, but he didn't want to believe that his poor friend Bilbo would have to carry that burden.
Plus, he didn't know about the Elvish runes showing in fire until he travels to Minas Tirith to research, shortly before telling Frodo to "Keep it secret, keep it safe." So he wouldn't have known of a way to check whether it was the One Ring anyway, until he returned from doing his research. And that's when he did check and found out his suspicions were true.
I don't think it's so much a plot hole. I just think it is a case of Gandalf not wanting to believe it was the One, until he sees the effect it's been having on Bilbo. As the suspicion grows, he has to go to Minas Tirith to research the One and when he sees that fire brings out the Runes he goes back, has Frodo throw it into the fire and finds out it is the One.
Our destiny lies above us.
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2014, 3:32am
Post #14 of 76
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i suppose its all about interpretation
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Sauron is the lord of the rings, he created the rings thus he is a lord over them.
The flames of war are upon you.
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2014, 3:34am
Post #15 of 76
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it wouldn't be fresh in his mind?
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Bilbo has to reveal it to Gandalf by the end of Into the Fire or TABA, do you think this won't happen?
The flames of war are upon you.
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Cirashala
Doriath
Apr 19 2014, 5:20am
Post #16 of 76
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what bothered me, especially in the books
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is that it took Gandalf 17 YEARS to return to the Shire after he left seeking answers!
If he even had an INKLING that it was the One, why the heck did it take him THAT long?
At any rate, I agree with your lottery ticket. Even Sauron, the creator of said ring, couldn't have fathomed (the ring itself did not intend!) that a mere HOBBIT would have picked it up!
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Nira
Menegroth
Apr 19 2014, 5:25am
Post #17 of 76
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Good point! I had not thought of it before.
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Were there magic rings that were not created by Sauron? Maybe magic rings were in vogue for a time.
"Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?" -Samwise
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Nira
Menegroth
Apr 19 2014, 5:28am
Post #18 of 76
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I thought the same thing! This is one of the changes I like in the movies//
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"Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?" -Samwise
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2014, 5:30am
Post #19 of 76
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in the books too and of course in the films. Remember Tolkien went back and wrote that the necromancer was sauron so the plot hole is in the books as well.
The flames of war are upon you.
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2014, 5:32am
Post #20 of 76
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Gandalf waited 60 years!!! knowing Mordor was growing stronger and bolder.
The flames of war are upon you.
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Cirashala
Doriath
Apr 19 2014, 6:03am
Post #21 of 76
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Treebeard's mantra of "Don't be hasty" must have rubbed off on Gandalf 
There's only one plot hole solution for PJ- to invent something (because Tolkien certainly left that hole open too). So it's not a matter of whether or not it exists so much as it's whether or not we would be willing to tolerate another PJ created thing in film verse. I tolerate most of his additions (I think he's in best form when he and Tolkien meet on common ground invention wise- meaning that his invention still fits into ME as Tolkien created it- hence why Tauriel's starlight speech is one of my most "Tolkien" and ME moments in the films, along with Aragorn and Theoden's respective war speeches and Sam's I can carry you moment).
So the question is- which would bother everyone more? A plot hole, or a filled PJ invention?
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2014, 6:42am
Post #22 of 76
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it should be interesting to see how PJ handles this in TABA or
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"ITF" now?? Especially now that PJ is coming right out and saying this is sauron in DOS.
The flames of war are upon you.
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Eleniel
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2014, 6:46am
Post #23 of 76
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Part of the 17 years was spent searching for Gollum....
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with Aragorn - Gandalf needed to be able to piece the story together. I believe, in "The Shadow of the Past" Gandalf mentions setting the Wood Elves to watch for Gollum after he left the Misty Mountains, and they did track him for a while before losing his trail when he turned south towards Mordor. Aragorn finally captured Gollum on the borders of Mordor and Gandalf was able to determine how the Ring had come into his possession, and crucially, how much Sauron had been able to learn from Gollum. I think people tend to forget this all happened in that time period after Bilbo's 111th birthday. In fact, most of it happens in 3017, the year before the events of LotR -
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Third_Age_3017
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Cirashala
Doriath
Apr 19 2014, 6:59am
Post #24 of 76
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Ok that makes a little more sense
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considering Gollum was hard to find. And I know the rangers were watching the Shire, but I am a bit surprised that, if Gandalf still suspected it, why he left it with Frodo, rather than sending it to somewhere a bit safer, like Rivendell? Unless he thought that the trip itself was too dangerous 
Doesn't explain that he wasn't searching prior to the birthday party though- when did Bilbo reveal that he had the ring to Gandalf in the first place? Surely Gandalf would have had at least an idea that a magic ring makes one invisible and also surely had heard of Bilbo's "disappearing act" from the company or whatnot (and he was there when Bilbo admitted to Thranduil he had burglared his halls and gave him the emeralds in repayment for his "hospitality"- how did Gandalf not put that two and two together that elves wouldn't possibly miss a hobbit? I know they are easily able to walk silently and hide quickly, but we're talking ELVES here...they have extraordinary senses, and even in the book kept hearing him, or noticing the wobbly unexplained shadow on occasion...and this was nodded to in the movies also (Thranduil and Legolas on two separate occasions heard Bilbo but did not see him- you can tell by their expression and confusion and how they paused, glanced around, and acted like they had heard something).
At any rate, the movie will likely have to come up with some explanation, as we do know about the 60 year movieverse gap. I am just curious as to what that explanation will be, as Gandalf is intelligent in both the movies and the books, but in the book he didn't quite get it until 77 years after Bilbo acquired it. And I'm sure that PJ is going to mention it at some point- get Bilbo to confess about the ring or something at least.
But then again- the dwarves haven't actually SEEN Bilbo use the ring- only Smaug has (and he's going to die next film hopefully early). Bilbo hasn't even told the dwarves he has it, unlike in the book when it was revealed in Mirkwood. And Smaug doesn't know why Bilbo was invisible. So I suppose they could pull it off by not even mentioning it, and still allow it to lead into LOTR mysterious as ever.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 19 2014, 7:16am
Post #25 of 76
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If we think about it too much ...
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The whole story will fall apart ... "why didn't the eagles fly them to Mount Doom". 
Perhaps the White Council think they have defeated the Necromancer after the Battle of Dol Guldur, and thus have no reason to worry. Maybe Bilbo doesn't tell Gandalf about the Ring until his 111th birthday party.
We know what happens in Tolkien's canon, but anything could happen in the movie.
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