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Fredeghar Wayfarer
Menegroth
Dec 29 2013, 12:15am
Post #1 of 22
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Moon-letters question
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I just re-watched AUJ recently and now I'm puzzled by something. As Elrond is reading the moon-letters, he clearly says "And the setting sun with the last light of Durin's Day will shine upon the keyhole." Yet in DOS, it is not the setting sun but the moon that reveals the keyhole. Isn't this contradicting the first movie?
The whole scene felt a bit off to me. It seemed to drag the moment out longer than necessary. It also drove home the fact that almost every aspect of the book had been rewritten by Jackson and his team in this movie (I have lot of issues with DOS but that's another story). But more than anything, it seems like it contradicts the moon-letters instructions.
Thoughts? Apologies if this has been discussed already. Threads seem to come and go from this board very quickly.
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poochies
Ossiriand
Dec 29 2013, 12:28am
Post #2 of 22
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well the last light is reflected off the setting , last autumn moon...
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I'm thinking that translation that Elrond made didn't literally mean the last light directly form the sun,...
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Dec 29 2013, 12:30am
Post #3 of 22
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like "speak friend and enter" at the gate to enter Moria in FOTR. The moon is actually a light source believe it or not, it was a reference to the moonlight not the last light from the sun.
I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Dec 29 2013, 1:08am
Post #4 of 22
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The moon is not a light source.
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"Moonlight" is reflected sunlight. So, it was a trick riddle. But the trick was conceived by Jackson to prolong the tension, as in the book it was the real setting sun: "Then suddenly when their hope was lowest, a red
ray of the sun escaped like a finger through a rent in the cloud...."
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 29 2013, 1:21am
Post #5 of 22
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mouthing "When the thrush knocks". I knew that vital piece of the puzzle was missing. Then when the thrush did knock, I knew that the keyhole would appear. It wasn't the light, it was the thrush.
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Rembrethil
Dor-Lomin
Dec 29 2013, 2:51am
Post #6 of 22
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"And the setting sun, with the last light of Durin's Day will shine upon the keyhole."
Technically, the last light of the sun is reflected off the Moon. PJ played the scene for tension, to a mixed kind of feeling on my part. It seems such an obvious trope, that the minor deviation bugs me a bit, but we will see...
If it said 'The setting sun's last light...' we would have a problem, but due to the unorthodox syntax and grammar of English, PJ could do it. Technically...
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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patrickk
Nargothrond
Dec 29 2013, 3:14am
Post #7 of 22
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...the runes were lit by moonlight t Elrond, and I think this is the (sort of) riddle that Bilbo worked out; but PJ did milk it for what is was worth, and drew a longish bow (not for the first time) for dramatic effect. It also forshadowed a similar thing at Moria which Frodo (I think) figured out.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Dec 29 2013, 3:17am
Post #8 of 22
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and it makes alot more sense, like: "and the setting sun AND the last light of Durin's day will shine upon the keyhole." In other words, you needed both. You still had some ambient light from the sun after sunset, so you really had both.
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Altaira
Superuser
Dec 29 2013, 3:28am
Post #10 of 22
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the runes were lit by moonlight t Elrond, and I think this is the (sort of) riddle that Bilbo worked out; but PJ did milk it for what is was worth,
Yes, it was a bit of a classic PJ stretch, but it totally worked, and still followed, to-the-letter, the message on the map. It added a bit more suspense to finding the door than just working perfectly the way the map said it would. It was nice twist on the well-known talent of dwarves to make it super-hard to find their hidden doors (as in: even if you find and can read the moon letters on the map, you still have to be a bit clever about it), and I thought it was also brilliant to leave it up to our very clever Hobbit to work out the riddle.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Dec 29 2013, 3:47am
Post #11 of 22
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so a UV light which can cause plants to grow is not a light source? The moon creates light, its a source of light....its a light source.
I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Dec 29 2013, 3:53am
Post #12 of 22
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A UV light is a light source. The moon is not.
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It is no more a light source than a mirror. Both reflect light from some source but do not generate it.
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Dec 29 2013, 4:29am
Post #13 of 22
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could you define your definition of a light source? Because if my room is completely dark and i turn on a flashlight it becomes a source of light..."light source".
I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent
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arithmancer
Hithlum
Dec 29 2013, 6:51am
Post #14 of 22
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I thought this was a great scene. I liked Thorin, unbelieving as he re-read the instructions, Bilbo refusing to give up, Thorin coming back just in time to stomp on the key before it fell, and the lovely Erebor music.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Dec 29 2013, 9:20am
Post #15 of 22
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Where does UV come in to this?
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Yes, a torch is a light source because it produces (emits) its own light. The same way in which a candle or a match produce their *own* light.
The moon does not produce any light, but reflects the sunlight. If the moon produced its own light, then we wouldn't have the different moon phases as it revolved around the Earth. As Elizabeth said, the moon is much as a light source as a mirror is, because neither produce their *own* light.
Therefore, the moon is a reflector of light, or an "indirect light source". The sun is a producer of light, or a "direct light source".
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MTT Gandalf
Nevrast
Dec 29 2013, 12:01pm
Post #16 of 22
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Moonlight in reality VS moonlight in Middle-earth
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The moonlight is only in our real world a reflected sunlight, in Tolkien's "secondary world" the moon has an own light.
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tsmith675
Mithlond
Dec 29 2013, 2:34pm
Post #17 of 22
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It's such a small little change, I don't see the big deal...
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Plus, it still works and makes sense. And it added tension, and, every time I went to see it so far, everyone gasped when Bilbo almost kicked the key off the mountain. Anytime a director can get the audience so invested, that's something special. The added tension we got from everyone leaving made that possible. That's a win in my book.
"This day we FIGHT!"
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Dec 29 2013, 7:10pm
Post #18 of 22
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Then it wouldn't work to show the keyhole.
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"And the setting sun, with the last light of Durin's Day will shine upon the keyhole."
If the moon shines with reflected sunlight, this works. If it's Ithil's own light, it doesn't.
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Brethil
Gondolin
Dec 29 2013, 7:49pm
Post #19 of 22
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Maybe it comes back to the question of what exactly *is* Durin's Day?
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"And the setting sun, with the last light of Durin's Day will shine upon the keyhole."
If the moon shines with reflected sunlight, this works. If it's Ithil's own light, it doesn't.
Roheryn excellently brought this entire topic up a while back in the RR. I spent a long time looking at moon phases but ultimately I think the text answers the question with the riddle. I think a crucial and key fact lies in the idea that Thorin states about them being less able than ever to predict when a Durin's Day would come: “ The first day of the dwarves’ New Year is, as all should know, the first day of the last moon of Autumn on the threshold of Winter. We still call it Durin’s Day when the last moon of Autumn and the sun are in the sky together. But this will not help us much, I fear, for it passes our skill in these days to guess when such a time will come again.” They pulled the uncertainty out of the film - way too much to explain - but I think they are aware of it. So my feeling is that it cannot be merely a date *and* it cannot be easily foreseeable. I *think* (do you feel the limb I am on?  ) that it may refer to the day at the last sunset of autumn and the first moon of winter 'appear in the sky together'. I think this is a huge key and I think it refers to visible moonrise. The film seemed to capture this: that crescent moon slides out behind the clouds only a minute or two after the sun has set: presumably, then, four minutes or so earlier they were in the sky together. In which case - though it is a stretch, and an unexpected textual twist - in that interval BOTH the setting sun AND the Moon (the last light, of indeed what is a of Durin's Day) *do* shine together, though it is the Moon that ultimately lights the keyhole. But if it is visible moonrise that defines the day, then I think it fits the parameter of the riddle. As you and others point out Elizabeth, Ithil is its own light source, so it actually makes more sense that the two can appear together, independently of Earth's angle, and both contribute to the light in the riddle. A pet theory anyway!
Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Dec 29 2013, 7:49pm)
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Cirashala
Doriath
Dec 29 2013, 8:51pm
Post #20 of 22
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Technically the sun was not completely down yet. It had just dipped below the Misty Mountains to the west.
So they were still in the sky together. The dwarves just couldn't see the sun behind the mountains
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Dec 30 2013, 12:11am
Post #21 of 22
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the moon is a light source, why did the allies plan D-Day to fall on a moonless night??? Because the moon is a light source!! get over it.
I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Dec 30 2013, 11:01am
Post #22 of 22
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Yes, it is an indirect light source. /
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