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If Tolkien was alive, how would you think his opinion of PJ's movie interpretation?
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Feb 20 2014, 9:27am

Post #1 of 108 (2280 views)
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If Tolkien was alive, how would you think his opinion of PJ's movie interpretation? Can't Post

Will he be a purist?

Will he be okay with changes provided it is not directed in a manner that looks ridiculous? For example, while he may concede to having Legolas be present in the Hobbit, and even agree to a creation of a new female Elf Character, such as Tauriel, will he be okay with let's the say infamous barrel scene?

Or will he be glad he did not live long enough to witness is screen adaptation?


Shagrat
Gondor

Feb 20 2014, 9:49am

Post #2 of 108 (1397 views)
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I think he'd be a lot more tolerant and appreciative than some think [In reply to] Can't Post

I recall his letters show him to have been quite pragmatic about adaptations of his works, recognizing the need for certain changes. I think there's a good few things he'd like, and a good few things he wouldn't like. And I'm not going to be one of those who'd say what these would be, because, frankly, who really knows?


7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Feb 20 2014, 10:01am

Post #3 of 108 (1285 views)
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It's difficult to speculate... [In reply to] Can't Post

We may never know, and J.R.R. Tolkien's intentions can be difficult to interpret. I do believe that he may not be as negative as Christopher Tolkien.

I can understand why Christopher and the Tolkien Estate in general are wary of adaptations, but it almost seems like they want to have complete control on how J.R.R. Tolkien's world is presented.


Arannir
Valinor


Feb 20 2014, 10:47am

Post #4 of 108 (1310 views)
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I am afraid... [In reply to] Can't Post

... this is a very difficult discussion and may easily lead to fights.


I would only like to say four things.

First of all, one should not unerestimate the possibility of him being quite tolerant when it comes to changes, looking at his comments regarding earlier script-attempts.

Secondly, it is important here not to mistake Christopher's opinion with the one his father might have had.

Third, JRRT might very well not have been a big fan of modern movie-making altogether and of an adaption in general - but I could very well see him being quite fond of the craftmanship and detail that went into the movies, as well as the thought behind many decisions. Given how he struggled himself with some criticism (see signature), I am sure he would have had some sort of appreciation for the approach PJ and Co took and the love towards his work behind it.

And last, I am almost certain that he would not have seen his own works as infallible and holy as some movie-critics and self-proclaimed lore-guardians have done.


ďAll good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

(This post was edited by Arannir on Feb 20 2014, 10:50am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 20 2014, 11:06am

Post #5 of 108 (1253 views)
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It's a question with no answer.... [In reply to] Can't Post

How could someone who was born in the 1890s and died in the 1970s come to grips with all the technological changes there have been in film-making since his time, let alone the changes in society?

If JRR Tolkien were alive now he would be a product of a different time and culture. He wouldn't be the same man who wrote the books - and the books themselves would be different too.

All you're doing is picking out things you don't like in the film and slanting the question in such a way as to imply that those would be things Tolkien would object to.

In his own time Tolkien was willing to consider film adaptation. He was an intelligent man, so he would have understood that adaptation for film must of its very nature involve change from the printed page. If the films had happened in his lifetime he would probably have been amenable to some changes and uncomfortable with others, and intrigued by the processes involved in making the film. Letters show that he was modest about his own work. But he believed that filming the stories was impossible, and at that time he was right.


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 20 2014, 11:21am

Post #6 of 108 (1183 views)
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Brilliantly said [In reply to] Can't Post

Another much similarly controversial topic is Walt Disney. There's a lot of back and forth among Disney fans as to whether recent changes to Disneyland and the company would have gone down well with the Man.

But in the end we cannot know and anything we say is purely hypothetical.

But one thing I am certain of is that Chris Tolkien is way too harsh in his critique of the adaptations. Fine, these movies are action movies (or else they would not have made any money) but they're the best action movies out there. And even if that irks you then just realise that these movies have lead to a greater appreciation, recognition and understanding of your father's lifelong legacy!

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Bishop
Gondor


Feb 20 2014, 12:22pm

Post #7 of 108 (1219 views)
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He would love LOTR and hate THE HOBBIT [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 20 2014, 12:34pm

Post #8 of 108 (1191 views)
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Ehh not so sure [In reply to] Can't Post

LOTR was less faithful to the source material IMO. I don't get why people think most of TTT is less controversial than AUJ and DOS combined... A lot of odd deviances there.

The Hobbit movies still retain the essence of the source material, covering literally every scene in the book while embellishing everything.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Feb 20 2014, 12:42pm

Post #9 of 108 (1191 views)
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after the film rights were sold... [In reply to] Can't Post

... JRR Tolkien wrote: 'No film nor any 'version' in another medium could appear satisfactory to any devoted and attentive reader. On the other hand some of the greater pictorial and dramatic scenes could, with modern resources, be a moving experience. All possible precautions have been taken that the story should be presented without serious mutilation and without alteration or alterations.'

JRRT Chronology, Hammond and Scull

And yes, well before the film rights were sold Tolkien understood that cuts must be made, and even suggested some cuts within a given scenario. I'm sure he thought some changes were 'necessary' or arguably so, but Tolkien also noted in a letter: 'The canons of narrative art in any medium cannot be wholly different; and the failure of poor films is often precisely in exaggeration and the intrusion of unwanted matter owing to not perceiving where the core of the original lies.'


Well, film fans are going to interpret that one way, film Unfans another, but if you want to see how he reacted to some changes however [specific changes but changes nonetheless], alterations that he saw as 'needless', see his reaction to the Zimmerman letter...

... one example of which is that he noted that Gandalf should not 'splutter'. Seemingly little 'changes' to some can be notable to others.


macfalk
Valinor


Feb 20 2014, 1:02pm

Post #10 of 108 (1131 views)
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I doubt that.... // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Elarie
Grey Havens

Feb 20 2014, 1:47pm

Post #11 of 108 (1148 views)
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I think the man who gave us hobbits... [In reply to] Can't Post

would have appreciated the beautiful way Bag End and the Shire were put on the screen. So much of his work has a theme of 'going home' and protecting one's home woven into it, and I think the Shire holds a special place in that sense.


VoronwŽ_the_Faithful
Valinor

Feb 20 2014, 1:58pm

Post #12 of 108 (1114 views)
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There you go again [In reply to] Can't Post

Being all reasonable and all.
Will it never end?
Tongue

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 20 2014, 3:13pm

Post #13 of 108 (1054 views)
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Not if I can help it! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Feb 20 2014, 3:19pm

Post #14 of 108 (1074 views)
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None of us can know... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I think the only person who might be in a position to make an educated guess would be his son Christopher.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 20 2014, 3:52pm

Post #15 of 108 (1059 views)
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First, I think that he'd be surprised [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't believe that Tokien ever guessed at how advanced special effects for films would become. He seemed convinced that the look and feel of Middle-earth could never be reproduced on-screen.

Tolkien might even have been impressed with the sincerity behind Peter Jackson's attempt to adapt The Lord of the Rings for the silver screen. Would he have ultimately approved though? That, I cannot say. My guess would be that he might find more to his liking in the LotR films than in the movies of The Hobbit.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 20 2014, 3:53pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 20 2014, 4:07pm

Post #16 of 108 (1039 views)
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Yes, that's true... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but remember that he is not his father, and is in a very different position as the guardian of his father's work.

He doesn't always know what his father intended (which of us does, of our own parents, once we can no longer ask them?) and he couldn't possibly know how his father would have reacted to all the changes that have taken place in the decades since his death. It would be unreasonable to ask that of anyone.

Christopher Tolkien has his own opinion on this, which I respect completely, but it is his, not his father's.


Elanor of Rohan
Lorien


Feb 20 2014, 4:19pm

Post #17 of 108 (1063 views)
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Christopher Tolkien grew up listening [In reply to] Can't Post

to his father's stories. Someone defined him "Tolkien's first fan", so he is the staunchest of purists.
We must respect his opinions but, I agree, he is not JRR Tolkien. By the way, Tolkien had three other children, one of them was a priest, the last one, Priscilla, maybe is still alive. Has any of you ever heard her express an opinion on such matters?


book Gandalf
Rohan


Feb 20 2014, 4:34pm

Post #18 of 108 (1004 views)
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endless [In reply to] Can't Post

you can be certain he had a wide range of opinions on all the facets of tolkien related adaptations he is human after all. im sure hed have love one actor, and maybe not another..


i dont think you can really answer the question. i thinkits wrong to try, and no one is anywhere close to being able to.

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.

(This post was edited by book Gandalf on Feb 20 2014, 4:34pm)


fingolfin_nc
Bree


Feb 20 2014, 4:38pm

Post #19 of 108 (1040 views)
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This is perfect [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... this is a very difficult discussion and may easily lead to fights.


I would only like to say four things.

First of all, one should not unerestimate the possibility of him being quite tolerant when it comes to changes, looking at his comments regarding earlier script-attempts.

Secondly, it is important here not to mistake Christopher's opinion with the one his father might have had.

Third, JRRT might very well not have been a big fan of modern movie-making altogether and of an adaption in general - but I could very well see him being quite fond of the craftmanship and detail that went into the movies, as well as the thought behind many decisions. Given how he struggled himself with some criticism (see signature), I am sure he would have had some sort of appreciation for the approach PJ and Co took and the love towards his work behind it.

And last, I am almost certain that he would not have seen his own works as infallible and holy as some movie-critics and self-proclaimed lore-guardians have done.


Well said.


book Gandalf
Rohan


Feb 20 2014, 5:06pm

Post #20 of 108 (1007 views)
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mayb [In reply to] Can't Post

well you could also say the opposite to all these things, people change opinions, people react to things differently.

saying he would be tolerant to changes, is exactly the same as saying he would have hated them, you just dont know what he would have thought, so i think we should stop trying.

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Elskidor
Rohan


Feb 20 2014, 5:21pm

Post #21 of 108 (974 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

He would be involved in the making of these movies for starters, and seeing as he was constantly changing things until due date, I'd say he would welcome many changes, along with the fact he always envisioned rewriting the Hobbit anyhow. I do not agree with the purists that hate the movies and use Tolkien as an excuse and say he'd be rolling in his grave right now. I don't think that is how it would be at all.

ROUND 9 is up! Tolkien Elimination Game Finals (Part 1)

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=715402;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

or found in the Pollantir


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 20 2014, 5:22pm

Post #22 of 108 (997 views)
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And yet, [In reply to] Can't Post

that would negate the purpose of a discussion board.


In Reply To
so i think we should stop trying.


Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


thursday_next
The Shire


Feb 20 2014, 5:24pm

Post #23 of 108 (992 views)
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'the intrusion of unwanted matter'....... [In reply to] Can't Post

...there goes the man how gave us Tom Bombadil and Fog On The Barrow Downs, which have no purpose in the main plot of the book as a whole, other than explaining that the dagger of Merry was from Westernesse. There must have been other ways of doing this.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Tom Bombadil (up to a point), but 'the intrusion of unwanted matter' seems apt.

If I were to watch the LOTR with Tolkien, I'd hold my hands over his eyes so that he didn't see a burning Denethor run 500 yards and launch himself from the Place of the Fountain to his doom. I think Tolkien would have had issues with that.



Cool

'But ere long it escaped our skill, and we dared not continue the hunt; for we were drawing nigh to Dol Guldur, and that is still a very evil place; we do not go that way'


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Feb 20 2014, 6:00pm

Post #24 of 108 (952 views)
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i don't believe he would have the critical spirit of his son [In reply to] Can't Post

i think he would appreciate all the time and effort that went into bringing his stories to life as well as appreciate the success of the films too.

 photo 1bf768b4-0b33-420d-9c59-41ea3cf03def_zps1d44c4cf.jpg


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Feb 20 2014, 6:36pm

Post #25 of 108 (918 views)
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He would probably never see it, [In reply to] Can't Post

and never talk about it.

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