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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 22 2008, 4:33am
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***FLIGHT TO THE FORD*** DISCUSSION 2/?
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Five days out till the the first bridge...
In the next section, there is more description about the hobbits and Strider going through the land. They go in a southerly direction for 5 days then turn northeast.
The most significant occurrence is that they come to the River Hoarwell or what the Elves call Mitheithel. This is the second river the Hobbits cross and the first of two that Strider and the hobbits have to cross together. What is the significance of water, and crossing it in order to get to where you have to go? Attributing to a Livejournal friend, sue_denimme, she has said in one of her discussions of this chapter, that water is a type of symbol .
It “signals that growth has occurred or that a point of no return has been reached. Examples: Frodo crosses a river to leave the Shire. He crosses another river to get to Rivendell. He crosses a whole lake to leave the Fellowship at Parth Galen. There's also the Nimrodel, the lake outside the gates of Moria, and the Dead Marshes. In past history: the Ring laid at the bottom of the Anduin for centuries; and Frodo's parents drowned in a river.”
When Strider and the Hobbits get to the bridge, they make sure that the Black Riders weren’t’ there to ambush them. As we find out later, Glorfindel was there to chase some off in the westerly direction--- do you think that is the reason why there weren’t any Riders there to trap them there?
“Whether it was set there, or let fall by chance, I cannot say; but it brings hope to me.”
On the bridge crossing the Mitheithel, Strider finds a single pale-green jewel—a beryl. What is its significance? Jewels have always been significant throughout the history of Middle-earth… they do signify hope, light and beauty, as evidenced by Arwen’s jewel, the Ring of Barahir, the Silmarils, light of Earendil…etc. Certainly this object causes wonder, excitement and even hope for Strider.
There is some geography about the Rivers provided by our friendly Ranger:
We have now come to the River Hoarwell, that the Elves call Mitheithel. It flows down out of the Ettenmoors, the troll-fells north of Rivendell, and joins the Loudwater away in the South. Some call it the Greyflood after that.
…
When Merry asks Strider what is the other river away in the distance, Strider answers:
That is Loudwater, the Bruinien of Rivendell. The Road runs along the edge of the hills for many miles from the Bridge to the Ford of Bruinen. But I have not yet thought how we shall cross that water. One river at a time!”
After this bridge, they leave “cheerless lands” into land that is steadily rising. Frodo recalls Bilbo’s account of his journey and first asks Strider if they’re in troll country in which Strider answers that the trolls do not build. Strider also answers that men once dwelt here but none remain now.” From the appendices, it is learned that there was a great kingdom of Arnor that was once occupying this space but war came about and Gondor’s Northern Kingdom fell to the Witch-king.
I love Pippin’s characteristic quote:
“Where did you learn such tales, if all the land is empty and forgetful?” asked Peregrin. “The birds and beasts do not tell tales of that sort.”
Why do we suddenly get Pippin’s full name here? Tolkien seems to like to do this at times, varying
from Pippin and Merry’s nicknames to their longer names.
And we get Strider’s response that “The heirs of Elendil do not forget all things past, and many more things than I can tell are remembered in Rivendell.”
This is the first time that we get a hint of Strider’s ancestry and a foreshadowing of sorts of who Strider really is. Did anyone jump at this quote from him and wonder if Strider really isn’t what he seems to be? Or was it too early for any conjecture of any sorts?
So Strider and the hobbits keep walking and now the “hills now began to shut them in…The travelers came into a long valley; narrow, deeply cloven, dark and silent.” The weather turns wet with rain and very cold. They are now 10 days out of Weathertop and provisions begin to run low.
Frodo feels much pain especially since it is so rainy and cold… It is definitely not conducive to him trying to recover. We hear the first of his dreams and his fears:
He lay tossing and turning and listening fearfully to the stealthy night-noises: wind in chinks of rock, water dripping, a crack, the sudden rattling fall of a loosened stone. He felt that black shapes were advancing to smother him; but when he sat up he saw nothing but the back of Strider sitting hunched up, smoking his pipe and watching.
“He lay down again and passed into an uneasy dream, in which he walked on the grass in his garden in the Shire, but it seemed faint and dim, less clear than the tall black shadows that stood looking over the hedge.”
This is the first instance that we have a hint of his “fading” into the Wraith world. Discuss the implications and what this dream might mean.
Fear is one emotion that the whole company and especially Frodo is feeling. He is dreaming of seeing familiar locations less clearly than before because he’s starting to feel the potency of the wound. He knows that the Black Riders are searching for him. In later instances during the same chapter, we see this reoccurring so it's interesting to note this happening first so that we know that this wound is not something ordinary; it is quite potent and any other person/ hobbit would not have resisted for 17 days like Frodo had.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Jan 22 2008, 4:40am)
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin
Jan 22 2008, 5:54am
Post #2 of 42
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It always bugged me that Strider's hair was grey flecked with dark strands rather than "dark flecked with grey", as the description goes. I do like how Frodo is in the shadows, though; talk about symbolism, eh?
Concerning Glorfindel: The Witch-king has a past with this elf. In 1975 TA the Witch-king fled from Glorfindel during the Battle of Fornost, so obviously this guy was afraid of the elf (I am one who also believes that he is the same Glorfindel as the first age Balrog slayer, so the Witch-king certainly has reason to fear him!) If he was afraid of him over 1000 years ago, I don't see why he would not be afraid of him now, especially so close to Rivendell. So, yes, I highly suspect that if Glorfindel was not there to chase them away, the Ringwraiths may have been waiting in ambush for them.
Concerning the Beryl: I haven't read the chapter in a while; wasn't it left there by Glorfindel? Left there by purpose or not, I can certainly see the elf-stone giving Strider hope. After all, one of his (many) names is Elfstone, so it would certainly be a very appropriate symbol to be left for him. I remember that Aragorn, later on, wears a brooch set with a green stone; is that green stone also a beryl?
Concerning the Bruinen: I never really thought of this before, but this quote has given me food for thought: But I have not yet thought how we shall cross that water. One river at a time! Now, as most of us know, Aragorn lived in Rivendell for 18 years, and Elrond raised him as a foster son. He has certainly been there a few times since he left there at 20. He is learned in history, seemingly observant, and close with Elrond's children, if not Elrond himself. How in the world could he not guess about the Bruinen being under Elrond's control? I'm sure he has seen the river act unnaturally compared to, say, the Hoarwell, especially since they come from the same source. This quote seems, well, not right at all. I am led to believe that, considering his background, and his state of the time (very tired), he only said that to deter Merry's questioning. He was never the most patient of people, it seems to me. But I cannot believe in any way that he did not know (or at least suspect) that Elrond could somehow control the Bruinen.
Concerning Aragorn's heritage: I was 11 when I first read the book, so I was not the most observant. I haven't read the book in full for many years, so I did not notice that quote until you brought it up. However, it is very interesting that Aragorn does decide to reveal his heritage to these Hobbits. He has been drilled for the past 67 or so years to not talk about his lineage with, well, anyone. A slip of the tongue could very well mean his death. Why reveal it now? I think he knows that, with the Ring found, it will be time to act and go out of hiding. While there was discussion of hiding the Ring in the Council of Elrond, perhaps he knew that it could not be hidden. He knew Elrond well, and maybe knew that he would not keep the Ring in hiding in Rivendell. The Ring is certainly connected to his lineage; it's appropriate that the heir of Elendil steps out alongside the Ring.
In the end, perhaps he knows by now that the Hobbits are worth more than they look, and that this is one of the first steps of mutual trust between him and the hobbits.
Concerning the dream: Frodo is one step closer to Wraith Land. To us normal folk of the light (something that can be debated, but in Tolkien's world, men/hobbits and the like seem inherently good) objects in good lighting are easier to make out, while objects in the shadows are, well, not. As an artist, I can clearly see this all the time when rendering objects. For Frodo it is the exact opposite; the shadows are clearer and more profound, while the greenery and other such things are dim. He is moving into the shadow world. One benefit of the shadow world is getting nightvision goggles, I guess ;)
Your last comment had me wondering: it is quite potent and any other person/ hobbit would not have resisted for 17 days like Frodo had.
Is this so true? We know that Frodo is a remarkable Hobbit, but how remarkable? Could someone such as, say, Sam survive for that long? And what about, say, an elf or dwarf? How long would they have survived? Would a dwarf's ability to live underground, in the dark, help him fighting off this "bad darkness"? What about an elf? Would an elf's pure light help him, or hinder him? And what about a man, especially someone like a Dunadan? Could he last for 17 days, with liberal usage of athelas? I am not so sure if Frodo is the only one who could. And did the Ring help him or hinder him in his survival?
Wow. This is possibly the most intellectual post I've ever written. Don't get used to it, I have no idea where this came from ;P
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Milady
Ossiriand
Jan 22 2008, 3:21pm
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You've brought up things I never noticed before, such as Pippin's naming and the mention of Strider's heritage.I also liked the picture: it makes Frodo look like a wraith himself, which confused me for a moment- probably what the artist intended.
Perhaps Tolkien's usage of the name Peregrin symbolizes Pippin beginning to take an interest in Middle-Earth, and the stories and legends around him. Over the course of the Quest he turns into a more mature person, and this may signify the start of that.
As to Strider's mention of Elendil...when I first read it, I didn't catch that. I did notice it a little later, but I didn't think much of it. Probably because at this time I wasn't too sure on who Elendil was, I assumed he was one of the great elves, and I connected him to the rest of Strider's line about Rivendell.
I myself would think Frodo's dream is just a symptom of him being a wraith, and that there is no significance, but if I was asked to go deeper, I would say that it's Frodo thinking of the Shire like he always is, but at the same time being slowly transformed. He is trying to hold on to his roots and being pulled to the shadows at the same time, and so when he dreams of his home it isn't the same as before.
Middle-Earth stands on the brink of destruction.
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jan 22 2008, 8:23pm
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There are some mythological mentions of beryl (mainly in the Hindu literature, which we can't expect Tolkien was drawing on, but also occasionally in the Teutonic). The beryl was also sometimes used as a talisman. Even more significantly, perhaps, there is the Bible. Beryl is mentioned in Exodus, Ezekiel, the Song of Solomon, and in this passage from Revelations 21*:
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city [the new Jerusalem] were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Some of these stones are mentioned elsewhere in The Lord of the Rings — e.g., chalcedony and emerald in Bilbo's poem of Eärendil; beryl and pearl in Gimli's poem of Moria; sapphire, figuratively, in a couple of different places; ditto, amethyst. The description of the many-gated city naturally also puts one in mind of Minas Tirith, at least to some extent. And we know that "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision" (Letters #142).
It would come as no great surprise to me if Tolkien chose beryl for this, or a similar, reason, though we can't be sure.
* Only in Revelations is it certain that the beryl, as we know it today, was intended — because the source is Greek; in the Old Testament cases, the precise stone meant by the word in the Hebrew original is not definite but has generally been translated as beryl.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jan 22 2008, 8:29pm
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I haven't taken the time to study these references closely, but for those who might be interested, beryl is also mentioned in The Book of Lost Tales, the poem "The Flight of the Noldoli", The Lay of Leithian, and "The Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon".
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 22 2008, 10:07pm
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Just a note that emeralds are beryls
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Beryl is a category that includes aquamarines, emeralds, and few less common gems. Tolkien seems to have a thing for emeralds; they show up in the Earendil poem, as well as in the description of the Elessar in UT.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Jan 22 2008, 10:24pm
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Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 22 2008, 10:28pm
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Just going from memory here, but I think sapphires and rubies (which are the same kind of stone) are 9 on the hardness scale, and emeralds and other beryls are 8.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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entmaiden
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Jan 22 2008, 11:11pm
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Can't remember where I read that sapphires are beryls. But according to Wikipedia, sapphires and rubies are aluminum oxide, but beryls are beryllium aluminum cyclosilicate.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 23 2008, 3:35am
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I never liked that picture either...Think it's from Ted Nasmith...
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I do like how Frodo is in the shadows, though; I just want to h/c my Frodo in this instance. :P Yes, that is good symbolism. WHen Frodo is in a shadowy GREY area, it means that he is between being two beings.
After all, one of his (many) names is Elfstone, so it would certainly be a very appropriate symbol to be left for him. I remember that Aragorn, later on, wears a brooch set with a green stone; is that green stone also a beryl?
That's a very good point-- I never thought of that way but indeed it is appropriate for Strider to get it because of his many names. Did he get this name because he retrieved the beryl at this point? Does a beryl look like an elfstone?
How in the world could he not guess about the Bruinen being under Elrond's control?
Maybe Elrond doesn't tell him a lot. Or maybe he deduced that the Bruinen is, but that doesn't mean that they won't meet the Black Riders there already guarding it and never letting them pass. And also, probably with hobbits, especially one weakened, it would be hard for them to cross. Was it ever mentioned that the Bruinen Ford have a bridge? It seems that we read later that the hobbits, Glorfindel, and Strider pass the River with no problem, but is it because the River has receded to a level that make you wade across it? Maybe Strider's concern is the water level of the river? Strider's concern is probably with the hobbity company he's with, it'll be harder to go across.
While there was discussion of hiding the Ring in the Council of Elrond, perhaps he knew that it could not be hidden. He knew Elrond well, and maybe knew that he would not keep the Ring in hiding in Rivendell. The Ring is certainly connected to his lineage; it's appropriate that the heir of Elendil steps out alongside the Ring.
In the end, perhaps he knows by now that the Hobbits are worth more than they look, and that this is one of the first steps of mutual trust between him and the hobbits.
Very good point~ I do think that ever since probably meeting with Gandalf, that he has realized that time has come for him to meet his destiny. He knows about the Ring and what it may mean.. Isildur's bane is found and therefore the crownless again shall be king.
I like the fact of the hobbits and Strider having some mutual trust... It's a long way in coming and they have more to go through before the hobbits can really trust STrider though, i feel. The Weathertop incident certainly didn't work to his favor though... But once they're in Rivendell, we hear from Frodo straight on what he thinks of Strider. :)
the shadows are clearer and more profound, while the greenery and other such things are dim. He is moving into the shadow world. One benefit of the shadow world is getting nightvision goggles, I guess ;)
I find that so fascinating. There are many instances of finding opposites in LotR. Good vs. Evil. Dark vs. Light, etc.
LOL about nightvision goggles~ but eventually Frodo doesnt' need it anymore. :(
The shadow world is interesting. I have more to say about it later when Frodo fades some more.... ;)
Is this so true? We know that Frodo is a remarkable Hobbit, but how remarkable?
No, i definitely think hobbits are the most resilient in dealing with the Morgul wound (especially Frodo). There are several reasons for this hypothesis. 1) Hobbits are inherently more innocent, so therefore them being not exposed to the dark would help them in not being seduced into darkness and into the wraith world. Their world view differs from other races of Middle-earth because view have seen battle and had hardships. They're so sheltered that they wouldn't want to think "evilly". It is true that some hobbits do not fall in this general mold but the majority that do possess an inherent simplicity that would help them battle this darkness.
2) A dwarf *has* seen hardships, has had fear, had battled much over the course of the time they've been in Middle-earth. I think their stubborn ways in dealing with jewels and crafts, their somewhat greedy nature, (to a certain extent) would make them more like wraith-like in seeing "eye-to-eye" with the Black Riders and falling to their power. Maybe they would last as long as a Man.
3) For an Elf-- i think his/her "pure light" would not help. Instead their worldly knowledge and general wisdom and sorrow for things and events that have passed would make them despair more. As we know how orcs come about, it does not take much to corrupt an elf. I mean they're strong but I feel like the hobbits' resiliency have something to do with them not falling into the wraith's power.
4) Frodo is special and he would probably fare better or about the same with Sam and Merry because he has determination, strength and wisdom that distinguishes him from the rest of the hobbits. As Gandalf and Bilbo thought, Frodo was one of the best hobbits in the Shire. It's true that he was foolish to have put on the Ring at Weathertop-- but that was beyond his strength to prevent. Falling into the wraith world took much of his strength and probably all throughout his time bearing the wound, he did despair but that despair did not lead him to give up or put on the Ring. Could you say the same for the man Boromir I who died from the wound?
I think Frodo would bear it better than even Sam and Merry because to a certain extent, Frodo lacks the worldly knowledge and experience of his fellow elf and dwarf but probably enough knowledge to know that he must resist and enough knowledge that would make him resist to the end. He does not know what may happen if he became a wraith but the reason why he faded so slowly is because he's a hobbit. Sam and Merry probably wouldn't last so long because of their age and probably Pippin too.
THere is no solid proof of this but it's just Frodo is between "knowing too much" and knowing too little and I think hobbits would in general bear the wound better and longer and prevent going into the wraith world longer. However, these situations and consequences do depend on where the wound was inflicted and under what conditions they face wearing bearing the wound. Maybe without athelas, Frodo would've been a goner by now.
There was a fanfic that explored the idea that Frodo was about to fade and become a wraith but instead had Sam killed him... It is very interesting and i'll link it to everyone here:
http://www.storiesofarda.com/chapterview.asp?sid=3966&cid=20094
&
http://www.storiesofarda.com/chapterview.asp?sid=5353&cid=22257
by Larner
The Ring probably hindered Frodo but it's interesting it gets no mention while Frodo falls into his dark dreams. Wouldn't the dreams tell him to put on the Ring so that the Black Riders could find him easier and become a wraith easier?
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 23 2008, 3:39am
Post #11 of 42
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Perhaps Tolkien's usage of the name Peregrin symbolizes Pippin beginning to take an interest in Middle-Earth, and the stories and legends around him. Over the course of the Quest he turns into a more mature person, and this may signify the start of that. And I think his name kind of matches him-- later in his life, Pippin does go abroad much since he's a Knight of Gondor and since he has such strong ties with Aragorn. Pippin does become a more mature person and his interest in the world shows his characteristic of being curious and inquisitive. This questioning is the start of how we see him-- as the curious, wanting to learn hobbit.
He is trying to hold on to his roots and being pulled to the shadows at the same time, and so when he dreams of his home it isn't the same as before. That is so cool. Indeed, nothing will be the same for him when he returns back to the Shire. :( This illustration of the dream he has is pretty powerful in showing that nothing is what it seems and also for showing that everything is becoming darker.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 23 2008, 3:52am
Post #12 of 42
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the beryl is not the "Elfstone"
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After all, one of his (many) names is Elfstone, so it would certainly be a very appropriate symbol to be left for him. I remember that Aragorn, later on, wears a brooch set with a green stone; is that green stone also a beryl?
That's a very good point-- I never thought of that way but indeed it is appropriate for Strider to get it because of his many names. Did he get this name because he retrieved the beryl at this point? Does a beryl look like an elfstone?
"This stone I gave to Celebrían my daughter, and she to hers; and now it comes to you as a token of hope. In this hour take the name that was foretold for you, Elessar, the Elfstone of the house of Elendil."
Galadriel gave this heirloom to Aragorn in Lothlorien, and he took the name "Elessar" because the stone itself was called that (or so I interpret it). The stone Aragorn found here in this chapter is not the Elfstone.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin
Jan 23 2008, 4:14am
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What I was wondering is if the Elessar was made of "elf-stones", or beryls, since they share the same color. I haven't read UT in a while, so I do not recall if the green stones are actually given a name, or if they are just shiny stones.
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 23 2008, 4:22am
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:-) mine wasn't worded very well
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I just included your part of the quote for context. I was really trying to reply to elentari's "Did he get this name because he retrieved the beryl at this point" question.
Here's what I really meant:
Aragorn didn't get the name "Elfstone" from the beryl he picks up in this chapter. The Elfstone ("Elessar") was an heirloom of Galadriel's family. Aragorn took the name "Elessar" from the heirloom.
Sorry for the misunderstanding due to my poorly worded response!!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 23 2008, 4:29am
Post #16 of 42
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I remember now... :blush: Thanks for the clarification. =) When did Aragorn get the elfstone from Galadriel? Was it in the last time he was at Cerin Amroth?
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jan 23 2008, 3:58pm
Post #17 of 42
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I've read that fanfic -- it's very good
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Can't Post
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Larner used to post here, or more often on Movie, but I haven't seen him/her for quite a while.
Where's Frodo?
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 23 2008, 4:25pm
Post #18 of 42
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It “signals that growth has occurred or that a point of no return has been reached. Examples: Frodo crosses a river to leave the Shire. He crosses another river to get to Rivendell. He crosses a whole lake to leave the Fellowship at Parth Galen. There's also the Nimrodel, the lake outside the gates of Moria, and the Dead Marshes. In past history: the Ring laid at the bottom of the Anduin for centuries; and Frodo's parents drowned in a river.”
On the other hand, if Frodo never crossed a river it’d prove he was a vampire.
When Strider and the Hobbits get to the bridge, they make sure that the Black Riders weren’t’ there to ambush them. As we find out later, Glorfindel was there to chase some off in the westerly direction--- do you think that is the reason why there weren’t any Riders there to trap them there?
“Whether it was set there, or let fall by chance, I cannot say; but it brings hope to me.”
On the bridge crossing the Mitheithel, Strider finds a single pale-green jewel—a beryl. What is its significance?
Glorfindel’s rhinestones aren’t firmly attached to his clothes. My wife has the same problem. In some outfits she leaves a glittering trail of sequins behind her.
Jewels have always been significant throughout the history of Middle-earth… they do signify hope, light and beauty, as evidenced by Arwen’s jewel, the Ring of Barahir, the Silmarils, light of Earendil…etc. Certainly this object causes wonder, excitement and even hope for Strider.
In Pliny’s Natural History, he lauds beryls as a cure for diseases of the eye. Or Eye.
Besides an ocular gem, Pliny also said it was an oracular gem, useful in deciphering the future.
There is some geography about the Rivers provided by our friendly Ranger:
We have now come to the River Hoarwell, that the Elves call Mitheithel. It flows down out of the Ettenmoors, the troll-fells north of Rivendell, and joins the Loudwater away in the South. Some call it the Greyflood after that.
Many Rivers to Cross (1955). I love that old Robert Taylor/Eleanor Parker movie. Robert Taylor sings!
“The higher up the berry tree,
The sweeter grows the berry.
The more you hug and kiss a girl,
The more she wants to marry.”
They just don’t write 'em like that anymore.
When Merry asks Strider what is the other river away in the distance, Strider answers:
That is Loudwater, the Bruinien of Rivendell. The Road runs along the edge of the hills for many miles from the Bridge to the Ford of Bruinen. But I have not yet thought how we shall cross that water. One river at a time!”
No exit strategy? Some leader! (Then again, some leaders do get away with it.)
After this bridge, they leave “cheerless lands” into land that is steadily rising. Frodo recalls Bilbo’s account of his journey and first asks Strider if they’re in troll country in which Strider answers that the trolls do not build. Strider also answers that men once dwelt here but none remain now.” From the appendices, it is learned that there was a great kingdom of Arnor that was once occupying this space but war came about and Gondor’s Northern Kingdom fell to the Witch-king.
All this external emptiness mirrors the wraith emptiness growing inside Frodo. It also reinforces Tolkien’s theme that evil cannot build, it can only destroy and groove on the rubble. (Come to think of it, has anyone ever seen Sauron and Jerry Rubin together at the same time?)
I love Pippin’s characteristic quote:
“Where did you learn such tales, if all the land is empty and forgetful?” asked Peregrin. “The birds and beasts do not tell tales of that sort.”
Why do we suddenly get Pippin’s full name here?
He’s being serious. It’s like when your mother uses your full name.
Tolkien seems to like to do this at times, varying from Pippin and Merry’s nicknames to their longer names.
How come Frodo is the only one without a nickname? Samwise-Sam, Peregrin-Pippin, Meriadoc-Merry, Fredegar-Fatty, Aragorn-Strider, Olorin-Gandalf. It’s like John Wayne’s character is the only one without a nickname in “Rio Bravo” (1959). (Dude, Stumpy, Colorado, Feathers, and John Chance.)
And we get Strider’s response that “The heirs of Elendil do not forget all things past, and many more things than I can tell are remembered in Rivendell.”
This is the first time that we get a hint of Strider’s ancestry and a foreshadowing of sorts of who Strider really is. Did anyone jump at this quote from him and wonder if Strider really isn’t what he seems to be?
I sniggered as my mind reworded: “and many more things than I can remember are remembered in Rivendell.”
Or was it too early for any conjecture of any sorts?
We’re kind of more concerned about a sick hobbit.
So Strider and the hobbits keep walking and now the “hills now began to shut them in…The travelers came into a long valley; narrow, deeply cloven, dark and silent.”
I’d like to know what your Livejournal friend made of that particular description.
The weather turns wet with rain and very cold.
It was a dark and stormy night.
They are now 10 days out of Weathertop and provisions begin to run low.
With the Nazgul on their tail they can’t live off the land. They can’t stop and hunt. Everything is going exactly according to WiKi’s evil plan. Mwhahahahahaha!!
Frodo feels much pain especially since it is so rainy and cold… It is definitely not conducive to him trying to recover. We hear the first of his dreams and his fears:
He lay tossing and turning and listening fearfully to the stealthy night-noises: wind in chinks of rock, water dripping, a crack, the sudden rattling fall of a loosened stone. He felt that black shapes were advancing to smother him; but when he sat up he saw nothing but the back of Strider sitting hunched up, smoking his pipe and watching.
“He lay down again and passed into an uneasy dream, in which he walked on the grass in his garden in the Shire, but it seemed faint and dim, less clear than the tall black shadows that stood looking over the hedge.”
This is the first instance that we have a hint of his “fading” into the Wraith world. Discuss the implications and what this dream might mean.
"There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am.”
We strongly suspect that many of Frodo’s dreams are sent by Gandalf. So it’s not unreasonable to suspect that some dreams are sent by other powers in the world. Powers that aren't so good.
Fear is one emotion that the whole company and especially Frodo is feeling. He is dreaming of seeing familiar locations less clearly than before because he’s starting to feel the potency of the wound. He knows that the Black Riders are searching for him. In later instances during the same chapter, we see this reoccurring so it's interesting to note this happening first so that we know that this wound is not something ordinary; it is quite potent and any other person/ hobbit would not have resisted for 17 days like Frodo had.
Like Gandalf said, Frodo’s eyes were especially bright. Lifeforce was strong in this one. So Frodo has a lot to spend. Of course, once it’s spent….
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 23 2008, 10:20pm
Post #19 of 42
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Tolkien seems to have a thing for emeralds; they show up in the Earendil poem...
Specifically, the green stones are the only addition Aragorn makes to Bilbo's poem.
"The Wise may have good reason to believe.... unlikely though it seems to those who know less. But may we not hear the proofs?" - Galdor
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Millican
Lindon
Jan 24 2008, 12:09am
Post #21 of 42
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As to why the influence of the Ring does not drive Frodo to use it to accelerate his descent into the Wraith-world... good one! Tolkien does seem to forget about the Ring at this point, doesn't he? As with so many other moments on this journey, and the ones to come, where the Ringbearer encounters Evil and has no particular interaction with it.
Is it a case of him losing touch with the ring in his story, or is it a case of him setting the ring aside and taking his readers into another direction so they do not ponder statements like yours:
"As to why the influence of the Ring does not drive Frodo to use it to accelerate his descent into the Wraith-world... good one!"
is it possible that Tolkien realized that he has gone so far in his story that the power he has given the ring would end the story there? or send his story a totally different direction? maybe instead of going another direction he kept the same course, abandoning the ring so that it did not screw his own story up (much less the characters in his story)?
On the other hand, you could look at the Ring not having the "step in the phone-booth and become a Wraith NOW" effect on Frodo as Frodo not being that far under control by the ring yet... or maybe while he still has a large company with him he feels as if he can more willingly avoid the Ring's suggestions? basically what I'm saying is that had Frodo been attacked on Weathertop alone, maybe he would have given in more easily...
I have no clue, I have a lot of reading to do, but there are some thoughts 
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Millican
Lindon
Jan 24 2008, 12:33am
Post #23 of 42
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Frodogrin?
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 24 2008, 3:27am
Post #24 of 42
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Frodo is special like that. :P I like Frodster though. :P
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 24 2008, 3:48am
Post #25 of 42
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Like Gandalf said, Frodo’s eyes were especially bright. Lifeforce was strong in this one. So Frodo has a lot to spend. Of course, once it’s spent…. I love that quote in Many Meetings "He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can." Your comment made me think of that.
Glorfindel’s rhinestones aren’t firmly attached to his clothes.
lol! Indeed they are not. :D
He’s being serious. It’s like when your mother uses your full name.
I do not usually get called by my full name actually... it's usually either my Chinese, a nickname, but never my full name. :P :D I guess i'm usually a very good girl. =) 0=)
Good point about Frodo not having a nickname! Frodo is my favorite name from LotR though...funny coincidence that he's one of my favorites too. Maybe i should think of a full name for him. :D
So Strider and the hobbits keep walking and now the “hills now began to shut them in…The travelers came into a long valley; narrow, deeply cloven, dark and silent.”
I’d like to know what your Livejournal friend made of that particular description.
I'm not sure... but i do not think it has great analytical value other than the fact that Tolkien used a lot of descriptive adjectives in there. I can actually feel myself being in there... it's quite a foreboding atmosphere. :-0
Amusing reply, mellon nin~ =)
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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It's more than that
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